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binaryclock
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Fertilizer Plant blows up in Waco, Texas
Get ready for more restrictions....
http://www.theatlanticwire.com/national/2013/04/fertilizer-p...
Here is a crazy youtube video of it happening, and the explosion. At first it's just on fire.. but 3/4 of the way through a MASSIVE explosion... keep
watching: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ROrpKx3aIjA
This is why you don't play with nitrates.
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elementcollector1
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I was just thinking that it could've been a rudimentary sort of ANFO at work. All they'd need is a good reducing agent.
Elements Collected:52/87
Latest Acquired: Cl
Next in Line: Nd
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chemcam
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HOLY SHIT! That poor little girl talking to her dad in the background saying she can't hear is going to haunt me for the rest of my life. What kind of
idiot gets that close to a burning factory, especially with kids. Morons like him are what get the restrictions placed.
*EDIT
Ammonium Nitrate will detonate explosively under strong heating so fuel oil isn't necessary in this case.
[Edited on 4-18-2013 by chemcam]
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binaryclock
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Update: West EMS Director tells KWTX-TV as many as 60 or 70 people dead, hundreds injured in fertilizer plant explosion. My god it's been a bad week
for explosions.
[Edited on 18-4-2013 by binaryclock]
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froot
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At that distance the noise and shock wave is one thing, flying debris is another.
Classic example of DDT.
We salute the improvement of the human genome by honoring those who remove themselves from it.
Of necessity, this honor is generally bestowed posthumously. - www.darwinawards.com |
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Finnnicus
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NH4NO3 is what's happening here? That was incredible!
Edit: Sorry, that seems insensitive, I do feel for these people.
[Edited on 18-4-2013 by Finnnicus]
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Rosco Bodine
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The explosion was heard and felt 60 miles away, with the blast reportedly producing an earthquake tremor measuring 2.1 on the Richter scale at the
nearest seismograph 23 miles away.
[Edited on 18-4-2013 by Rosco Bodine]
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binaryclock
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Quote: Originally posted by Finnnicus  | NH4NO3 is what's happening here? That was incredible!
Edit: Sorry, that seems insensitive, I do feel for these people.
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No worries mate. We are a scientific community discussing the blast, reaction, and the possible community response from this matter. It goes without
saying we all feel for them and you are just discussing the chemical reaction and how powerful it is.
Local notice issued:
If you are experiencing any of the following:
Irritation of the eyes, nose throat; Burns or blisters; Difficulty breathing; A pungent smell which feels suffocating,
Get out of the area immediately - This is likely to be Anhydorus Ammonia - It clings to the floor/ground and
can cause death in high exposure.
Interesting VIDEO to watch however be aware, this video shows total devestation of homes from the blast. So if you are
offended by raw video then do not watch. At 7:34 in the video, the guy immediately starts relating the explosion to a "meth" explosion. I find it
curious as soon as any sort of chemicals are involved, people immediately think of "meth" or the worst things criminal chemists can do. http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v...
A quote:
Why was the explosion so massive?
"The plant uses ammonium nitrate in fertilizer production, the same chemical used in 1995's Oklahoma City Bombing," says Siobhan Morris at Newstalk
1010. Timothy McVeigh used a truck packed with about two tons of ammonium nitrate to set off his deadly blast, killing 168 people and wounding
hundreds more. "The West Fertilizer plant may have had as much as 100 tons of the chemical on hand." SOURCE: http://theweek.com/article/index/242947/what-we-know-about-t...
[Edited on 18-4-2013 by binaryclock]
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DerAlte
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Here is a comparison with another real event. For those with long memories, the worst incident of this nature was the following (WIKI):
Texas City Disaster On 16 April 1947, the SS Grandcamp, loaded with 8,500 short tons (7,700 t) of ammonium nitrate, exploded in port at Texas City,
Texas. 581 died, over 5,000 injured. Using standard chemical data for decomposition of ammonium nitrate gives 2.7 kilotons of energy released.[14] The
US Army rates the relative effectiveness of ammonium nitrate, compared to TNT, as 0.42.[15] This conversion factor makes the blast the equivalent of
1.134 kilotons of TNT. This is generally considered the worst industrial accident in United States history.
Der Alte
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ScienceSquirrel
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Ammonium nitrate explosions;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ammonium_nitrate_disasters
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Intergalactic_Captain
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There are a few things that irk me right off the bat here... I live in WNY, and all the local coverage is following the same pattern as Boston -
Media blitz, normal programming, media blitz - test the waters to see what the reaction is. I, as someone who can look at this from an objective
perspective, as I'm sure most of the members her do, see this as most likely being an unfortunate industrial accident that happens from time to time
due simply to lack of proper oversight and/or a freak accident or three...
...That said, this is the legal section...
