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Author: Subject: Looking over the border: EU-Regulations
AndersHoveland
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[*] posted on 13-7-2013 at 17:56


The EU has been passing a ridiculous amount of regulations. They have been going on a spree banning things.
Often times, they give very little thought to how their bans will inconvenience certain people.

It almost seems like a huge power grab.

[Edited on 14-7-2013 by AndersHoveland]
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[*] posted on 14-7-2013 at 04:12


I wish this thread hadn't been moved even though this is its rightful place. It won't get much attention here, I think.

No, there's no 'power grab', just another kneejerk reaction without consideration for the unintended consequences of the 'War on Terror (TM)'. Or should that be 'War OF terror'?

Regards the latter, it would help if the West stopped endlessly meddling in the affairs of Muslim countries, stopped treating oil as if it was its birth right and stopped aiding and abetting the war criminals in Tel Aviv/J'sem in their quest to ethnically cleanse the remainder of historic Palestine. But since as we have no intention of doing any of those things, we'll always be 'fighting terrorism'. See also the NSA scandal.


[Edited on 14-7-2013 by blogfast25]




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[*] posted on 14-7-2013 at 05:15


Brussels really is all about regulation, and has been the Sacramento, Salem, Olympia, and Albany of Europe for some time. This will continue as lobbyists and legislators are never satisfied, due to their need for employment if nothing else.

Quote: Originally posted by ElectroWin  
instead of accepting that you will be made a criminal, you should lobby the government strongly


That would be like Texas abortionists protesting the new Texas abortion laws...uh, they don't care what you think, that's kind of the point...




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[*] posted on 14-7-2013 at 09:29


Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25  
I wish this thread hadn't been moved even though this is its rightful place. It won't get much attention here, I think.
As long as it remains active, anyone using Today's Posts will surely see it.



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[*] posted on 14-7-2013 at 10:00


bfesser:

It's the first time I've noticed that tab. Thanks for that.

Going back to topic: looks like a market for Ostwald kits, Ostwald 'How To' guides. 'Nitrates from Menure' and such like, may now open up. Early bird gets the worm!




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[*] posted on 15-7-2013 at 12:03


these items have major uses in analytical chemistry. how will labs be expected to be run?
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[*] posted on 15-7-2013 at 12:31


getting on your knees begging will get your head cut off, as stated by not only me they dont give the least of a fuck

agenda 21 is part of this, for those who havent read it or at least rounded WHAT that will be meaning to us all (yes you can take this as being related to chemistry, ALSO) then its time to get a look at it

without blending too much politics in it, seemingly russia, syria, china and iran thinks we are right, or at least not that the americans are

when the ban will come, if earth is still rotating at that point of time, then you should still be able to get a hold of Cu(NO3)2, at 160*C +- it decomposes into CuO and NO2 (:
rest is selfexplanatory
magnalium would be good if you want reactive metal powder
doubt they can or will ban magnesium.. (?)
they probably dont even know about magnalium yet, lol
otherwise extracting nitrates from the ground using dirt and ashes has been known for beyond long time
in scandinavia in old time huge farming areas was paid for to the government (king?) with actual KNO3 as they had massive need for blackpowder
procedure is simple as follows:

bucket is punctured outwards
a layer of cloth is added
thereafter is filled in alot of ashes from wood (bark and leaves have higher potassium content than wood itself, thistles is the ultimate)
then again cloth and the rest of the bucket is then filled with dirt, best is if its some place horses have grassed and the main point: taken a few hundred dumps and what not

the hot water runs through, collecting the NO3 ions, reacting them with the K2CO3 found in the ashes
below is found water containing KNO3, which can be boiled down, if the purity is low recrystallization is something they can never ban (;


i was kinda considering implying whats going on in the world, but the words mentioned alot in agenda 21 pretty well explains it ''sustainable growth''




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[*] posted on 16-7-2013 at 08:20


frankly i am disturbed by the attitudes in this forum, which appears to be to eschew activism in its cooperative forms, in favour of secrecy
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[*] posted on 16-7-2013 at 12:00


Quote: Originally posted by ElectroWin  
frankly i am disturbed by the attitudes in this forum, which appears to be to eschew activism in its cooperative forms, in favour of secrecy


Huh?

Explain.




