| Pages:
1
2 |
APO
National Hazard
Posts: 627
Registered: 28-12-2012
Location: China Lake
Member Is Offline
Mood: Refluxing
|
|
Deflagration on impact
My friend wants a fast burning smoke bomb that will ignite on impact, the smoke composition is 64cc of Potassium Nitrate, 28cc of Sucrose, and 8cc
High Fructose Corn Syrup, then I typically recrystallize it and while still in a molten state, I roll it up into a ball and stick it in a desiccating
chamber. He had an idea about adding those little "snapper" fireworks that have Silver Fulminate and Potassium Chlorate in them to some Ammonia in
hopes of extracting the Silver Fulminate. I said that it didn't sound very effective, since it may form a complex and be useless or may detonate under
the weight of the solvent. I thought about adding some 90% Sulfur to a Potassium Chlorate mix instead, but that's I've come up with so far. Anything
would be greatly appreciated.
"Damn it George! I told you not to drop me!"
|
|
|
Adas
National Hazard
Posts: 711
Registered: 21-9-2011
Location: Slovakia
Member Is Offline
Mood: Sensitive to shock and friction
|
|
Armstrong's mixture is very shock-sensitive, so tell him to take a VERY SMALL amount of KClO3 and mix it carefully with red P (or red P + some NH4NO3
for better burning). This mixture would not explode, because there is too few KClO3, but it will ignite the phosphorus.
At least in theory 
Rest In Pieces!
|
|
|
Motherload
Hazard to Others
Posts: 245
Registered: 12-8-2012
Location: Sewer
Member Is Offline
Mood: Shitty
|
|
Don't mess with anything more than a 1/2 gram..
Read my post in life after detonation thread.
I thought I was doing everything right with precautions ........ Wrong.
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=22554&...
[Edited on 7-4-2013 by Motherload]
"Chance favours the prepared mind"
"Fuck It !! We'll do it live !!"
|
|
|
ScienceSquirrel
International Hazard
Posts: 1863
Registered: 18-6-2008
Location: Brittany
Member Is Offline
Mood: Dogs are pets but cats are little furry humans with four feet and self determination! 
|
|
I would be cautious with a project like this.
The preparation of small amounts of materials that deflagrate or explode is not generally illegal if they are prepared in a spirit of scientific
enquiry and there is no intent to fabricate them into a 'device'.
If you were apprehended by the police carrying such a device or detonated such a device in a public place you might face legal consequences.
|
|
|
Ral123
National Hazard
Posts: 735
Registered: 31-12-2011
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Ball between electrodes. When you throw it, the ball falls from the impact and the electrodes touch. Then something ignites your smoke device. It's
the only reliable and predictable impact ignition solution.
|
|
|
APO
National Hazard
Posts: 627
Registered: 28-12-2012
Location: China Lake
Member Is Offline
Mood: Refluxing
|
|
More detail please, Ral123.
"Damn it George! I told you not to drop me!"
|
|
|
Finnnicus
Hazard to Others
Posts: 342
Registered: 22-3-2013
Member Is Offline
|
|
I know it sounds maybe toooo simple. The heads of strike anywhere matches... Then use a booster to ignite the sugar/ox mixture.
|
|
|
Ral123
National Hazard
Posts: 735
Registered: 31-12-2011
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Use some imagination. You don't need a drawing or something.
|
|
|
Finnnicus
Hazard to Others
Posts: 342
Registered: 22-3-2013
Member Is Offline
|
|
What would you use to create the arc within. And all the circuitry and pcbs would burn... Ewww. I don't think it would be very practical ral.
EDIT: Plus, I don't think self contained electrical ignition is what he's looking for.
[Edited on 8-4-2013 by Finnnicus]
|
|
|
woelen
Super Administrator
Posts: 7978
Registered: 20-8-2005
Location: Netherlands
Member Is Offline
Mood: interested
|
|
Quote: Originally posted by Adas  | Armstrong's mixture is very shock-sensitive, so tell him to take a VERY SMALL amount of KClO3 and mix it carefully with red P (or red P + some NH4NO3
for better burning). This mixture would not explode, because there is too few KClO3, but it will ignite the phosphorus.
