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Author: Subject: Dimethylation of tryptamine via formaldehyde/STAB
TheMrbunGee
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[*] posted on 13-5-2020 at 13:22



Quote: Originally posted by mackolol  

I just want to explore chemistry behind it. So what does the scale mean if it's less than few grams it is worse to purify? And could my product be so poor quality that it doesn't behave normally?


I meant that if it's more, than it is harder with naphtha, because solubility of DMT in 50°C is roughly 2g/100ml, which is perfect for 2g extraction, but quite a small amount if one wants to dissolve 100g of the stuff, which is one of the little reasons to do synthesis instead of extraction. But as You said, exploration is one more, which is enough on it's own. What I can say is if sugar does not dissolve in water, it ain't sugar. (or it ain't water. :D)


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karlos³


It all depends on why one needs the DMT. I can't say much about synthetic DMT, but when it is extracted from a plant matter single crystallization from hot naphtha with less than a few % lost, result is really pure DMT, impurities being harmles if not introduced by solvent. There are plant matter containing close to 2% DMT. If substance is needed for personal use, a 1l scale extraction usually suffices.

If one needs it for further reactions, sure, go synthetic.

So what I am saying is, naphtha is an excellent solvent for DMT, but for small scale. And in subzero temperatures solubility of DMT in light naphtha goes negligible, which means little losses and reusability.

And plant matter is available widely, and there are many plants containing extractable DMT, but few are quite packed (2%), not legal in many places but some. Prices are about twice of NaBH4 compared with extracted DMT gram per gram. Including every other component of extraction.

And extractions are done completely house-hold. Dudes with little chemical background writing extraction write-ups like top write-ups here. :D

So I really don't see a reason for synth, other than being curious for chemistry or making bulk, for selling.


[Edited on 13-5-2020 by TheMrbunGee]




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karlos³
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[*] posted on 13-5-2020 at 14:52


Preservation of nature?
Less solvent fumes given off in nature too(naphtha, yeah maybe well, but not for extraction of an already much cleaner reaction mixture, we need something effective there and not selective, don't want to throw around liters of fluid).
Also, what do you pay for NaBH4? :o
I think you have no accurate depiction in mind of this.
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Cou
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[*] posted on 13-5-2020 at 18:00


Weird that DMT is illegal, when it's so unimaginably horrifying that after one huge dose, you're literally physically incapable of smoking it again because the fight or flight tremors prevent you from holding the pipe to your mouth.

DMT is very serious stuff. You could be sent to your own personal hell for what feels like years.

I think people are only interested in DMT because it's illegal. A forbidden fruit thing. If hallucinogens were available on the shelf, people would try it once, go "wtf why would someone want to mess with their brain like this" and never touch it again.

[Edited on 14-5-2020 by Cou]




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*evil grin* Yes, yes. Excellent. You, j_sum, Cou, aga...all of you just come on over to the dark side. That's right. That's right...
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karlos³
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[*] posted on 13-5-2020 at 18:29


I have right now my shirt on where I printed a DMT molecule on.
So, I obviously have the authority as a qualified expert to say something wise and thoughtful to your reply, Cou.
People can see that because of the shirt of course.

Usually it is true that the curious but not as enthusiastic explorers of the mind have a saturation limit.
And in case of intravenous injection, I remember that there is even a consensus how many experiences are enough for a lifetime, because of the guaranteed breakthrough experience if the dosage is right.

I had a friend who made it(not from tryptamine, from indole) and as a nonsmoker he saw no other option than injection of the fumarate.
Four times.
He could describe almost nothing, you saw how he grasped for suitable words and failed, and I'm talking about a well cultured man with 2 Ph.D.'s, a skilled piano player and one of the top clinical pharmacologists at Merck in his fifties, at the time...
Barely have you ever seen him with a look of utter incomprehension, unable to explain something, unable to comprehend something himself.
Not even "was it good?", well, it definitely "was", but besides that?

I liked that look, because from my own experiences smoking that stuff I remember similar little and can't neither verbalize anything.
And, which confirms that personal limit, I think the last time I've used that stuff... must have been 7-8 years ago.
I don't feel compelled to repeat it.

But I think that everyone benefits from such an experience.
Personal hell?
I really disagree with, harmless people like us here, who have more doubts and feelings of self-guilt and what not, usually don't experience a real horrible time ever, even if those expect that most often, yet the drug won't kick them in the butt in a bad way.
But give it to one of those self confident, ever grinning politicians in a suit... it will rip them apart and throw all the pieces on a pile, leaving a broken and shattered "human".
Really for those it should be mandatory. "You want political power? Ok, smoke this stuff first, we'll ask you again after".
Corruption would be gone in no time!
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TheMrbunGee
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[*] posted on 13-5-2020 at 23:29


Quote: Originally posted by karlos³  
Preservation of nature?
Less solvent fumes given off in nature too(naphtha, yeah maybe well, but not for extraction of an already much cleaner reaction mixture, we need something effective there and not selective, don't want to throw around liters of fluid).
Also, what do you pay for NaBH4? :o
I think you have no accurate depiction in mind of this.


