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MineMan
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Hennig,
I see where you are coming from. I look forward to your experiments, I see you are working on an EBW right now too from other post. It will be
interesting to see which set up you prefer. Good work, Good ideas.
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Laboratory of Liptakov
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I recommend use this: Page 3 this thread. posted on 17-11-2014 at 07:01
With PENT or MHN. It is easy prepare. Who it try, will be king of detonators of all science madness. So much PETN is spended on main charge, Why no
for detonator? ( I have not PETN... ...LL)
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MineMan
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LL,
I am not sure I understand what you are saying?
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Hennig Brand
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He is referring to a post of his made on that date and time in this thread. Last page of this thread, electrically heated resistor in center of low
density PETN with higher density PETN on either end for enhanced effect. Also iron oxide and Al added to increase initiation sensitivity.
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=24817&...
That is interesting and should provide an enhanced effect. LL, why don't you make some PETN? It is one of the easiest to make explosives from what I
have seen. I seem to remember you mentioning only being permitted to use certain materials, is that correct?
[Edited on 10-4-2015 by Hennig Brand]
"A risk-free world is a very dull world, one from which we are apt to learn little of consequence." -Geerat Vermeij
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PHILOU Zrealone
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Quote: Originally posted by PHILOU Zrealone  | Other ideas:
Fe powder + S (flower) --> FeS (like a cigarette burning)
Al2+ 3S --> Al2S3 (with exces Al for ETN ignition)
FeO or Fe2O3 thermite
PbO or PbO2 thermite
Cu2O or CuO thermite |
3 FeO + 2Al -->Al2O3 + 3 Fe (l)
Fe2O3 + 2 Al --> Al2O3 + 2 Fe (l)
3 PbO + 2Al --> Al2O3 + 3 Pb (l or g)
3 PbO2 + 4 Al --> 2 Al2O3 + 3 Pb (l or g)
3 Cu2O + 2Al --> Al2O3 + 6 Cu (l or g)
3 CuO + 2Al --> Al2O3 + 3 Cu (l or g)
So metal in the molten or overheated gaseous state (plasma?) should set ETN off.
The second set of equations with lead is very close to the soldering alloy in properties...so it remains on track of Hennig Brand's idea spirit 
I'm the lucky owner of a few 100g of a very special ultrafine Al powder that can be set in fire by the flame (even the spark of a lighter). It is very
light and has a dendritic structure and comes from a russian technology (got it from a french friend in relation with russian propellant and detonic
specialists). It is made via a process where Aluminium wire is explosed by electric discharge in a closed reactor containing inert Argon atmosphere;
once the system has cooled down, the Al dust is cooled even more and dry cold air is introduced at a reduced speed in the reactor under agitation.
This way the oxyd layer is as minimal as possible (ratio active metal/oxydised metal is high; this tend to get reduced by the lowering of the particle
size) and the Al powder is very reactive (high specific surface). With this I have made Fe2O3/Al thermite ignite with a candle flame (what is
impossible with all other variety of Al powder I have!); I have had Al/NH4NO3 prills burst into fierce flame while usually such mixes with my other Al
powders doesn't burn easy and never sustain without external heating...
This kind of Al powder was studied as being twice as effective in propellant applications (specific impulse) than other varieties and could find
applications in thermobaric explo-implosion: ultrafine Al nano-powder pressed became a spongeous material block that is impregnated with molten TNT;
the later overfueled Aluminized TNT when subjected to a detonator pulverizes the excess Al fuel with help of the TNT detonation and immediately set on
fire....this generates a first explosion wave...then this special form of Al burns all oxygen and nitrogen in the blast radius (easy formation of AlN
and Al2O3)...the air is thus vaccuumed and you then observe an implosion effect (air wave in the opposite way of the initial detonation).
2 Al + N2 --> 2 AlN
3 Al + O2 --> Al2O3
[Edited on 10-4-2015 by PHILOU Zrealone]
PH Z (PHILOU Zrealone)
"Physic is all what never works; Chemistry is all what stinks and explodes!"-"Life that deadly disease, sexually transmitted."(W.Allen)
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Hennig Brand
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Good that you got the lead in there. I think lead is the key to success. 
