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Author: Subject: NPED detonator
MineMan
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[*] posted on 9-4-2015 at 10:44


Hennig,

I see where you are coming from. I look forward to your experiments, I see you are working on an EBW right now too from other post. It will be interesting to see which set up you prefer. Good work, Good ideas.
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Laboratory of Liptakov
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[*] posted on 9-4-2015 at 12:15


I recommend use this: Page 3 this thread. posted on 17-11-2014 at 07:01
With PENT or MHN. It is easy prepare. Who it try, will be king of detonators of all science madness. So much PETN is spended on main charge, Why no for detonator? ( I have not PETN...:cool:...LL)
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[*] posted on 9-4-2015 at 16:05


LL,

I am not sure I understand what you are saying?
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Hennig Brand
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[*] posted on 9-4-2015 at 16:10


He is referring to a post of his made on that date and time in this thread. Last page of this thread, electrically heated resistor in center of low density PETN with higher density PETN on either end for enhanced effect. Also iron oxide and Al added to increase initiation sensitivity.

http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=24817&...

That is interesting and should provide an enhanced effect. LL, why don't you make some PETN? It is one of the easiest to make explosives from what I have seen. I seem to remember you mentioning only being permitted to use certain materials, is that correct?


[Edited on 10-4-2015 by Hennig Brand]




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[*] posted on 10-4-2015 at 06:50


Quote: Originally posted by PHILOU Zrealone  
Other ideas:
Fe powder + S (flower) --> FeS (like a cigarette burning)
Al2+ 3S --> Al2S3 (with exces Al for ETN ignition)
FeO or Fe2O3 thermite
PbO or PbO2 thermite
Cu2O or CuO thermite


3 FeO + 2Al -->Al2O3 + 3 Fe (l)
Fe2O3 + 2 Al --> Al2O3 + 2 Fe (l)

3 PbO + 2Al --> Al2O3 + 3 Pb (l or g)
3 PbO2 + 4 Al --> 2 Al2O3 + 3 Pb (l or g)

3 Cu2O + 2Al --> Al2O3 + 6 Cu (l or g)
3 CuO + 2Al --> Al2O3 + 3 Cu (l or g)

So metal in the molten or overheated gaseous state (plasma?) should set ETN off.
The second set of equations with lead is very close to the soldering alloy in properties...so it remains on track of Hennig Brand's idea spirit ;)

I'm the lucky owner of a few 100g of a very special ultrafine Al powder that can be set in fire by the flame (even the spark of a lighter). It is very light and has a dendritic structure and comes from a russian technology (got it from a french friend in relation with russian propellant and detonic specialists). It is made via a process where Aluminium wire is explosed by electric discharge in a closed reactor containing inert Argon atmosphere; once the system has cooled down, the Al dust is cooled even more and dry cold air is introduced at a reduced speed in the reactor under agitation. This way the oxyd layer is as minimal as possible (ratio active metal/oxydised metal is high; this tend to get reduced by the lowering of the particle size) and the Al powder is very reactive (high specific surface). With this I have made Fe2O3/Al thermite ignite with a candle flame (what is impossible with all other variety of Al powder I have!); I have had Al/NH4NO3 prills burst into fierce flame while usually such mixes with my other Al powders doesn't burn easy and never sustain without external heating...
This kind of Al powder was studied as being twice as effective in propellant applications (specific impulse) than other varieties and could find applications in thermobaric explo-implosion: ultrafine Al nano-powder pressed became a spongeous material block that is impregnated with molten TNT; the later overfueled Aluminized TNT when subjected to a detonator pulverizes the excess Al fuel with help of the TNT detonation and immediately set on fire....this generates a first explosion wave...then this special form of Al burns all oxygen and nitrogen in the blast radius (easy formation of AlN and Al2O3)...the air is thus vaccuumed and you then observe an implosion effect (air wave in the opposite way of the initial detonation).
2 Al + N2 --> 2 AlN
3 Al + O2 --> Al2O3

[Edited on 10-4-2015 by PHILOU Zrealone]




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Hennig Brand
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[*] posted on 10-4-2015 at 08:53


Good that you got the lead in there. I think lead is the key to success. ;):D

It is likely normally quite difficult to produce enough heat energy and transfer it to the ETN in the practical volumes available in a blasting cap. Also the small volume has a relatively large surface area in contact with the thermally conductive metal blasting cap casing which wicks away heat very rapidly and it gets worse fast as temperature rises and it is those high temperatures that are needed for initiation.