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[*] posted on 16-7-2013 at 16:26


it's just that Antiswat 's response seemed to say, dont bother telling the authorities that you intend to find a way to get around their ban.

i dont think they will like that
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[*] posted on 16-7-2013 at 17:38


Electro, umm, your logic is...interesting...to say the least. Before you break laws you the people in charge know your plans? That usually doesn't work out so well, don't you think?

Would be wise just to keep to yourself and follow the rules as best you can. Why not be smart and start a small resell company, I plan too. Then I have a legitimate reason to have things.




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[*] posted on 17-7-2013 at 04:00


Quote: Originally posted by chemcam  
Why not be smart and start a small resell company, I plan too. Then I have a legitimate reason to have things.


Yes, at a glance people like me won't be affected but I need to study the small print.




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bfesser
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18-7-2013 at 04:03
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[*] posted on 18-7-2013 at 10:48


about what US might be affected by, infact its the US who seats the gentlemen who wish to have very tight regulation, sooner ONE currency, not many but one
thereafter 1 government, and one set of rules
1 system
1 people
or well 2..
the ones who are and the ones who are not slaves
anyhow these rules are 'first' in 2016




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[*] posted on 18-7-2013 at 21:29


Quote: Originally posted by ElectroWin  
it's just that Antiswat 's response seemed to say, dont bother telling the authorities that you intend to find a way to get around their ban.

i dont think they will like that



The later is the point....clear the ban is partly ridiculous, because you can extract nitrates from fertilizer and convert it to nitric acid or you use salt, electrical power and water for generating chlorate.

But that is not the fucking point....and everyone who thinks that it´s only a little problem, because I can circumvent this and give a shit at the authorities, sees not the total impact.

Ones more again:

The possession, preparation, concentration, extraction, to obtain, organize and so on without approval from the authorities will be against the law.

Every fucking piece of evidence can and will be used against you...

For example: We found some copper(II)nitrate at your home; our analysis showed that this is home-made. Where do you have the permit to use nitric acid with more than 0.1 (3)% to prepare that stuff?

Bingo...you are now guilty for possession, use, obtaining concentrated nitric acid without a permit.
Your chemicals, equipment will be seized and destroyed at your cost. You get a nice file at the police computer and in GB your DNA-Print joins the file.
You can be sure, that from now on even a order of fertilizer or harmless not forbidden chemicals where the seller your address has, will raise a red light (because of the background check) and perhaps trigger a further visit of the police.
Police traffic control will be in the future a nice experience for you....they will search your car, like the other guy who got caught with drugs and has a file in the police computer, too.

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[*] posted on 30-7-2013 at 10:35


Quote: Originally posted by chemcam  
Electro, umm, your logic is...interesting...to say the least. Before you break laws you the people in charge know your plans? That usually doesn't work out so well, don't you think?

Would be wise just to keep to yourself and follow the rules as best you can. Why not be smart and start a small resell company, I plan too. Then I have a legitimate reason to have things.


i'm not the one advocating breaking the law. i'm saying stand up for your interests. point out the huge economic impact of stupid laws. insist on getting invited to the table.
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[*] posted on 28-9-2013 at 13:25


Who cares? Only big problem arises with H2O2, but everything else one can manufacture himself. As long as they won't ban gypsum, urea, plastics and metal workshop tools, I feel safe. With these, including common household stuff like salt and soda, one can make everything from explosives to poisons to drugs to common chemistry stuff. One just needs to do some - work. It was a period of age in human history when a hobbyist could buy specialty chemicals directly from suppliers - but now they've got to return to the old bastards' times, when one had to do everything himself.

But hey, we got the internet, and through the net grows the knowledge. I'm gonna cook my own sulfuric and nitric acids and other nasties whatever I need. I prefer coke as a fuel - law books don't burn that well. :D
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[*] posted on 28-10-2013 at 22:54


I just found somthing pretty interesting about Canada regulations:

http://www.nrcan.gc.ca/minerals-metals/sites/www.nrcan.gc.ca...

"watch list":
Ketones
urea
hexamine
sulphuric acid
etc

and they also tell possible source of the material. I found it impressive to know that the authorities do know about theses sources for chemical. Although, here in canada, if one make an energetic compound but do not use it for other thing then research work he his in theory allowed to if in small quantity (probably less then 10g).

Canada Explosives Regulations (C.R.C., c. 599) (2013-03-18) Section 34:
"A person may, for the purpose of laboratory chemical experiment and not for practical use or sale, make a small quantity of explosive in a place that is not a licensed factory if reasonable precautions are observed to prevent injury to persons or damage to property and if the provisions of the Act and these Regulations are observed as far as they are otherwise applicable."




