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Author: Subject: Looking over the border: EU-Regulations
Herr Haber
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Fortunately around here acetone can still be found in hardware store. Just checked the manufacturer website and it says > 95 % Acetone.
I guess the rest being hydrocarbons or surfactants.

Fortunately, the labelling on the products is very clear around here. If it's not "the original product" it's clearly labelled "Substitute of" trichloroethylene for example.
phlogiston
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Yes, mailinmypocket, it literally says "aceton" even though it contains none. This page shows the bottle: http://www.pearlpaint.nl/nl/merken-producten/eco-line/aceton...

The same happened with a product called ‘thinner’. This used to consist mostly of toluene and was excellent for all kinds of household and amateur science purposes but the eco variant (which is still labelled ‘thinner’) is an entirely different product, and now contains the same 2-butoxyethanol that is in the fake acetone.

The white spirit sold in most places has changed as well, judging by the smell of it, but fortunately it is still some kind of organic apolar solvent that is useful. I keep a bottle of the old stuff just for the smell of it. Reminds me of many enjoyable hours of woodwork and painting with my dad.

As woelen says, I believe it is realistic to expect such products to disappear very soon, even if no good substitute exists. Unless you run a business with a very good excuse to be needing them, you will not be able to obtain even very basic chemicals in the Netherlands (probably in all of Europe).

[Edited on 10-3-2016 by phlogiston]

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"If a rocket goes up, who cares where it comes down, that's not my concern said Wernher von Braun" - Tom Lehrer
woelen

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I see this development as a much greater threat for home/hobby chemistry than certain regulations, which prohibit sale of specific chemicals. Simple chemicals like dilute HCl, NaOH, simple organic solvents, ammonia, all disappear from the shelves. Especially young enthusiastic people who want to do basic but fun experiments will be put off very quickly if they discover that not even the most basic chemicals can be obtained locally. Chemistry then definitely becomes something of school, companies and labs. Young people must be really devoted to the subject if they want to start with online sources. They also will be dependent on cooperating parents, who order materials online.

If I look back at my own youth (in the 1980's) I did experiments with 30% HCl, 53% HNO3, acetone, basic metal salts, sulphur, KNO3, NaOH, KClO3, bleach, all obtained locally (there was no internet) at a cost of not more than a few tens of guilders (1 guilder then is comparable to 1 euro now) spread out over several months. I bought these chemicals myself, my parents allowed me to do this, but did not actively support this. I made Cl2, did electrolysis of acids, made NO2, made small crap pyrotechnic mixes with KNO3 or KClO3 as oxidizer, and so on. All these kinds of things raised further interest. Nowadays this hardly is possible anymore. With the neutered "chemicals" you can buy nowadays you can hardly do any interesting experiments anymore, at least not more than playing with some changing colors in a test tube or making bubbles of CO2. I am quite sure, that if I were at my youth nowadays, playing with chemistry would be considered as something unreachable, far away. Of course I would know of online shops, but a 15-year old does no online shopping abroad, has no credit card and considers such shops as something far away, useful for (semi-)professionals, but not for themselves.

For the older, more experienced, amateur chemists in the Netherlands these developments are less of an issue. I myself know my ways, I have a decent income and can afford online shopping, using eBay and a diversity of specialized online shops, world-wide. These restrictions affect new/young amateurs. The current generation of amateurs will grow older, hardly any new young amateurs will be added to the pool. I am afraid that 20 years from now, in the western part of the world amateur chemistry (and possible amateur science in general) will be near-dead, only practiced by a community of older people and only VERY few younger people.

[Edited on 10-3-16 by woelen]

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I watch these development in the EU from where I am (US) with the utmost dismay. Of course similar if less drastic developments have taken place here. I cannot tell you how much science I learned from a chemistry set in the early 1960's. By 1980, it was impossible to obtain such chemistry sets anymore, due to fear of liability.
What I have heard recently is that any "chemistry set" that can be sold now must contain only substances that are edible. in other words, it has become cooking.