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Rosco Bodine
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[*] posted on 10-4-2015 at 08:58


Some dragons eggs / crackling microstars related links may provide useful information about energetic thermite compositions intended to produce explosion

https://books.google.com/books?id=X3aFQdJkmnAC&pg=PA32&lpg=P...

http://www.pyrotubes.co.uk/apps/forums/topics/show/7821455

http://www.pyrotubes.co.uk/apps/forums/topics/show/4636223

http://www.skylighter.com/fireworks/how-to-make/bismuth-subc...


crackling microstars.JPG - 36kB


Attachment: DragonEggStudy.pdf (502kB)
This file has been downloaded 530 times


[Edited on 10-4-2015 by Rosco Bodine]
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[*] posted on 10-4-2015 at 09:25


Make a pellet of Lead alloy, with a thin diaphragm of a slightly higher melting alloy below it,over the holes leading to the PETN/ETN or whatever- And a steel piston & spring above the low temperature melting alloy, arrange heating of Lead alloy by either chemical reaction or electrical resistance, such that most of the lead is fully @ liquidus, then the higher MP diaphragm over the base charge melts, top spring forces piston down & molten metal squirts into base charge quickly and regardless of orientation of device.



Boom.
The explosion removed the windows, the door and most of the chimney.
It was the sort of thing you expected in the Street of alchemists. The neighbors preferred explosions, which were at least identifiable and soon over. They were better than the smells, which crept up on you.
-Terry Pratchett, "Moving Pictures"

It is essential that persons having explosive 
substances under their charge should never 
lose sight of the conviction that, preventive 
measures should always be prescribed 
on the hypothesis of an explosion.

Marcellin Berthelot - 1892 
Explosives and their power - Page 47
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[*] posted on 10-4-2015 at 09:32


Sounds like it could work, Bert, and it does solve the gravity issue.



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[*] posted on 10-4-2015 at 10:08


Just slowly overheating an ampoule of nitroglycerin would provide a similar effect and be mechanically simpler- Probably not a much slower firing time either. Sensitive to handling though...





Boom.
The explosion removed the windows, the door and most of the chimney.
It was the sort of thing you expected in the Street of alchemists. The neighbors preferred explosions, which were at least identifiable and soon over. They were better than the smells, which crept up on you.
-Terry Pratchett, "Moving Pictures"

It is essential that persons having explosive 
substances under their charge should never 
lose sight of the conviction that, preventive 
measures should always be prescribed 
on the hypothesis of an explosion.

Marcellin Berthelot - 1892 
Explosives and their power - Page 47
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Rosco Bodine
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[*] posted on 10-4-2015 at 10:36


Intending to produce a thermal shock induced "cook off" detonation, you want the temperature rise at the material contact thermal transfer interface to be Fast and Hot, intensity for both being a helluva lot :D Think "flashbulb" type effect.
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[*] posted on 11-4-2015 at 04:40


Quote: Originally posted by Rosco Bodine  
Some dragons eggs / crackling microstars related links may provide useful information about energetic thermite compositions intended to produce explosion

https://books.google.com/books?id=X3aFQdJkmnAC&pg=PA32&lpg=P...

http://www.pyrotubes.co.uk/apps/forums/topics/show/7821455

http://www.pyrotubes.co.uk/apps/forums/topics/show/4636223

http://www.skylighter.com/fireworks/how-to-make/bismuth-subc...


[Edited on 10-4-2015 by Rosco Bodine]

Lead tetraoxyde? Typo?
Wasn't it PbO2 (lead dioxyde or lead (IV) oxyde)




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[*] posted on 11-4-2015 at 05:10


Quote: Originally posted by Rosco Bodine  
Intending to produce a thermal shock induced "cook off" detonation, you want the temperature rise at the material contact thermal transfer interface to be Fast and Hot, intensity for both being a helluva lot :D Think "flashbulb" type effect.


I have repeatedly seen discussion here and elsewhere of various attempts to use pyrotechnic mixtures to initiate secondary explosives such as ETN, PETN- mixed results and reliability not so good.

It's been quite a while since I played with this- and back then, never tried it inside a cap. As I recall, my attempts with ETN and NG uncontained worked best on slow heating. Fast heating resulted in these substances catching fire and burning off. Sealed inside a cap would be a different story, by other's accounts.

If you want to heat the secondary fast, one of the explosively fast thermite mixtures would indeed be a good choice. If the most rapid heating possible is the object rather than shock, perhaps directing a supersonic jet of molten metal onto the secondary, as may be produced by thermite with an admixture of Teflon?




