Sciencemadness Discussion Board
Not logged in [Login ]
Go To Bottom

Printable Version  
Author: Subject: TNT without sulfuric acid?
APO
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 627
Registered: 28-12-2012
Location: China Lake
Member Is Offline

Mood: Refluxing

[*] posted on 28-2-2013 at 22:25
TNT without sulfuric acid?


I hate sulfuric acid and will not use it, and I prefer not to use nitric acid, but I really want to make DATNT, and obviously I need TNT first. I was wondering if there's a safer way to make the nitronium ion in solution for a nitration like this.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Ral123
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 735
Registered: 31-12-2011
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 28-2-2013 at 23:35


You can try to directly nitrate with NO2 at elevated temperatures. (compared to that nightmare, the normal nitration will look like a picnic :D)
Sulfuric acid is a quite safe acid. For example it's viscous, so it doesn't easily form tiny drops that fly everywhere from the smallest thing like WFNA. Just opening the WFNA may spray a line of drops. Other big advantage of the sulfuric is that it wont leave burns for life so readily. And the best thing about it is that you can open a bottle without gas mask in closed space if no one will be there afterwards :D
Safety googles always when you do even the simplest manipulation, like opening a bottle of whatever.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
APO
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 627
Registered: 28-12-2012
Location: China Lake
Member Is Offline

Mood: Refluxing

[*] posted on 1-3-2013 at 11:32


Really? Won't WFNA just turn your skin yellow really quick?
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Ral123
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 735
Registered: 31-12-2011
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 1-3-2013 at 12:27


WFNA is by far nastier then 100% peroxide, sulfuric acid or NO2. It easily flies away as small drops, doesn't hurt the first second and then somehow is quite efficient cell destroyer. In military navy missiles, they were looking at peroxide and N2O mostly from safety standpoint.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
APO
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 627
Registered: 28-12-2012
Location: China Lake
Member Is Offline

Mood: Refluxing

[*] posted on 1-3-2013 at 13:41


What will WFNA do to skin?



"Damn it George! I told you not to drop me!"
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Ral123
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 735
Registered: 31-12-2011
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 1-3-2013 at 14:07


Imagine molten metal.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Trotsky
Hazard to Others
***




Posts: 166
Registered: 6-2-2013
Location: US
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 1-3-2013 at 16:37


It is pretty terrible.

I'm not aware of any OTC source for sulfuric acid, though. I'm told it's in some drain cleaners, but I've never seen one that was H2SO4.
View user's profile Visit user's homepage View All Posts By User
neptunium
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 974
Registered: 12-12-2011
Location: between Uranium and Plutonium
Member Is Offline


[*] posted on 1-3-2013 at 16:40


molten metal? come on its not that bad ...if some splashes on your hand its like any other acid and base . it irritates a bit first but you wash it off
with water and everything's fine.....other than the brownish stain that disappear in a few days..lets not try to scare anyone and be as "real" as possible
this is not holywood ! people's flesh doesnt melt and smoke in the first few seconds!
as long as it doesnt get in your eyes and you can wash it off !

but let me get this straight,

you do not want to deal with sulfuric acid but you want to get TNT?
i dont get it..

[Edited on 2-3-2013 by neptunium]




View user's profile Visit user's homepage View All Posts By User
Bot0nist
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 1559
Registered: 15-2-2011
Location: Right behind you.
Member Is Offline

Mood: Streching my cotyledons.

[*] posted on 1-3-2013 at 16:53


worse than 100% peroxide??? if you mean hydrogen peroxide, then you are horribly misinformed. horribly. Hyberbole helps no one.

And APO, come on man. you think you can get proper nitrations and esterfications without strong acids or extremely harsh conditions? This is a CHEMISTRY forum. If your interested in explosives, why not learn the chemistry of them while your here... Just a thought.




U.T.F.S.E. and learn the joys of autodidacticism!


Don't judge each day only by the harvest you reap, but also by the seeds you sow.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
neptunium
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 974
Registered: 12-12-2011
Location: between Uranium and Plutonium
Member Is Offline


[*] posted on 1-3-2013 at 17:09


i see you put the same nonsense with picric acid...i know its a scientific forum but damn bro!
you want to do chemistry or buid sand castle at the beach?
H2SO4 is an extremely usefull acid for alot of reaction .like it or not you GOT to get use to work with it,
and like i said its really not the worse you'll have to deal with ......if you want to continue with chemistry of course




View user's profile Visit user's homepage View All Posts By User
APO
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 627
Registered: 28-12-2012
Location: China Lake
Member Is Offline

Mood: Refluxing

[*] posted on 1-3-2013 at 18:05


Oh, I've been taught that sulfuric acid will turn skin to ash immediately and that nitric acid will only turn skin yellow. The reason I'm comfortable with most explosives is because they are usually solids, which usually means that they are less reactive towards skin. Thanks, everyone. What kind of gloves will withstand sulfuric and nitric acids?



"Damn it George! I told you not to drop me!"
View user's profile View All Posts By User
CaliusOptimus
Hazard to Self
**




Posts: 96
Registered: 10-6-2011
Member Is Offline

Mood: Subjectively Objective

[*] posted on 1-3-2013 at 21:46


Quote: Originally posted by Ral123  
Imagine molten metal.