Point one - The "sheriff" that gave the soundbytes on my local station kept referring to "the anhydrous" as if it were some sort of WMD. In his
words, and I'm sure someone has heard what I'm talking about, "the anhydrous" was the same explosive used in OKC - And he goes on to ramble that it is
incredibly powerful and that's why the devastation was so great.
...The problem here is that this sheriff is speaking from his ass... The problem is that he's the top cop in the middle of meth country - Yes, "the
anhydrous" is a dangerous local concern - but not because it's an explosive (which it isn't), and not because it's a terrorist target (it's a
fertilizer factory, take the AN instead) - It's a local concern because the internet and rednecks exist and anhydrous ammonia is available in bulk at
a factory that deals with it one way or another (AN synthesis? bulk distribution? don't know, it's a fertilizer factory) - And that factory just
exploded, so the obvious answer is that "the anhydrous" must be at fault...
Second, the LE interviews on the news - "We will perform a criminal investigation first, to see if there is anything criminal about this... If there
is no evidence of criminal activity, then we will, um, go about it as if it were a normal industrial accident"... I'm sorry, is this not
ass-backwards? Yes, this is an incredible human toll when considered as human casualties in a modern american city - However, it's still an
industrial accident - It doesn't matter whether it was deliberate or purely coincidental - Shouldn't the primary focus be on what caused the event in
the first place, and the direction towards criminal or civil prosecution be made after that?
...I'm sure there's something I'm forgetting here, but all I can do is scream "Texas City!" and hope people can put two and two together and realize
that not everything is the result of terrorism... Who knows, but this one just screams long-overdue incident of random chance...
If you see me running, try to keep up.
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binaryclock
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To be a sheriff in "meth country" you should be required to have at least high school chemistry or first year university chemistry knowledge. These
are the guys making some life changing decisions based on their wisdom in life. It wouldn't be surprising to hear more fathers going to jail that are
just trying to teach their son chemistry at home.
For this reason I called my local police station and asked them 20 questions regarding home chemistry just to make sure there wasn't any odd laws like
Texas has concerning glassware.. He told me that I'd have nothing to worry about as long as I'm not purchasing large industrial sized equipment and
using common sense. Surprisingly, the cop that picked up the phone on the first ring and that I spoke with knew quite a bit about chemistry and was
able to advise me quite well. I was impressed.
I really am disappointed that it's not as easy for my son to learn chemistry as it was for me when I was young. I got a chemistry set with over 50
chemicals, half of them caustic and acidic. I remember having tubes of nitric acid, lye, powdered aluminium, and many nitrates. While I do
understand why companies stopped selling these sets, it is still disappointing.
[Edited on 18-4-2013 by binaryclock]
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watson.fawkes
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| Quote: Originally posted by Intergalactic_Captain | | the LE interviews on the news - "We will perform a criminal investigation first, to see if there is anything criminal about this... If there is no
evidence of criminal activity, then we will, um, go about it as if it were a normal industrial accident"... I'm sorry, is this not ass-backwards?
[...] Shouldn't the primary focus be on what caused the event in the first place, and the direction towards criminal or civil prosecution be made
after that? |
No, it's not backwards at all. If there was crime involved, an act of sabotage, say, then if you
want to convict the saboteur you need to preserve an evidence chain from the start. You don't get a good evidence chain when you try to go back and
reconstruct it; it's far weaker.
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DerAlte
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Pipped me to the post, W.F.!
@Intergalactic_Captain, who wrote
| Quote: | | Point one - The "sheriff" that gave the soundbytes on my local station kept referring to "the anhydrous" as if it were some sort of WMD. In his
words, and I'm sure someone has heard what I'm talking about, "the anhydrous" was the same explosive used in OKC - And he goes on to ramble that it is
incredibly powerful and that's why the devastation was so great. |
Before you immediately accuse the sheriff or deputy of crass ignorance, he was referring to anhydrous ammonium nitrate, which was the explosive is in
OKC (with the addition of some fuel oil). Ammonium nitrate solution will not explode, AFAIK, and is regularly transported around the country in
tankers by rail and even by road. The deputy, being in a rural area, and one where AN was actively being produced, would have known this. Also, solid
AN, anhydrous, is regularly used by farmers in Texas , with a bit of old oil, plus a blasting cap, to blow up trees etc. off agricultural land. AN
decomposes explosively at 210C, IIRC, and detonates. Hence the deputy is perfectly correct.
In other words, you are talking out of your ass. The legal angle is that AH is known to detonate if heated enough, and an arsonist, for example, could
have, set a storehouse on fire – a criminal act. If the problem is a manufacturing or handling prblem, OSHA investigates - after LE has established
a cause, if it can, or simultaneously as an aid to LE. Surely you can see you have it ass backwards, can’t you? What the hell has meth to do with
it?