I wonder if there are any forces that can stand up to this. Certainly the small number of worldwide amateurs on SM cannot do it, but there must be many people in chemistry departments around the world who understand the impact this deplorable state of affairs is having on the scientific education and development of young people.
Perhaps there is some way to mobilize university and perhaps high school educators to oppose some of this stupidity.

Any other SF Bay chemists?
Magpie
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These developments in the EU are also very discouraging to me and I feel badly for the European amateur. For the future of the US, well, I have always felt that if you want to predict the future of the US look at Europe.

There are some US societies, eg, AIChE, and especially ACS, that might have enough clout to influence lawmakers. But with all the worrying about drug-making and terrorism it's doubtful. I'm not even sure that the ACS cares enough to take a stand in favor of amateur chemistry.

However, if you read the acceptance speeches of Nobel Prize winners and the biographies of CEOs of leading science and technology based companies many fondly remember having home chemistry sets. Many say that those sets greatly augmented their interest in science.

The single most important condition for a successful synthesis is good mixing - Nicodem
Herr Haber
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Woelen, you are unfortunately right.

Back when I was Young I asked Santa for chemistry sets. These were nice, contained sometimes over 60 experiments to be made, glassware, chemicals etc.
It is with these kits (over the years) that I built a "lab" of some sorts. That and the help of an Aunt who was working on her doctorate in biology and living with us! Ok... maybe I stole some mercury from a barometer at school with a syringe too
With my Pocket money I could go to the pharmacy, ask for chemicals no question asked (even though the pharmacist was not stupid: what was I going to do with potassium nitrate, sulfur and... activated charcoal is all you have? I'll get it !
Since it was the same pharmacy my parents used to go they asked my parents if it was ok for them to sell me these chemicals and it was.
Well, my father had tried to make NG when he was Young, one of my uncles sent himself 2 times to the hospital with burns trying to make rockets (you know the advice not to put charcoal and KNO3 in the coffe grinder? well, one time he forgot about that).
Today there are no chemicals in the pharmacies anymore. Even getting ethanol is hard because the law makes it complicated for them. Sad... the first time I got KClO3 was in prill form from a pharmacy in Spain!

So me obviously, I wasnt going to be able to do much worse because my parents would see it coming a mile away...

Right before last Christmas, I looked up on the Internet what kind of chemistry kits were available nowadays.
The results got me sad. Not only were the kits empty of chemicals, there was no glassware (of course! it could break!) just flasks labeled with stuff like "Vinegar" and other things you find in the kitchen. There was even a printing "The adult in charge should get Sodium Bicarbonate from a general store"

So as I went to visit my parents for Christmas, I dug up one of the "really old" chemistry sets the aforementioned uncle had owned before I put my greedy hands on it.
Here are some picture of the content... And you dont get to see what was underneath: the glassware and everything you needed for a titration! And look at the chemicals! Powdered aluminium, lead acetate etc. Some "real" chemicals for impressive experiments
Notice the old nomenclature? Isnt that cute?

So you see, I've been thinking the same thing as you.
There will be no more hobbyists after us. They've made it impossible. What good is that for education? Research? I dont know. Many people I know who pursued a career in chemistry at the university have done less experiments than me. And I went to a business school !
Right after my interest in chemistry I got into electronics and made my first boards in water bottles cut in two as a bath for the FeCl3. At this time, there were stores called "Tandy" (a kind of "Radio Shack" all over the place.
These are gone now too.

It seems kids today are supposed to harass their parents for the latest smartphone or computer. There's a wealth of things to be learnt with computers too but still, it's not the same.

The good old days are gone. And I'm not even 40 yet!

blogfast25
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 Quote: Originally posted by annaandherdad What I have heard recently is that any "chemistry set" that can be sold now must contain only substances that are edible. in other words, it has become cooking.

Well, you've heard wrongly:

https://www.sciencemuseumshop.co.uk/experiments/chemistry_se...