I never asked for this.
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[*] posted on 3-11-2013 at 08:07


Urea?

Are you serious?

I bet the next thing on the watch is gonna be sodium chloride or even hydrogen monoxide.
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[*] posted on 3-11-2013 at 14:13


It will sure be fun when hydrogen hydroxide and hydric acid are banned
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[*] posted on 4-11-2013 at 02:29


All the chemicals will be protected with licensing and controlling sooner or later. Fertilizers will be restricted only for registered company farmers, and individuals can purchase fertilizers where only urea is used as source for nitrogen. All the special uses, like labs and processes are covered with licenses.

The large companies won't be affected any of these regulations, though. A single license can easily cost between 400 to 30 000 euros or dollars, but billion-dollar industry it is just a chich, but on the other hand, a small company can barely stand these costs. All in all, every step will increase the costs of commercial products that customers buy. The industry always moves the costs to prices.

For the sake of reality, not everyhing can be ever banned, and from one chemical arises several others. Naturally, the routes for any chemicals can be effectively restricted by simply banning the sales of most catalytic materials and other reactive, basic chemicals.

In my country, this is pretty much reality already. The country is governed by few large companies, which sell only ready-mixed stuff for customers and DIY is really out of season here. Individual cannot buy ANY chemical labeled so without getting quickly raided. The few companies that sell chemicals, industry or research, cooperate with officials real time, and I have been raided just asking prices for some very common materials like acetic acid.

[Edited on 4-11-2013 by testimento]
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[*] posted on 12-8-2014 at 05:11


The regulations, discussed in this thread, are real and already have their first effects. One of the sellers from which I purchased chemicals in the past already quit selling chlorates and perchlorates and will not start selling these again.

What is even more disturbing is that even possession of pure chlorates, perchlorates, nitric acid more than 3%, conc. H2O2 and nitromethane soon will not be allowed anymore. This means that I will have to remove quite a few experiments from my website in which these chemicals are used. It seems that fines for making, possession and using of these chemicals can be huge and possession of these can even lead to imprisonment (concrete numbers are mentioned in the UK, such as max. 2 years imprisonment, but in other parts of the EU these things most likely will be similar)! E.g., writing about your succesful chlorate cell can be risky, you are not allowed to make chlorates! The same is true for making fairly concentrated HNO3 from NOx, air and water, where the NOx easily can be made from sodium nitrite (curing salt) and sodium bisulfate (pH-minus for swimming pools). I think that not the making of these chemicals is risky, but writing about your (succesful) experiments will become risky, let alone writing a fancy web page about these processes so that others also easily can do these things with commonly available materials and easy to obtain legal chemicals.

If results cannot be shared anymore safely, then for me the fun is gone and I may even quit when this becomes really serious :(



[Edited on 12-8-14 by woelen]




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[*] posted on 12-8-2014 at 08:17


Quote: Originally posted by woelen  

If results cannot be shared anymore safely, then for me the fun is gone and I may even quit when this becomes really serious :(
Oh no! That would be terrible... Although I do know what you mean about worrying about not being able to share results. That's something that I already have to think about often, living in Texas.



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[*] posted on 12-8-2014 at 11:08


Quote: Originally posted by BJ68  

For example: We found some copper(II)nitrate at your home; our analysis showed that this is home-made. Where do you have the permit to use nitric acid with more than 0.1 (3)% to prepare that stuff?

How could they tell it is homemade? If they claim they found impurities commonly found in homemade copper(II)nitrate, tell them it is technical grade, after all all reagents have impurities.
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[*] posted on 12-8-2014 at 14:20


I think he meant that just as an example, that if you had something that's not illegal but it could be deduced that you must have broken the law in order to make it then they could use it against you.

Even if they could do this (for this substance) it's unlikely they'll devote the time and resources to it, unless they're determined to get you at all costs like Al Capone.
Getting the subject to incriminate themselves is far easier and more cost effective.

You could say you made the Cu(NO3)2 before >3% HNO3 became a controlled substance.
You could say it's not yours, maybe the copper nitrate fairies left it there.
Use your rights and say nothing at all, make them work for it.
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[*] posted on 13-8-2014 at 15:22


woelen, feel free to move your content to the Sciencemadness Wiki if you want to take down your website. Or we can do it for you. Either way, losing your website would be a tragedy to everyone in the Sciencemadness community.



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