At least in theory |
This is very bad
advice and is asking for BIG trouble! A red P/KClO3 mix is insanely sensitive. You say that a very small amount should be used, so there is no real
risk of a huge explosion, but there still is the risk of fire. What if the smoke bomb ignites while being transported, or while simply sitting in the
cupboard somewhere in a house? Red P + KClO3 has no use at all in pyrotechnics! I once wanted to make some of this, just for fun and wanted to ignite
it with concentrated sunlight. I put a few 100's of milligrams of KClO3 on a concrete tile. I put some red P on the KClO3 and took a flexible little
branch from a tree to mix the two chemicals. While I carefully mixed the two chemicals the pile suddenly deflagrated with an intense flash and little
burning drops of molten KClO3/P mix were sprayed around, some of them touching my hand. I had several tiny painful spots on my hand (very small, less
than 1 mm diameter). Even the careful motion of the chemicals with the little branch was sufficient to ignite the mix. I never needed the magnifying
glass to ignite the stuff.
|
|
|
Finnnicus
Hazard to Others
Posts: 342
Registered: 22-3-2013
Member Is Offline
|
|
How long ago would that be woelen? I have had some nasty run ins with armstrongs too, but I still love the stuff. I have found that 'diluting' with
sawdust seems to help.
|
|
|
woelen
Super Administrator
Posts: 7978
Registered: 20-8-2005
Location: Netherlands
Member Is Offline
Mood: interested
|
|
That was five or six years ago and since then I made the mix one time more, appr. 50 mg on a petri dish and ignited by tapping it with a glass rod.
This last experiment is on my website now:
http://woelen.homescience.net/science/chem/exps/raw_material...
|
|
|
Endo
Hazard to Others
Posts: 124
Registered: 5-1-2006
Location: USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: Cold
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by woelen | | Quote: Originally posted by Adas | Armstrong's mixture is very shock-sensitive, so tell him to take a VERY SMALL amount of KClO3 and mix it carefully with red P (or red P + some NH4NO3
for better burning). This mixture would not explode, because there is too few KClO3, but it will ignite the phosphorus.
At least in theory |
This is very bad
advice and is asking for BIG trouble! A red P/KClO3 mix is insanely sensitive. You say that a very small amount should be used, so there is no real
risk of a huge explosion, but there still is the risk of fire. What if the smoke bomb ignites while being transported, or while simply sitting in the
cupboard somewhere in a house? Red P + KClO3 has no use at all in pyrotechnics! I once wanted to make some of this, just for fun and wanted to ignite
it with concentrated sunlight. I put a few 100's of milligrams of KClO3 on a concrete tile. I put some red P on the KClO3 and took a flexible little
branch from a tree to mix the two chemicals. While I carefully mixed the two chemicals the pile suddenly deflagrated with an intense flash and little
burning drops of molten KClO3/P mix were sprayed around, some of them touching my hand. I had several tiny painful spots on my hand (very small, less
than 1 mm diameter). Even the careful motion of the chemicals with the little branch was sufficient to ignite the mix. I never needed the magnifying
glass to ignite the stuff. |
If you must try Armstrong's mixture one way to keep it from exploding while mixing is to use a solvent. I used acetone and with minimal stirring
could get the phosphorous suspended and ingredients mixed, scooping out the KClO3 phosphorous mix after allowing it to settle, and allowing it to dry
on squares of paper that had been twisted up while still wet with acetone allows one to carefully handle the whole mess by a tail. When thrown it
sounded like a pistol report, ringing ears and all.
|
|
|
Fantasma4500
International Hazard
Posts: 1677
Registered: 12-12-2012
Location: Dysrope (aka europe)
Member Is Offline
Mood: dangerously practical
|
|
if not using armstrongs mix (with high amount of red phosphorus) then you could try ClO3 + ferrocerium, its quite sensitive aswell, you can get it as
lighter flints..