It's a sorry state of affairs alright but exaggerating doesn't help our cause, IMHO.

careysub
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The list of chemicals ChemCraft supplied in the 1950s and 1960s (I don't think any of their chemistry sets included all of these in one set):

Aluminum sulfate
Ammonium chloride
Ammonium hydroxide
Azurite (Basic Copper carbonate)
Benzoic acid
Blank test paper
Boric acid
Calcium carbonate
Calcium chloride
Calcium hypochlorite
Calcium oxide
Calcium sulfate
Chameleon paper
Charcoal, lump
Charcoal, powdered
Chrome alum (Chromium(III) potassium sulfate)
Cobalt chloride solution
Congo test paper
Dye wafer
Ferric ammonium sulfate
Ferrous ammonium sulfate
Filter Paper
Iron metal, powdered
Litmus paper
Logwood
Magnesium sulfate
Manganese sulfate
Nichrome flame test wire
Nickel ammonium sulfate
Phenolphthalein solution
Sodium bicarbonate
Sodium bisulfate
Sodium bisulfite
Sodium borate
Sodium carbonate
Sodium ferrocyanide
Sodium iodide solution
Sodium salicylate
Sodium silicate solution
Sodium thiocyanate
Sodium thiosulfate
Starch, soluble
Stearic acid
Strontium chloride
Strontium nitrate
Sulfur
Tannic acid
Tartaric acid
Trisodium phosphate
Turmeric paper
Zinc metal
Zinc powder

This was a time in which they also sold an "atomic science" kit that included uranium ore.

[Edited on 11-3-2016 by careysub]
BJ68
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 Quote: Originally posted by woelen I see this development as a much greater threat for home/hobby chemistry than certain regulations, which prohibit sale of specific chemicals. Simple chemicals like dilute HCl, NaOH, simple organic solvents, ammonia, all disappear from the shelves.

There are two other threats which will have a negative impact. Okay one is minor and very special, but the other will grow and affect many areas of hobbyist and amateurs.

The minor one will have an impact on people which try that kind of alternative photography: http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=65443#...
Because after September 2017 Potassiumdichromate can only be used in the EU with Authorisation from ECHA see http://www.hse.gov.uk/reach/resources/19authorisation.pdf
Even if this issue is more a problem for people which are working commercially or making workshops, there are a few problems which can target the general public. E.g. look at the numbers 7 - 13 at Article 3 of REACH http://www.reachonline.eu/REACH/EN/REACH_EN/article3.html
IMHO it means or better it can be that even a private citizen with no business can be hit by REACH if they try to synthesize or prepare SVHC after the sunset date.

The bigger one is hidden in the numbers 28 until 30 of Annex XVII REACH Page 234 http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=CONSLE...
Make a long story short: CMR-Substanzes https://oshwiki.eu/wiki/Carcinogenic,_mutagenic,_reprotoxic_(CMR)_substances and mixtures
which contain them should be "Restricted to professional users" only.
E.g. that is the reason why the sale of borax to the general public is banned in Germany http://www.abda.de/themen/arzneimittelsicherheit/amk/amk-nac... (in German) Even at the MSDS of Sodium tetraborate http://www.dcfinechemicals.com/files2/Hojas%20de%20seguridad%20(EN)/115630-SDS-EN.pdf you will find "Restricted to professional users.".
So this list of CMR-Subtanzes is growing and more and more chemicals and mixtures will get banned...e.g. developer or toning baths for photography for non professionals.

Bj68

[Edited on 11-3-2016 by BJ68]

[Edited on 11-3-2016 by BJ68]
woelen

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Borax (sodium tetraborate) indeed is gone. In the Netherlands this cannot be purchased anymore if you are not a professional user. I was told that the same will be true for boric acid and boron oxide. Current stock will be sold, but there is no new supply.

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phlogiston
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You will not believe to what extent this madness is penetrating even professional labs.