It is likely normally quite difficult to produce enough heat energy and transfer it to the ETN in the practical volumes available in a blasting cap.
Also the small volume has a relatively large surface area in contact with the thermally conductive metal blasting cap casing which wicks away heat
very rapidly and it gets worse fast as temperature rises and it is those high temperatures that are needed for initiation.
"A risk-free world is a very dull world, one from which we are apt to learn little of consequence." -Geerat Vermeij
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Rosco Bodine
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Some dragons eggs / crackling microstars related links may provide useful information about energetic thermite compositions intended to produce
explosion
https://books.google.com/books?id=X3aFQdJkmnAC&pg=PA32&a...
http://www.pyrotubes.co.uk/apps/forums/topics/show/7821455
http://www.pyrotubes.co.uk/apps/forums/topics/show/4636223
http://www.skylighter.com/fireworks/how-to-make/bismuth-subc...
Attachment: DragonEggStudy.pdf (502kB)
This file has been downloaded 2279 times
[Edited on 10-4-2015 by Rosco Bodine]
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Bert
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Make a pellet of Lead alloy, with a thin diaphragm of a slightly higher melting alloy below it,over the holes leading to the PETN/ETN or whatever- And
a steel piston & spring above the low temperature melting alloy, arrange heating of Lead alloy by either chemical reaction or electrical
resistance, such that most of the lead is fully @ liquidus, then the higher MP diaphragm over the base charge melts, top spring forces piston down
& molten metal squirts into base charge quickly and regardless of orientation of device.
Rapopart’s Rules for critical commentary:
1. Attempt to re-express your target’s position so clearly, vividly and fairly that your target says: “Thanks, I wish I’d thought of putting it
that way.”
2. List any points of agreement (especially if they are not matters of general or widespread agreement).
3. Mention anything you have learned from your target.
4. Only then are you permitted to say so much as a word of rebuttal or criticism.
Anatol Rapoport was a Russian-born American mathematical psychologist (1911-2007).
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Hennig Brand
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Sounds like it could work, Bert, and it does solve the gravity issue.
"A risk-free world is a very dull world, one from which we are apt to learn little of consequence." -Geerat Vermeij
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Bert
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Just slowly overheating an ampoule of nitroglycerin would provide a similar effect and be mechanically simpler- Probably not a much slower firing time
either. Sensitive to handling though...
Rapopart’s Rules for critical commentary:
1. Attempt to re-express your target’s position so clearly, vividly and fairly that your target says: “Thanks, I wish I’d thought of putting it
that way.”
2. List any points of agreement (especially if they are not matters of general or widespread agreement).
3. Mention anything you have learned from your target.
4. Only then are you permitted to say so much as a word of rebuttal or criticism.
Anatol Rapoport was a Russian-born American mathematical psychologist (1911-2007).
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Rosco Bodine
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Intending to produce a thermal shock induced "cook off" detonation, you want the temperature rise at the material contact thermal transfer interface
to be Fast and Hot, intensity for both being a helluva lot Think "flashbulb"
type effect.
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PHILOU Zrealone
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Lead tetraoxyde? Typo?
Wasn't it PbO2 (lead dioxyde or lead (IV) oxyde)
PH Z (PHILOU Zrealone)
"Physic is all what never works; Chemistry is all what stinks and explodes!"-"Life that deadly disease, sexually transmitted."(W.Allen)
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Bert
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| Quote: Originally posted by Rosco Bodine | | Intending to produce a thermal shock induced "cook off" detonation, you want the temperature rise at the material contact thermal transfer interface
to be Fast and Hot, intensity for both being a helluva lot Think "flashbulb"
type effect. |
I have repeatedly seen discussion here and elsewhere of various attempts to use pyrotechnic mixtures to initiate secondary explosives such as ETN,
PETN- mixed results and reliability not so good.