|
|
|
woelen
Super Administrator
Posts: 7978
Registered: 20-8-2005
Location: Netherlands
Member Is Offline
Mood: interested
|
|
What is ClO3? This does not exist. Please be precise with formulas and also with writing style (use of capital letters, punctuation).
|
|
|
Adas
National Hazard
Posts: 711
Registered: 21-9-2011
Location: Slovakia
Member Is Offline
Mood: Sensitive to shock and friction
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by woelen | | What is ClO3? This does not exist. Please be precise with formulas and also with writing style (use of capital letters, punctuation).
|
He probably meant KClO3
Rest In Pieces!
|
|
|
Bert
Super Administrator
Posts: 2821
Registered: 12-3-2004
Member Is Offline
Mood: " I think we are all going to die. I think that love is an illusion. We are flawed, my darling".
|
|
Let me guess. Ninja smoke bombs? Kewl!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AAezUIPa3WE
Workable ignition train, but the video maker knows nothing of chemistry. Glad to see him wearing safety goggles, I would certainly don a pair of thin
leather gloves before trying to assemble or hand carry such a device. Burnt fingers are painful!
1. A dozen Silver fulminate torpedoes, disassembled and the contents used as the initiator. Good luck with the disassembly.
2. A bit of ground material off of a "metal match" fire starter rod mixed with the gravel/Silver fulminate from the torpedoes to produce enough hot
sparks to transfer fire to the smoke mix. The metal fire starter is probably mostly ferrocerium alloy, not Magnesium as the video maker keeps calling
it.
3. Rocket fuel, actually crude black powder from his description of the ingredients. He has scratch mix black powder, but keeps calling it sugar
rocket fuel.
As the video maker notes, mixing the black powder with the first fire will dilute it and possibly keep the device from functioning. To avoid this, I
would substitute a piece of black match embeded in the shock sensitive first fire mix for the loose black powder, with the match leading to a separate
package of fine grained rocket candy and a small ammount of 4FG black powder or equivalent to spread the fire quickly through the smoke mix.
Try not to hurt yourself. Everyone who works with such devices and mixtures will eventually have an accidental ignition, plan on this and wear
adequate safety gear, while keeping your quantities small and working outdoors at a place separate from other chemicals or mixtures that will make
your upcoming accident worse than it has to be.
[Edited on 11-4-2013 by Bert]
[Edited on 11-4-2013 by Bert]
Rapopart’s Rules for critical commentary:
1. Attempt to re-express your target’s position so clearly, vividly and fairly that your target says: “Thanks, I wish I’d thought of putting it
that way.”
2. List any points of agreement (especially if they are not matters of general or widespread agreement).
3. Mention anything you have learned from your target.
4. Only then are you permitted to say so much as a word of rebuttal or criticism.
Anatol Rapoport was a Russian-born American mathematical psychologist (1911-2007).
|
|
|
neptunium
National Hazard
Posts: 987
Registered: 12-12-2011
Location: between Uranium and Plutonium
Member Is Offline
|
|
what about sulfuric acid and potassium permanganate? separated by a thin glass ampoule? all insid your smoke thing? know what i mean?
|
|
|
Finnnicus
Hazard to Others
Posts: 342
Registered: 22-3-2013
Member Is Offline
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by neptunium | | what about sulfuric acid and potassium permanganate? separated by a thin glass ampoule? all insid your smoke thing? know what i mean?
|
With some skilled glass blowing that could turn out really well. But I'd still feel weird storing potential Mn2O7, errrrk 
[Edited on 12-4-2013 by Finnnicus]
|
|
|
Trotsky
Hazard to Others
Posts: 166
Registered: 6-2-2013
Location: US
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
How long are you planning on storing the thing? These things are best for immediate use only.