I work in a laboratory in the Netherlands. Ethanol has been included on a list of carcinogenic compounds (https://zoek.officielebekendmakingen.nl/stcrt-2016-43.html) and as a result we now have to take absurd measures when working with it.
The protective measures we ought to take are essentially incompatible with daily work and are written by some guy in an office that hasn’t ever worked in a lab in his life. I am not joking, that is really actually true.

To cope with the sad mental image of the prospective future I have been increasing my oral intake of ethanol over the weekends.

A worrying side effect of enforcing overprotective rules is that people stop taking them seriously, especially if enforced upon knowledgeable professionals that are themselves very capable of making a realistic estimate of the hazards of the stuff they work with (indeed, any random chemistry student with a single year of university education is apparently more capable than our lawmakers in this respect).

annaandherdad, I have also been wandering about this but have not been able to conceive of any truly convincing argument or organization with sufficient power to make a difference. An indication of the level of current determination of the authorities to remove these and other products is the fact that now even products are being banned (1) for which no suitable alternative is available, and for which (2) the potential for misuse (terrorism or drug synthesis) is very limited or non-existent, as evidenced by decades of free availability without problems. Then I don't see any compelling reason for them to stop this process.

What is als interesting is that politicians must realize that banning products will not have the desired effect. AK-47s are not freely sold to the public in France AFAIK but the Parisians have recently learned the hard way that does not help much. Yet all of this is happening rather stealthily. Authorities are not adopting half-assed measures to show off for the next election.

[Edited on 11-3-2016 by phlogiston]

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"If a rocket goes up, who cares where it comes down, that's not my concern said Wernher von Braun" - Tom Lehrer
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blogfast---yes, it looks like Chem 3000 is a real chemistry set, and it's available in the US, too. The main complaints from users (on Amazon reviews) is that it doesn't include some important chemicals needed, such as 1% NaOH solution and silver nitrate. Apparently the Chem 3000 people are afraid of hazmat shipping charges, and they tell their customers that they must obtain these somehow on their own. These chemistry sets are popular with people who do home schooling.

I believe Elemental Scientific will also sell a real chemistry set.

However, the gradual disappearance of vital chemicals is happening here, too. For example, first iodine is banned, and now iodide salts (which you could use to make your own iodine). It's tough to get iodine from nature---it and many other substances like toluene have to be purchased, for all practical purposes for the amateur.

Some of the gradual disappearance of chemicals is due to regulations, and some of it is just due to general fear of liability. After all, if you ask a lawyer's advice about supplying kids with NaOH, what do you think the lawyer is going to say? And I expect people like Elemental Scientific and United Nuclear are indeed taking a legal risk.

phlogiston---yes, ethanol is carcinogenic, you'd better be careful. I'm so scared of it, I think I'll have a drink. A friend of mine works in a biology lab, and he says if he buys sodium bicarbonate from a chemical supplier, he has mounds of paperwork and restrictions to go through to use it, but that if he just brings it from his kitchen, it's considered ok. It is so stupid.

I have the privilege of being able to order chemicals through my university, and sometimes I buy from Sargent-Welch. Sometimes they have shipped glassware to my house, and sometimes they refuse. It seems to depend on how they're feeling. But they never ship chemicals to my house.

They use boilerplate warning labels on all their chemicals---in case of contact with skin, flush with water for 15 minutes and call poison control center. This for sodium chloride as well as sodium hydroxide.

When you have exaggerated warning labels on everything in sight, people stop reading them. You know when you buy a CD player or any piece of consumer electronics the instruction manual (if you get one) will have 15 pages of warnings. Is there anyone who reads that stuff? Obviously its only purpose is to defend the manufacturer against lawsuits. I doubt if anyone at the manufacturer cares if any customer reads the warning labels, or if they get hurt---they're aren't really there to protect the customer, they're there to protect the manufacturer.