I can vouch for that, I've experienced moderate burns from both. I would actually prefer the molten metal... it doesn't yellow the skin. No comment on sulfuric burns.

Back on topic: NO!

[/thread]

[Edited on 2-3-2013 by CaliusOptimus]
View user's profile View All Posts By User
AndersHoveland
Hazard to Other Members, due to repeated speculation and posting of untested highly dangerous procedures!
*****




Posts: 1986
Registered: 2-3-2011
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 1-3-2013 at 21:58


Dinitrotoluene can be made by reacting toluene with 70% nitric acid for for half an hour, although there will be some small quantities of nitrobenzoic acid and/or nitrobenzene formed also (as the nitrobenzoic acid gets decarboxylated)

Nitrobenzene can actually be made by heating nitric acid as dilute as 60% with benzene for 1-2 hours. Some dinitrobenzene can also be made, but apparently it is rather impractical to get any decent proportion nitrated to this extent.

Quote: Originally posted by Ral123  
You can try to directly nitrate with NO2 at elevated temperatures.

NO2 can nitrate phenol at ambient temperatures.

But the reaction with toluene is more complicated. A little known fact is that nitrogen dioxide actually reacts at room temperature (20 °C) with toluene to form phenylnitromethane, where a nitro goup is actually added to the methyl group of toluene.

"Phenylnitromethane has been prepared by the nitration of toluene with dilute nitric acid in a sealed tube."
Konowalow, Ber. 28, 1860 (1895).
(the sealed tube probably implies heating)

At higher temperatures, addition of two nitro groups on the same carbon predominates. "nitration of toluene with nitrogen dioxide at a temperature between 20 °C to 95 °C yields a mixture of phenylnitromethane and phenyldinitromethane"

[Edited on 2-3-2013 by AndersHoveland]
View user's profile Visit user's homepage View All Posts By User
Nitro-esteban
Harmless
*




Posts: 39
Registered: 10-4-2013
Location: Fifth dimension
Member Is Offline

Mood: inert

[*] posted on 17-4-2013 at 19:20


Its best to use white fuming nitric acid for making dinitrotoluene, although the reaction is extremely exothermic.
View user's profile Visit user's homepage View All Posts By User
Oscilllator
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 659
Registered: 8-10-2012
Location: The aqueous layer
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 18-4-2013 at 01:10


Well I can personally tell you what red fuming nitric acid does to the skin, having spilled some on my hand. it stayed in contact with my hand for around 30 seconds before I dumped water on it. It didn't hurt at all, however the skin was stained yellow and remained that way until the skin shed off (this happens constantly, and I dont think the shedding of skin was sped up by the RFNA)




View user's profile View All Posts By User
caterpillar
National Hazard
****




Posts: 472
Registered: 8-1-2012
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 18-4-2013 at 12:59


Few drops of RFNA made a hole in my skin in one second. But 100% H2O2 is more dangerous- during its decomposition temperature goes up to 1000 Celsius. Anything that can burn will be ignited. H2SO4 is something really peaceful compared with such things.



Women are more perilous sometimes, than any hi explosive.
View user's profile Visit user's homepage View All Posts By User
caterpillar
National Hazard
****




Posts: 472
Registered: 8-1-2012
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 18-4-2013 at 13:09


Sorry, I forgot one thing. Usual preparation of TNT requires oleum- SO3, dissolved in H2SO4 and hi temperature. But, according to this "Organic Chemistry of Explosives" by Jai Prakash Agrawal and Robert Dale Hodgson, it can be prepared with the aid of nitrogen pentoxide. Quote: "Dinitrogen pentoxide in nitric acid is suitable for the synthesis of deactivated polyni-
troarylenes. This reagent has been used to convert 2,4-dinitrotoluene (3) to 2,4,6-trinitrotoluene
(TNT) (4) in quantitative yield at a temperature of only 32 ◦C."




Women are more perilous sometimes, than any hi explosive.
View user's profile Visit user's homepage View All Posts By User
AndersHoveland
Hazard to Other Members, due to repeated speculation and posting of untested highly dangerous procedures!
*****




Posts: 1986
Registered: 2-3-2011
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 19-4-2013 at 14:39


Quote: Originally posted by Oscilllator  
Well I can personally tell you what red fuming nitric acid does to the skin, having spilled some on my hand.

"Red fuming nitric acid" could be of any concentration, "red fuming" just means that it is saturated with dissolved NO2 gas.

If you did not get any burns after a 30 second exposure, chances are that the acid was not very concentrated. One should use much more caution with concentrated acids, ALWAYS wear long rubber gloves (chemically resistant butyl rubber gloves are specifically recommended for working with nitric acid) and protective eye goggles.




I'm not saying let's go kill all the stupid people...I'm just saying lets remove all the warning labels and let the problem sort itself out.
View user's profile Visit user's homepage View All Posts By User
Mildronate
National Hazard
****




Posts: 428
Registered: 12-9-2009
Member Is Offline

Mood: Ruido sintetico

[*] posted on 20-4-2013 at 03:57


Mechanism for PheME NO2 nitration please
View user's profile View All Posts By User

  Go To Top