It's been quite a while since I played with this- and back then, never tried it inside a cap. As I recall, my attempts with ETN and NG uncontained
worked best on slow heating. Fast heating resulted in these substances catching fire and burning off. Sealed inside a cap would be a different story,
by other's accounts.
If you want to heat the secondary fast, one of the explosively fast thermite mixtures would indeed be a good choice. If the most rapid heating
possible is the object rather than shock, perhaps directing a supersonic jet of molten metal onto the secondary, as may be produced by thermite with
an admixture of Teflon?
Rapopart’s Rules for critical commentary:
1. Attempt to re-express your target’s position so clearly, vividly and fairly that your target says: “Thanks, I wish I’d thought of putting it
that way.”
2. List any points of agreement (especially if they are not matters of general or widespread agreement).
3. Mention anything you have learned from your target.
4. Only then are you permitted to say so much as a word of rebuttal or criticism.
Anatol Rapoport was a Russian-born American mathematical psychologist (1911-2007).
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Rosco Bodine
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The original patents and references to "safety detonators" describe what is definitely not a new idea using pyrotechnics and DDT schemes for
detonators. It is really a dubious quest of a "solution" in search of a problem to solve, since detonators using primary explosives are not
inherently "unsafe". There are even a few cases where the sensitivity of a primary explosive may be less than the sensitivity of the secondary
explosive it initiates, but the property of the primary which distinguishes it and makes it useful is that it behaves differently by being more
inclined to detonate or always detonate rather than requiring a set of special conditions that provide a sequence stepwise path to detonation. The
problem encountered with complex firing trains is called "quench" where if all the essential conditions in tandem are not optimal the device firing
sequence will malfunction. That can even happen in firing trains where a primary explosive is present but is much more likely to occur in a device
which does not have a "prime mover" that is unequivocally a primary explosive.
In the final analysis there is less to go wrong about a detonator that has a conventional firing train that uses a primary explosive, than a more
complex configuration that relies upon stepwise progressive density loading schemes and mechanical confinement gradients that are "tuned" to produce a
detonation wave. For a commercially manufactured device it may be technically feasible but will be more expensive.
To me the concept of an NPED is in the same category of thing as would be a contemplated "improvement in ammunition" as would incorrectly propose that
firearms using ammunition that have primers are somehow "unsafe" because in the way they normally function a firing pin impacts a primary explosive
which then ignites the gunpowder. The REALITY is that such a firing scheme is neither inherently "unsafe" nor is it in any way technically
deficient. However, many persons may for some personal reasons and agenda which is their own mystery, advocate and propose that for various reasons
they suppose are valid that somehow a problem exists on a technical level which is a reason for there to be pursued an invented "solution" for a
"problem" that doesn't really exist.
The REALITY is there is not a problem, so there is not needed any "solution".
This scenario I think is revealing something psychological going on with the thought process in the mind of the person who has difficulty with doing
rational "risk analysis" that realistically surveys costs versus benefit or risks versus gain kinds of propositions with a sensible pragmatism about
what works well as compared with what doesn't .....not measured as absolutes, but as a matter of practicality about performance.
Sometimes, while it may be possible to build a better mouse trap, the task should not be given great effort, if the billions of a particular design
already proven to be quite adequate are already doing the job nicely.
If it isn't broke, don't fix it. The "new and improved" often isn't either one.
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Hennig Brand
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Rosco, are you stirring the pot again? I am completely sane......I think.
I also think that the better primary explosives, such as lead azide, are relatively safe and very cost effective. I also think that EBW systems, for
instance, could be safer overall if all dangers are considered such as primary explosive synthesis, blasting cap loading, etc. It is more costly to
set up an EBW system, but I think once set up it should be fairly cost effective. I actually see experimenting with NPEDs less like building a better
mouse trap than is constantly digging through obscure chemistry trying to find a slightly better primary explosive when we already have lead azide and
others. I am not completely opposed to either activity, however, since a lot of useful things can be learned a long the way and you never really know
when something of real value will turn up unexpectedly.