Any other SF Bay chemists?
blogfast25
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 Quote: Originally posted by annaandherdad You know when you buy a CD player or any piece of consumer electronics the instruction manual (if you get one) will have 15 pages of warnings. Is there anyone who reads that stuff? Obviously its only purpose is to defend the manufacturer against lawsuits. I doubt if anyone at the manufacturer cares if any customer reads the warning labels, or if they get hurt---they're aren't really there to protect the customer, they're there to protect the manufacturer.

Just received an ice-cream maker as a present. First page of the manual: 30 'SAFETY PRECAUTIONS', one more risible than the next ('Do not allow the power cord of the appliance to hang over the edge of a table etc or touch any hot surfaces').

That's the result of our litigious societies of course: trying to settle everything through courts and having lawyers become very rich from that sorry state of affairs. Everything then becomes an exercise is *rse covering...

Magpie
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My son knows chemical engineers that work at a federal laboratory. Because it is so much hassle to acquire 95% ethanol they are buying Everclear instead.

The single most important condition for a successful synthesis is good mixing - Nicodem
gregxy
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This type of thing now effects things like owning a house.

My brother's water (in the garage) heater developed a leak so he called a plumber. The plumber charged him $1000 but recommend a "remediation expert" since a little water got on the drywall. The remediation expert charged him$2000 to set up some fans and told him to bill his insurance.
Even if the insurance pays someone has to pay for it.
careysub
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The whole litigation-averse thing is completely orthogonal to regulations.

In the Libertarian model of an ideal world there would be no government regulation, and *all* protection from bad practice by business would come from litigation - unless it is so bad as to be criminal. But even today this virtually never happens, comparatively light fines with no one going to jail being almost always the only result of even the most egregious bad behavior by business.

I don't see the litigation, litigation everywhere world to be any better than one with government regulation.

With regulation there is at least some chance of influencing government behavior through legislators.

In the EU case, it sounds like the STEM sector could actually come together to push back against excessive safety regulation due to scientific competitiveness problems. The trick is to get everyone onboard for a broad-based push-back across the board, if it is restricted to chem lab problems there won't be enough pressure.
BJ68
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 Quote: Originally posted by woelen Borax (sodium tetraborate) indeed is gone. In the Netherlands this cannot be purchased anymore if you are not a professional user. I was told that the same will be true for boric acid and boron oxide. Current stock will be sold, but there is no new supply.

I would be interested in the reasons for that? Why are they restricting CMR-Substances for "non professionals"?
Okay they can argue that professionals have more knowledge...in theory...but come on if you have ever worked in a small company or if you know some craftsman, you know that the knowledge is not so good (mostly) and at least even non-professionals can gather enough knowledge to handle that stuff safely.
This restriction has even a negative impact at environmental and safety issues:
Nice example: Cobalt-Compunds (Cobalt nitrate or - chloride), they are not allowed to sell at general public, because they are CRM-Substances. So now people are taking cobalt ore or alloys with high cobalt content and put it in acid to synthesize there small batch of cobalt salts. The amounts (volumes) getting bigger, there will be more waste produced and sometimes toxic gases, too. Below the line this process will be more dangerous for people, for the environment as if the person can got to the chemical dealer and buy 50 g of Cobalt(II)chloride. There will be no run at CRM-Substances and they will not be sold at the supermarket...but the ban for "non-professionals" should be lifted, because the counter-measures what interested people will do are sometimes counterproductive.

bombjack
woelen

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What I notice, however, is that although these products are banned from OTC sources, they can be purchased from specialized hobby shops, catering to the home chemist. Cobaltous chloride, borax, boric acid and many other things (even stuff like benzene, carbon tetrachloride, mercury salts) can be purchased from companies like Hinmeijer and Labstuff. So, apparently there is not a ban on the chemical itself as a specialty product, but for use in OTC products (e.g. cleaning stuff, general hobby equipment or consumables). You will not find cobaltous chloride at a drugstore anymore as a humidity indicator, but it still can be obtained.