It takes a little bit for the stuff to react. If I were doing this I wouldn't use glass for sure. You'd want to come up with some sort of plastic
that'd easily tear or open under pressure or something. Mn2O7 has a tendency to detonate with fuel, not just make fire. If the amount were very
small the need for an instant Impact-Poof, it might work quite well. Otherwise some sort of grenade action- "pull pin" (mix) and toss (impact causes
contact with the new Mn2O7). That'd probably be the safest way to do something inherently unsafe. You'd be in control of the actual generation of
Mn2O7 but you'd be at a distance when it was introduced to fuel. The quantity you'd need would be very, very small, too, always good when dealing
with strong acids, manganese containing compounds and dangerous shit in general.
|
|
|
APO
National Hazard
Posts: 627
Registered: 28-12-2012
Location: China Lake
Member Is Offline
Mood: Refluxing
|
|
I would make it, then give it to my friend, then it's his problem.
"Damn it George! I told you not to drop me!"
|
|
|
Adas
National Hazard
Posts: 711
Registered: 21-9-2011
Location: Slovakia
Member Is Offline
Mood: Sensitive to shock and friction
|
|
It's good to see how much you care about your "friends"... Jeez..
Rest In Pieces!
|
|
|
chemcam
Hazard to Others
Posts: 423
Registered: 18-2-2013
Location: Atlantis
Member Is Offline
Mood: I will be gone until mid-september, on a work contract.
|
|
And if he hurts himself, or others, its your problem once again. Very bad idea to make energetic material for someone else. If they can't make it
themselves they probably don't know how to handle properly. Now that I know the motive of the OP and other peoples lives could be affected by this I
cannot offer any tips or ideas. It would seem sensible to no longer continue thread at this point.
[Edited on 4-22-2013 by chemcam]
|
|
|
Fantasma4500
International Hazard
Posts: 1677
Registered: 12-12-2012
Location: Dysrope (aka europe)
Member Is Offline
Mood: dangerously practical
|
|
i must agree with chemcam
refuse to give energetic materials to people you are not sure if about if theyre careful
in norway something of larger scale happened.. a guy who knew his ways around energetics was asked by his always loyal pyro-blow-stuff-up friend if he
could fix something up with him for NYE..
the type thats always around when you put in the blasting cap etc etc.. knows how a fuse works and such but not the chemistry behind it and such..
he made him 3.4kg apan
supposed to be let off on a hill out of town
the guy got a call from his friend at around 2400 saying the fuse was lit and it was burning infront of the school.
3.4 kg of explosives..
so he rushed down to his bicycle in hope to reach it before it went off
as he was rushing to try and stop it he heard the bang run through the city
story didnt mention what happened to his friend.. nobody was hurt except for +200 windows in near laying blocks and a +1 metre deep hole in the
asphalt
the guy who made it got 14 days in jail IIRC and he stopped pyro to calm down his neighbours, called the cops when he got out and told them to come
get it all..
you dont want this kind of situation.. i think for even putting together 3.4kg of secondary alone 14 days is NOTHING AT ALL
you really need to refuse when somebody that is clueless on how many ways it could go wrong handling it respectless, no offense..
anyways, i have an idea for you..
copper pipe
end capped off
fill with water
put in glass ampoule with sodium or potassium metal
when its thrown on ground it should ignite
i have heard white phosphorus topped bottles have been used for the same purpose
copper tubing because it needs a strong blow to cause actually dangerous fragments rather than bend metal AFAIK
perhaps some leadshots could be added to the glass ampoule
back in time i took a pencil size tube
2 5.5mm lead pellets
2 pieces of armstrongs mix from commercial fireworks (0.15g / piece?)
added abit of kmno4 mg flashpowder sealed the tube up and carried it the 10 metres to the front door and threw it at nearest wall
tube was very well sealed, this shouldnt be reenacted.. can go wrong very very easily if you forget what end of the tube the pellets are laying in
the mark is still there on the wall
long post i know, sorry if its bugging anyone (=
|
|
|
Finnnicus
Hazard to Others
Posts: 342
Registered: 22-3-2013
Member Is Offline
|
|
I think someone APO doesnt have access to alkali metals... Just a thought. Sorry to lokk like a n00b but whats APAN? NH4ClO4/NH4NO3? erk
|
|
|
| Pages:
1
2 |
![[*]](images/xpblue/default_icon.gif){kind=icon}