In what way, I am now more confused about why would one need more than few grams of substance, as I don't think anyone should sell this on streets. (There would not be many takers anyway, and there are many other reasons not to do so.)

And for the fumes- as some of naphtha is released in atmosphere:
1) It is all extracted from earth to begin with. Literal tons of these hydrocarbons go in atmosphere by natural means, and many times more by industry.
2) The drop of solubility means one does not have to boil off the solvent.
3) For 2nd point - you can reuse the small amount.

Yes, sorry, had a different price for borohydride in mind. Anyway one can pay 20 euros for a plant matter where a gram of DMT can be extracted.

An for the friend of Karlos, IV feels like roughest RoA, one can make the DMT orally active, or vaporize it. But that is just my personal view on needles. :D





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[*] posted on 13-6-2020 at 01:46


I am curious, I do not plan on trying to synthesize any tryptamine but I am interested in a couple aspects.

1 is, melatonin is N-Acetyl-5MeO-tryptamine, you can de-acetylate it to 5-MeO-tryptsmine with NaOH.

Again this is to understand the science, I do not plan on synthesizing any drugs, but Alexander Shulgin has written some great documents in organic chemistry.

After de-acetylating the N group, would MeI methylate the N group to produce 5-MeO-DMT?

question 2 is has 5-MeO-DPeT, 5-methoxy-dipentyltryptamine been explored?

Again, I DO NOT want to synthesize these compounds, I am just curious about the science.

If you wish to U2U I am fine with that.,
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[*] posted on 13-6-2020 at 04:20


Quote: Originally posted by Syn the Sizer  
I am curious, I do not plan on trying to synthesize any tryptamine but I am interested in a couple aspects.

1 is, melatonin is N-Acetyl-5MeO-tryptamine, you can de-acetylate it to 5-MeO-tryptsmine with NaOH.

Again this is to understand the science, I do not plan on synthesizing any drugs, but Alexander Shulgin has written some great documents in organic chemistry.

After de-acetylating the N group, would MeI methylate the N group to produce 5-MeO-DMT?

question 2 is has 5-MeO-DPeT, 5-methoxy-dipentyltryptamine been explored?

Again, I DO NOT want to synthesize these compounds, I am just curious about the science.

If you wish to U2U I am fine with that.,


5 MeO tryptamine behaves the same as regular in matter of dimethylation. There are even procedures in this thread that call for 5 MeO tryptamine, but can be used with plain tryptamine. If 5MeO could be dimethylated with just MeI, the procedure with formaldehyde/borohydride would be unnecessary and even useless.

And for the melatonin, you can make 5 MeO tryptamine from it easily here's the link: https://erowid.org/archive/rhodium/chemistry/mexamine.html
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[*] posted on 14-6-2020 at 10:36


Quote: Originally posted by Syn the Sizer  
I am curious, I do not plan on trying to synthesize any tryptamine but I am interested in a couple aspects.

1 is, melatonin is N-Acetyl-5MeO-tryptamine, you can de-acetylate it to 5-MeO-tryptsmine with NaOH.

Again this is to understand the science, I do not plan on synthesizing any drugs, but Alexander Shulgin has written some great documents in organic chemistry.

After de-acetylating the N group, would MeI methylate the N group to produce 5-MeO-DMT?

question 2 is has 5-MeO-DPeT, 5-methoxy-dipentyltryptamine been explored?

Again, I DO NOT want to synthesize these compounds, I am just curious about the science.

If you wish to U2U I am fine with that.,


Methyl halides are able to methylate the amine. The problem is that, unlike the Eschweilier-Clarke reaction, methyl halides usually always form the quaternary ammonium salt. In this case, N,N,N-trimethyltryptammonium halide.

If you look at TiHKAL #6, Shulgin uses methyl iodide to form the N,N,N-trimethylammonium iodide. In order to get it to the N,N-dimethyl, he uses two distinct methods:

1. Plain reduction of the iodide salt with lithium triethylborohydride.

2. A replacement-type reaction with AgCl to form the chloride salt, then pyrolysis of the chloride salt under hard vacuum. Anyone who can find another example of this sort of reaction (pyrolysis of quaternary ammonium salt) gets 12 cookie points.




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[*] posted on 14-6-2020 at 11:03


https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/0030494800935648... like this?
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[*] posted on 14-6-2020 at 12:21


Interesting
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karlos³
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[*] posted on 14-6-2020 at 13:45


Eh, you can just boil the quaternary ammonium salt in ethanolamine to demethylate it.
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mackolol
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[*] posted on 15-6-2020 at 01:43


Quote: Originally posted by karlos³  
Eh, you can just boil the quaternary ammonium salt in ethanolamine to demethylate it.

I doubt that it works with tryptamine. I haven't seen any successful try on it in internet. Just one or two guys who just screamed that it has worked for them and no specific data neither any reply from them. For me it didn't work, after pouring water in, I was left with unchanged quaternary salt.
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