The art of wondering makes life worth living...
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blogfast25
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 Quote: Originally posted by woelen What I notice, however, is that although these products are banned from OTC sources, they can be purchased from specialized hobby shops, catering to the home chemist. Cobaltous chloride, borax, boric acid and many other things (even stuff like benzene, carbon tetrachloride, mercury salts) can be purchased from companies like Hinmeijer and Labstuff. So, apparently there is not a ban on the chemical itself as a specialty product, but for use in OTC products (e.g. cleaning stuff, general hobby equipment or consumables). You will not find cobaltous chloride at a drugstore anymore as a humidity indicator, but it still can be obtained.

There have been some outright bans (with exemptions) like dichromates and nitric acid too, though.

woelen

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Yes, certain chemicals are really banned for private users, but for a different reason. These are
- nitric acid, > 3%
- hydrogen peroxide, > 12%
- nitromethane, > 30%
- potassium chlorate/perchlorate, > 40%
- sodium chlorate/perchlorate, > 40%

These chemicals cannot be purchased anymore, not at all. Private users should have no access to them, because they can be abused for making explosives.

This regulation is different from the one for e.g. potassium dichromate or borax. The latter two chemicals still can be purchased, but only as a specialty chemical, not as (part of) an OTC product, meant to be used by the general public and to be sold by general shops, such as hardware stores and hobby and art suppliers. Sale as cleaning agent, mordant, or sale as contrast enhancer for black and white photography is not allowed anymore.

This latter kind of regulation should result in much less usage of the chemical by the general public. The few persons who use it as a specialty product (e.g. for experiments) are not considered a problem, at least not in NL.

[Edited on 12-3-16 by woelen]

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BJ68
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 Quote: Originally posted by woelen What I notice, however, is that although these products are banned from OTC sources, they can be purchased from specialized hobby shops, catering to the home chemist. Cobaltous chloride, borax, boric acid and many other things (even stuff like benzene, carbon tetrachloride, mercury salts) can be purchased from companies like Hinmeijer and Labstuff. So, apparently there is not a ban on the chemical itself as a specialty product, but for use in OTC products (e.g. cleaning stuff, general hobby equipment or consumables). You will not find cobaltous chloride at a drugstore anymore as a humidity indicator, but it still can be obtained.

Interesting because in Germany the sale is forbidden if they are for the private end-user. See: [...]2. Stoffe und Zubereitungen, die Stoffe nach Spalte 1 enthalten, die die Konzentrationsgrenzen, wie sie in Spalte 2 der Nummern 29 bis 31 des Anhangs I der in Spalte 1 genannten Richtlinie festgelegt sind, erreichen oder überschreiten, dürfen nicht an den privaten Endverbraucher abgegeben werden.[...]
http://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/chemverbotsv/anhang.html

And a home chemist is for German companies identical with a private end-user and even if you have expert knowledge you will count as private user. I am PTA (pharmaceutical technician), which is mentioned in §5 Abs. 1 Nr. 4 http://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/chemverbotsv/__5.html and if I incorporate a chemical company I can sell chemicals without additional examination, this whole thing do not count.
Few years ago I asked one guy of a big chemical selling company, if it is possible to get chemcicals from them. They said no, at my question why, because I have the "Fachkenntnis" he said, that at a found company there are other authorities like trade supervisory authority which will look over you for security reasons....

BJ68

[Edited on 12-3-2016 by BJ68]
BJ68
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Update on Regulation 98/2013:

To whom it may concern and who is interested:

a) Threat assessment of matchsticks:
 Quote: [...]The Commission reported back from consultations held with the European Chemicals Agency (ECHA), and internally (with the JRC, the REACH Unit in DG GROW, and also the Commission's Legal Service), on the question of whether or not matchsticks fall under Regulation 98/2013. Consultations seem to indicate that matchsticks cannot be exempted from the Regulation on the grounds that they are articles as defined in REACH. At this stage, the Commission has therefore followed the current practice in the Regulation to calculate the concentration when there is a combination of a manufactured part and a substance (fertilizer granules). The preliminary view is that matchsticks do not fall within the restrictions of Article 4(1), but since they contain potassium chlorate, they are in principle subject to the reporting obligation under Article 9. However, following Recital (20) in the Regulation, the measures applied for new explosive precursors should match their threat level. In view of this, a threat assessment of matchsticks will be made in combination with the upcoming review of the Regulation. Some Members raised objections to matchsticks being a significant threat and falling under the scope of the Regulation. [...]