Der Alte
[Edited on 18-4-2013 by DerAlte]
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DerAlte
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Associated Press report Thursday, April 18, 2013 5:19 PM EDT
"About a half-hour before the blast, the town's volunteer firefighters had responded to a call at the plant, (Waco police Sgt. William Patrick)
Swanton said. They immediately realized the potential for disaster because of the plant's chemical stockpile and began evacuating the surrounding
area.
The blast happened 20 minutes later."
Der Alte
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bfesser
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Does anyone have any photographs (or other videos, not by that guy with his cell phone) of the moment of the actual detonation?
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ScienceSquirrel
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Ammonium nitrate does not need any help or provocation to detonate.
Just stack enough kilos tiogether, start a self sustaining fire and it will explode.
If the stuff is in the presence of oil or another fuel then it is even more dangerous.
I highlighted a case where ammmonium nitrate had been prepared using spent acid from the preparation of TNT.
Wild horses could not drag me in to close proximity of a 50 kilo bag of ammonium nitrate contamininated with TNT but they had happily stockpiled tons
of the stuff.
Big heap of ammonium nitrate, familiarity breeding carelessness and bang.
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Rosco Bodine
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That is not entirely correct. Ammonium nitrate in large stockpiled quantity of many tons such as a manufacturing facility or in the hold of a ship
presents an exponentially greater hazard than does for example a few dozen bags or a few tons unconfined. Ammonium nitrate is quite difficult to
detonate without extreme provocation. Only a very specific, usually deliberately made and not storage stable crystalline form and density has low
enough critical diameter for ability to sustain a detonation wave through a mass as might be attempted to be used deliberately as in blasting. Of
course that limitation becomes less operative where the critical diameter is exceeded by a storage silo or a hold of a ship that may have hundreds of
tons of the material. You are correct that contaminants like fuel can sensitize the material and reduce the critical diameter for detonation as can
be true for any oxidizers. But high density fertilizer grade ammonium nitrate such as might be a bagged product stacked unconfined in a barn or
greenhouse or at a garden supply is not going to "just blow up" from a fire. It just doesn't happen. Under ordinary conditions, ammonium nitrate is
not dangerous in storage. It is when extraordinary exceptional and specific conditions are encountered that is when the danger arises. There are
many other relatively stable materials of commerce which can under specific conditions become explosion hazards.
<!-- bfesser_edit_tag -->[<a href="u2u.php?action=send&username=bfesser">bfesser</a>: removed
unnecessary quoting]
[Edited on 7/8/13 by bfesser]
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Endimion17
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When I first saw that vertical  video of a father and his daughter in a car, I've immediately noticed the vicinity of their parking spot. How on earth did he
come up with an idea to approach such fire? A fertilizer plant on fire. Geez, wasn't that an obvious clue?
And what about the firefighters and the police? Why haven't they established a perimeter? I've read that there were lots of people even closer than he
was.
Here's an example.
<iframe sandbox width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/tLWw24OQFdQ" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
Judging by the sound of the blast delay, father and daughter in the car were at some 200 metres mark, and the people in the embedded video seem to be
under 100 metre mark. That's insane!
If I lived in a town with fertilizer plant and it caught fire, I'd pick up my family and evacuate. At least a kilometre away. I remember PEPCON. OK,
fertilizers are less powerful than solid rocket fuel, but screw that, I like not being a disabled person.
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AndersHoveland
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It may have been the release of ammonia gas that accumulated into a cloud and ignited, causing an explosion which was then able to detonate the NH4NO3
that was sitting around in storage.
Especially with the large quantities of the fertilizer already in the heat of the blazing fire to begin with, that greatly increases the sensitivity.
Obviously individual bags of NH4NO3 are completely safe under normal situations. It is only HUGE quantities of the fertilizer sitting around that can
create a potential storage danger.
I guess the big agricultural corporations could just switch to organic farming. 
[Edited on 20-4-2013 by AndersHoveland]
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elementcollector1
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Is ammonia even that easily flammable? Also, it combusts to N2 and H2O, which are both nonflammable gases under these conditions.
<!-- bfesser_edit_tag -->[<a href="u2u.php?action=send&username=bfesser">bfesser</a>: removed
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[Edited on 7/8/13 by bfesser]
Elements Collected:52/87
Latest Acquired: Cl
Next in Line: Nd
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AndersHoveland
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It is actually very difficult to get NH3 to burn in air, it can only undergo combustion within a very narrow vapor concentration range, but industrial
explosions from clouds of NH3 have been known to occur.
Ammonia can ignite when it reaches a concentration of about 16 to 25 percent in air. The combustion temperatures can reach 650 °C. The anhydrous
ammonia tanks were also stored at high pressure, so could possibly have ruptured during the fire and been the cause of the main explosion. In other
words, an ammonia leak may have found an ignition source, started a fire, and then that fire may have eventually caused the other ammonia tanks to
explode.
