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bio2
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Not sure of the GPM but I use one of those bathtub pumps with the suction cups for water massage as a condenser circulator from a beer cooler tank.
Lifts the water about 5 feet and still produces adequate flow. At 2 foot lift it needs throttling a little.
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ADP
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Sorry to bump an old thread but what is the difference in performance of a west condenser and a liebig condenser. Which one would be more useful for
let's say nitric acid distillation or something like that. Would there be a noticeble difference in performance?
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Quince
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The West condenser has a larger heat exchange area due to the large diameter inner tube. It's what I use, and I like it better than the Liebig.
This has already been mentioned a couple of times on the forum.
[Edited on 2-10-2005 by Quince]
\"One of the surest signs of Conrad\'s genius is that women dislike his books.\" --George Orwell
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chochu3
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To ADP:
The west condenser inner tube is thinner than a liebeg's inner tube and is the western standard of the distillation column which was to be improved
over what the liebeg was and is used for. In other words the west condenser is supposed to be more effecient at cooling the distillate because of the
thinner tube inside.
[Edited on 7-3-2006 by chochu3]
\"Abiding in the midst of ignorance, thinking themselves wise and learned, fools go aimlessly hither and thither, like blind led by the blind.\" -
Katha Upanishad
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Quince
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What the...
Yes, the glass is somewhat thinner, but the larger diameter of the inner tube is the main factor, increasing heat exchange area. Which is, what I
posted, and has been said a bunch of times over the forum. Why the hell did you wake such an ancient thread?
\"One of the surest signs of Conrad\'s genius is that women dislike his books.\" --George Orwell
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chochu3
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WTF because its a old thread I can't put my own input or what. Do you think you own where, when, or how I can post. In that case then your a punk
bitch and your just another punk in my book. I didn't say you were wrong but it also depends on the inner surface being thinner too. Or maybe your
upset cause you assume I think the west condenser is more effecient than liebeg's condenser and you assume I'm being bias. In that case I'm sorry I
made western created things look better than the old stuff made in the old world. Now you can reply to this message and say whatever you want or must
but I could care less cause your not my mother or father to tell me what I can and can't do and another thing you'll just contribute another useless
post which doesn't help in the spread of information. I rest my case.
As I said to somebody who wasn't you, it also helps with the tube being more thinner and also whatever somebody who is you said also holds true.
I apoligize if I have offended anybody; I've been here since the summer of 2003 and being visisting this board since. This is a great forum and this
will be the last time I ever post a reply as the one above.
[Edited on 8-3-2006 by chochu3]
\"Abiding in the midst of ignorance, thinking themselves wise and learned, fools go aimlessly hither and thither, like blind led by the blind.\" -
Katha Upanishad
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Quince
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Use an aquarium pump. You can get a 200 GPH powerhead for under $20.
\"One of the surest signs of Conrad\'s genius is that women dislike his books.\" --George Orwell
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Endimion17
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Has anyone of you ever encountered a Femel condenser? Stupid Google won't even let me search for it because it constantly thinks I'm looking for a
"female" one and thinks it's knows what I want better than myself.
Here's a sketch from one catalogue.
I've seen it in one old teacher's laboratory manual where it's used for just about anything, instead of a Liebig condenser. It doesn't seem to be very
effficient and it looks kind of stupid to me.
(BTW, I've been reading the posts here and I agree with Organikum about the so called "West condenser". It's nothing but a slightly modified Liebig
condenser. The name "West" is unknown outside English speaking countries, that's one of the clues. The whole world calls it a Liebig condenser.)
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Diablo
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Google will let you search for it if you click "search instead for femel condenser"
It looks a lot like a modified version of a retort.
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Endimion17
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No, it doesn't let me do anything. It probably has something to do with our different locations.
Showing results for "female condenser"
No results found for "femel condenser"
Oh, silly Google. 
I wouldn't say this is similar to a retort. The pear-shaped part is the condensing vessel, not the evaporating part.
It's like a double walled pear, pierced at one spot, connected to the right tube. The space between the walls is where the coolant flows.
The leftmost part is the connector for the receiving flask, and I assume it's connected to it with a wide rubber band, as it appeared in that old
manual... A weird setup, indeed.
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watson.fawkes
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Likely named for Jean Fernel, the 16th c. polymath who
coined the terms "physiology" and "pathology", and the author of the first serious treatment of physiology (in the West) after Galen.
The shape of the condenser fits Fernel's chronology. It's shaped like a traditional still head known as a "pelican", whence images of pelicans in
contemporaneous alchemical-allegorical images. The difference between this condenser and the pelican is the water-jacket sheath. If this is right,
then Fernel would be the inventor of water-jacketed cooling, in addition to his other achievements.
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Endimion17
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Could it be that m in "Femel" is actually rn? I can totally see how such an error could've be generated because of a bad printing
job. I have no idea where to look for such obscure information. Old book section in a huge university library?
One thing I don't understand. Why the hell would this condenser be used in a laboratory manual printed after the WW2? If it's really Fernel's
condenser, it's totally absolete. Liebig condensers were already common even during the 19th century...
I'll scan it as soon as I can.
The plot thickens. 
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99chemicals
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This is kind of irreverent but could you use a Graham condenser horizontally? Would the gasses push the condensate up the bends? and kind of start a
siphon?
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Hexavalent
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I'm certain that this has been discussed somewhere before, 99chemicals....and the answer is 'it depends'.