 Quote: [...]4. Presentation by the FP7 Research project EXPEDIA on inhibitor additives The EXplosives PrEcursor Defeat by Inhibitor Additives (EXPEDIA) project is an FP7 project coordinated by the Swedish Defence Research Agency (FOI). The project aims to 1) inhibit some frequently used explosive precursors and 2) increase knowledge about the so-called 'garage chemistry'. The project will develop a European guide for first responders. More information is available on the Commission's CORDIS website (link) and the presentation is available on the CIRCABC Library (link). [...]

Both from
http://ec.europa.eu/transparency/regexpert/index.cfm?do=grou...

c) Metal powders will be added to Annex II (watched chemicals):
 Quote: [...]Another Member announced that in the weeks after the meeting it would circulate a proposal to amend Annex II of the Regulation to add metal powders.[...]

http://ec.europa.eu/transparency/regexpert/index.cfm?do=grou...

d) Important for people who visit or even passing through Austria:

 Quote: [...]Introduction: Where a member of the general public intends to introduce those restricted explosive precursors (hydrogen peroxide in concentrations above 12 % w/w up to 35% w/w nitromethane in concentrations above 30% w/w up to 40% w/w; and nitric acid in concentrations above 3 % w/w up to 10 % w/w) into the Austrian territory the member of the general public has to transfer information appropriate to Art. 8 Regulation. (EU) No 98/2013 to the Ministry of Agriculture, Forestry, Environment and Water Management. [...]

http://ec.europa.eu/dgs/home-affairs/what-we-do/policies/cri...

Higher concentrations are not allowed for members of the general public and the fine is 500 Euro minimum (first time). This means that you can forget to etch copper, prepare silver nitrate with nitric acid, if you live in Austria and you are a private citizen.

e) Overview for the public:
http://ec.europa.eu/dgs/home-affairs/what-we-do/policies/cri...
Single measurements of the states: http://ec.europa.eu/dgs/home-affairs/what-we-do/policies/cri...
Say good bye to concentrated nitric acid in the EU....if you are a private citizen...

f) For US citizens in the case if you think you live on the other side:
http://www.darpa.mil/news-events/2016-03-11

Have fun......

Bj68

[Edited on 17-3-2016 by BJ68]
phlogiston
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Maybe one way to stop it is to fuel the fire.

If we can demonstrate the possibility as amateur chemists to manufacture something out of virtually anything, they will have to expand and expand the number of banned products untill we reach a point that it impacts their own daily lives. They'll have to rub two sticks together to start the barbecue. Or recharge their phone twenty times a day becuase batteries have been banned. At that point, they will have to understand futility of their approach.

Ultimately, they would need to ban things like seawater, pencils or platinum jewelry and sugar to stop a determined malicious individual. And urine and charcoal precursors (aka trees).

-----
"If a rocket goes up, who cares where it comes down, that's not my concern said Wernher von Braun" - Tom Lehrer
BJ68
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Barbecue will be forbidden, because you use charcoal and you know with this you can make a deadly poison like white phosphorous...with alchemistic greetings from Hennig Brand...

Slowly I get really pissed...this above issue and the other targeting gum printing see http://www.alternativephotography.com/wp/processes/gum-bichr...

Bj68

j_sum1

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Mood: juggling juggling juggling

The positive side of this is that, hopefully, some time just before the banning of tap water, someone will wise up and recognise just how ridiculous it all is -- not to mention futile.

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