"A risk-free world is a very dull world, one from which we are apt to learn little of consequence." -Geerat Vermeij
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Laboratory of Liptakov
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NPED resolved
NPED system problem is resolved. These are operating systems NPED for ETN and PETN. Everything important is in the schema. Dr. Liptakov
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Hennig Brand
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Nice presentation! Is this now a very reliable system?
"A risk-free world is a very dull world, one from which we are apt to learn little of consequence." -Geerat Vermeij
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Laboratory of Liptakov
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NPED
Yes. From 20 attempt no more failed. Always hole diameter 7mm in steel 2mm. Or 5-6mm in 3mm steel. Therefore is scheme here. Confirmed, now is it
reliable. No more HMTD, no more azide, double salt and etc.
Have fun with safe detonators wishes Dr. Liptakov :-)
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TGT
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I seen your videos on YouTube and I thought they were great. Actually all the videos are very informative and really show excellent ways of -do it
yourself- that I would have never thought of without seeing it done.
One question I have is, how is this mirror system benefit the design as appose to conventional detonators?
TGT
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Laboratory of Liptakov
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The explanation is simple. Energetic material burns and detonates on both sides. Therefore, the transition probability DDT much higher. The condition
is very small igniter. Another thing insoluble component, CuO, Al, AP must be a very fine powder. For an ETN-NPED no problem with fine. In the case
of PETN has been failure of a NPED. The reason is not many fine powder components. Still, it's just research. If used TeACP 20-25% for system PETN
NPED, failure is almost excluded. But it is not clear NPED system. Because it contains dispersed explosive (20% TeACP). But even so it is still better
than hexamethylene triperoxide diamine, or not available lead azide. /edite/
Another interesting thing: ETN with 5% NC2 (at 20 Celsius) is medium solid agglomerates for filling. However, at 20C and content of 15% NC2, creates
rubber mass. It is difficult to crush agglomerates 2x2m. On the sieve 2x2 mm, arises longer grain 2x3mm. Like short worm. However, important positive
thing: ETN + 15 NC2 is not liquid at 100 Celsius. Only soft rubber. Like butter at 20C. At 20C, medium-hard, minimum crushed, but very resilient
rubber. It is good for hold ETN on place inside cavity at higher temperature. Liptakov
Liptakov
[Edited on 2-7-2015 by Laboratory of Liptakov]
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kecskesajt
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ETN can be detonated from a burning paper.So 2 gramms of ETN into 2 layers of Al foil and hand pressed to .7 x .7 cm cube.Wrapped in 7 layers of
Non-waxed paper and sprinkle some BBQ lighter fluid on top.Light the corner of paper and it detonates in 20 secs.
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Laboratory of Liptakov
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ETN
Interesting. This can be useful. But it's certainly not detonator. Dr. Liptakov :-)
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kecskesajt
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Yes,it isn't but useful when those fkng birds eating fruits from my trees
But I made AN nitrate black powder and it could be useful for this because it is cheap,easy to make and burns slowly but hot.Recipe from jared legard.
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PHILOU Zrealone
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| Quote: Originally posted by kecskesajt | | ETN can be detonated from a burning paper.So 2 gramms of ETN into 2 layers of Al foil and hand pressed to .7 x .7 cm cube.Wrapped in 7 layers of
Non-waxed paper and sprinkle some BBQ lighter fluid on top.Light the corner of paper and it detonates in 20 secs. |
I hope you don't distinguish high order detonation, low order detonation and deflagration by the sound of the explosion...nor by the aluminium dust
from the multiple layers of Al foil exploded. Sometimes deflagration can be very powerfull and nearly similar in those effects.
Best way to be sure are witness plate or sand crushing tests.
By witness plate I mean iron or steel above 1mm tickness and not the metal of a soda can what can be pierced through by a simple deflagrating
cardboard banger or air gun lead bullet.
PH Z (PHILOU Zrealone)
"Physic is all what never works; Chemistry is all what stinks and explodes!"-"Life that deadly disease, sexually transmitted."(W.Allen)
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kecskesajt
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I don't think deflagaration could make a shockwave
And wiki says that deflagarion is just burning.I don't know how to distinguish high and low order explosions.
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