"Success is going from failure to failure without loss of enthusiasm." Winston Churchill
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Funkerman23
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This is just my opinion..so I may well be another noise source. But with all the questions regarding what condenser if best for what, why not have a
sticky posted on the subject? or at least a sticky with a thread directory for these kinds of FAQ's? I know I have asked questions more than a fair
few times looking for a proper"ether Condenser". Vogel's is a great reference but it does sometimes fall short.The Site's search engine isn't stellar
either but I digress.
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99chemicals
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Can someone elaborate?
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Endimion17
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Liquid inside a spiral cooler increases pressure inside the distillation flask, leading to increased temperature. That might pose a problem if the
thing inside it is prone to thermal decomposition at elevated temperature.
Also, it might lead to more bumping. The condensed liquid squirts out, making the pressure inside the flask go up and down, which leads to violent
boiling. You don't want that with things like ether.
Spiral coolers are meant to be positioned vertically or at a steep angle. They're not suitable for refluxing because they choke easily. I don't see
why would anyone want to buy a spiral cooler unless they're doing something special. Yeah, it looks cool, but it's expensive and when you get it, it
isn't that awesome. Liebig is enough for the majority of applications.
Liebig cooler, Vigreux column, air cooler (empty Liebig can be used instead). That's pretty much all you need.
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bahamuth
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Quote: Originally posted by Endimion17  | Has anyone of you ever encountered a Femel condenser? Stupid Google won't even let me search for it because it constantly thinks I'm looking for a
"female" one and thinks it's knows what I want better than myself.
Here's a sketch from one catalogue.
I've seen it in one old teacher's laboratory manual where it's used for just about anything, instead of a Liebig condenser. It doesn't seem to be very
effficient and it looks kind of stupid to me.
(BTW, I've been reading the posts here and I agree with Organikum about the so called "West condenser". It's nothing but a slightly modified Liebig
condenser. The name "West" is unknown outside English speaking countries, that's one of the clues. The whole world calls it a Liebig condenser.)
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Search phrase "Alambique de FEMEL" gives many hits.
One site mentioned that the distillation of Tetra (Carbon tetrachloride) as it's main purpose, and why so I have no idea..
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
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Endimion17
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Holy crap, that's it. I think this is the first time I'm seeing a real photograph of it. Thanks, bahamuth.
Yes, alembic was one of the first things that came up my mind while looking at the manual years ago... They're very similar. Now why would someone
want to use this thing? It's so old and doesn't look very efficient.
Once again, thanks. Great find.
[Edited on 28-6-2012 by Endimion17]
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watson.fawkes
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Indeed it does, and they seem to be all in Portuguese.
Proper names that are as old as this one is to my eye did not have canonical spelling until more recent times. This one, in particular, as Portuguese,
strikes me as deriving from the era of Moorish Spain, when Arab science flourished.
In any case, my other hypothesis is that the name is Nicholas Flamel, a more likely candidate, since he had quite the reputation as an alchemist.
Searching for "Flamel's alembic", amusingly comes up with a ton of reference's to Hugo's The Hunchback of Notre Dame. I don't know if it
would have been invented by him or merely named after him later; modern practices of authorship assignment were not present in Flamel's time.
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Mildronate
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| Quote: Originally posted by watson.fawkes | Indeed it does, and they seem to be all in Portuguese.
Proper names that are as old as this one is to my eye did not have canonical spelling until more recent times. This one, in particular, as Portuguese,
strikes me as deriving from the era of Moorish Spain, when Arab science flourished.
In any case, my other hypothesis is that the name is Nicholas Flamel, a more likely candidate, since he had quite the reputation as an alchemist.
Searching for "Flamel's alembic", amusingly comes up with a ton of reference's to Hugo's The Hunchback of Notre Dame. I don't know if it
would have been invented by him or merely named after him later; modern practices of authorship assignment were not present in Flamel's time.
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If Flamel invented this cooler, it was before Liebig cooler
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Endimion17
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I don't own an air condenser with a ground glass joint, so I was thinking of using Liebig condenser instead, without the water. The problem is that
its jacket makes it useless, as the heat accumulates inside. Air is an excelent thermal insulator. The condensing ring would soon leave the condenser
and fumes would start exiting the distillation apparatus.
What if I blow air through it, using an electric pump or just a large baloon with a stopcock? That seems like a fairly safe and efficient alternative,
but hey, everyone can make mistakes. Or I could just fill the jacket with water and plug the lower part.
Does anyone have any experience with such non-conventional setups?
[Edited on 5-7-2012 by Endimion17]
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Pyro
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how about water at room temp?
all above information is intellectual property of Pyro. |
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Endimion17
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You mean circulating the room temperature water? I don't have a pump. I could buy it, but then I could buy an air condenser, too.
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watson.fawkes
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It should work
just fine. Just beware that air isn't a particularly good heat transfer medium, so the condensation rate won't be all that high. Water is much better
for transferring heat. If you've already got an aquarium air pump, try it. I doubt a balloon will do much; there's not enough air mass to move much
heat.
You might want to make a shakedown run. If you've got a variable heat source (say, variac + mantle), put a solvent of interest (say, water) and put it
under reflux using the air condenser. Above the open top, put a watch glass with some ice; this acts as a vapor detector. Now turn up the heat under
your boiling flask until you get vapor condensing on the watch glass. That heat setting has now overtaxed your condenser. Run your reaction of
interest with this capacity limit in mind.
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