[Edited on 20-4-2013 by AndersHoveland]
<!-- bfesser_edit_tag -->[<a href="u2u.php?action=send&username=bfesser">bfesser</a>: removed
unnecessary quoting]
[Edited on 7/8/13 by bfesser]
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Intergalactic_Captain
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| Quote: Originally posted by watson.fawkes | | No, it's not backwards at all. If there was crime involved, an act of sabotage, say, then if you want to convict the saboteur you need to preserve an
evidence chain from the start. You don't get a good evidence chain when you try to go back and reconstruct it; it's far weaker.
|
My point here was that if this happened at any other time, the coverage and media portrayal would be different. I work third shift, so I saw a blip
about an explosion in Texas on the news, heard the conspiracy coverage on Coast on my lunch break, and this sheriff's sondbytes on the ride home the
next morning. My point is that the first coverage on the matter was focused heavily on the criminal and terrorist potential, and that those being
interviewed were more than ready to jump on a criminal investigation before even considering figuring out what the hell actually happened...
| Quote: |
Before you immediately accuse the sheriff or deputy of crass ignorance, he was referring to anhydrous ammonium nitrate, which was the explosive is in
OKC (with the addition of some fuel oil). Ammonium nitrate solution will not explode, AFAIK, and is regularly transported around the country in
tankers by rail and even by road. The deputy, being in a rural area, and one where AN was actively being produced, would have known this. Also, solid
AN, anhydrous, is regularly used by farmers in Texas , with a bit of old oil, plus a blasting cap, to blow up trees etc. off agricultural land. AN
decomposes explosively at 210C, IIRC, and detonates. Hence the deputy is perfectly correct. In other words, you are talking out of your ass. The
legal angle is that AH is known to detonate if heated enough, and an arsonist, for example, could have, set a storehouse on fire – a criminal act.
If the problem is a manufacturing or handling prblem, OSHA investigates - after LE has established a cause, if it can, or simultaneously as an aid to
LE. Surely you can see you have it ass backwards, can’t you? What the hell has meth to do with it?
|
...Because NOT ONCE were the words "ammonium" and/or "nitrate" used. I'll admit that I'm not a texan, so maybe you're right - But I spent my entire
life in agricultural communities and anhydrous ammonia and ammonium nitrate are most definitely NOT the same thing. When the term "anhydrous" is
used, it is only ever in reference to anhydrous ammonia.
My concern, I guess, comes down to semantics and outright wrong information... Sure, anhydrous ammonia may have been present at the plant - I don't
know their process, but it's possible. The most likely thing that happened was a massive detonation of NH4NO3 - However, this cop, who considering
the area of the country he is in, likely has far more experience with meth cooks than high explosives - So he put two and two together, thought
fertilizer factory explosion and exploding meth labs, and decided that "the anhydrous" must be what happened... Now, do you get where I'm coming from
here?
...I could be completely wrong about everything I just said, only wanted to clarify what was apparently taken the wrong way.
If you see me running, try to keep up.
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watson.fawkes
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| Quote: Originally posted by Intergalactic_Captain | | My point is that the first coverage on the matter was focused heavily on the criminal and terrorist potential, and that those being interviewed were
more than ready to jump on a criminal investigation before even considering figuring out what the hell actually happened... |
Sure, I agree with that much. So the suspicion of criminal activity was overblown, but that doesn't mean the the LEO involved, once
he has that suspicion, who is taking care to treat the scene as a crime scene, is acting improperly. He might be wasting his time, but that's about
the worst thing that can be said. Yet also, though, in a media environment that inflames political anxiety, he would be prudent to say all these
things even if he himself puts no credence in them. Whatever else it is, it's not "ass-backwards".
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S.C. Wack
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Bretherick's:
Although there is a high lower explosive limit in air and ignition is not easy, there is a long history of violent gas—air explosions in
refrigeration practice, in which ammonia previously was used widely [1]....A report is given of explosion of a tank containing 7000 t of liquid
ammonia, in Lithuania, consequent upon thermal disequilibrium and ‘bumping’ of the liquid [10,11]. The liberated ammonia caught fire in the open
air, the first time this is thought to have been observed.
1. MCA SD-8, 1960
10. Andersson, B. O., Hazards XI, 15, Symp. Ser. 124, Rugby(UK), IChE, 1991.
11. Andersson, B. O., Ammonia Plant Safety, 1991, 31, 5
More relevant to us than the thread:
Mixtures of ammonia and air lying within the explosive limits can occur above aqueous solutions of certain strengths. Welding operations on a
vessel containing aqueous ammonia caused a violent explosion...added water vapour at 80C shows that aqueous solutions of below 5% ammonia content do
not produce flammable vapours at any temperature, and that above 49C no flammable vapours are produced by ammonia solution of any concentration.
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