Boom.
The explosion removed the windows, the door and most of the chimney.
It was the sort of thing you expected in the Street of alchemists. The neighbors preferred explosions, which were at least identifiable and soon over. They were better than the smells, which crept up on you.
-Terry Pratchett, "Moving Pictures"

It is essential that persons having explosive 
substances under their charge should never 
lose sight of the conviction that, preventive 
measures should always be prescribed 
on the hypothesis of an explosion.

Marcellin Berthelot - 1892 
Explosives and their power - Page 47
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Rosco Bodine
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[*] posted on 11-4-2015 at 07:17


The original patents and references to "safety detonators" describe what is definitely not a new idea using pyrotechnics and DDT schemes for detonators. It is really a dubious quest of a "solution" in search of a problem to solve, since detonators using primary explosives are not inherently "unsafe". There are even a few cases where the sensitivity of a primary explosive may be less than the sensitivity of the secondary explosive it initiates, but the property of the primary which distinguishes it and makes it useful is that it behaves differently by being more inclined to detonate or always detonate rather than requiring a set of special conditions that provide a sequence stepwise path to detonation. The problem encountered with complex firing trains is called "quench" where if all the essential conditions in tandem are not optimal the device firing sequence will malfunction. That can even happen in firing trains where a primary explosive is present but is much more likely to occur in a device which does not have a "prime mover" that is unequivocally a primary explosive.

In the final analysis there is less to go wrong about a detonator that has a conventional firing train that uses a primary explosive, than a more complex configuration that relies upon stepwise progressive density loading schemes and mechanical confinement gradients that are "tuned" to produce a detonation wave. For a commercially manufactured device it may be technically feasible but will be more expensive.

To me the concept of an NPED is in the same category of thing as would be a contemplated "improvement in ammunition" as would incorrectly propose that firearms using ammunition that have primers are somehow "unsafe" because in the way they normally function a firing pin impacts a primary explosive which then ignites the gunpowder. The REALITY is that such a firing scheme is neither inherently "unsafe" nor is it in any way technically deficient. However, many persons may for some personal reasons and agenda which is their own mystery, advocate and propose that for various reasons they suppose are valid that somehow a problem exists on a technical level which is a reason for there to be pursued an invented "solution" for a "problem" that doesn't really exist.

The REALITY is there is not a problem, so there is not needed any "solution".

This scenario I think is revealing something psychological going on with the thought process in the mind of the person who has difficulty with doing rational "risk analysis" that realistically surveys costs versus benefit or risks versus gain kinds of propositions with a sensible pragmatism about what works well as compared with what doesn't .....not measured as absolutes, but as a matter of practicality about performance.

Sometimes, while it may be possible to build a better mouse trap, the task should not be given great effort, if the billions of a particular design already proven to be quite adequate are already doing the job nicely.

If it isn't broke, don't fix it. The "new and improved" often isn't either one.
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[*] posted on 11-4-2015 at 08:10


Rosco, are you stirring the pot again? :D I am completely sane......I think. :D
I also think that the better primary explosives, such as lead azide, are relatively safe and very cost effective. I also think that EBW systems, for instance, could be safer overall if all dangers are considered such as primary explosive synthesis, blasting cap loading, etc. It is more costly to set up an EBW system, but I think once set up it should be fairly cost effective. I actually see experimenting with NPEDs less like building a better mouse trap than is constantly digging through obscure chemistry trying to find a slightly better primary explosive when we already have lead azide and others. I am not completely opposed to either activity, however, since a lot of useful things can be learned a long the way and you never really know when something of real value will turn up unexpectedly.




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[*] posted on 1-7-2015 at 07:44
NPED resolved


NPED system problem is resolved. These are operating systems NPED for ETN and PETN. Everything important is in the schema. Dr. Liptakov

PETN NPED scheme1.jpg - 307kB

ETN NPED scheme3.jpg - 304kB
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[*] posted on 1-7-2015 at 10:27


Nice presentation! Is this now a very reliable system?



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[*] posted on 1-7-2015 at 10:41
NPED


Yes. From 20 attempt no more failed. Always hole diameter 7mm in steel 2mm. Or 5-6mm in 3mm steel. Therefore is scheme here. Confirmed, now is it reliable. No more HMTD, no more azide, double salt and etc.
Have fun with safe detonators wishes Dr. Liptakov :-)
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[*] posted on 1-7-2015 at 22:48


I seen your videos on YouTube and I thought they were great. Actually all the videos are very informative and really show excellent ways of -do it yourself- that I would have never thought of without seeing it done.

One question I have is, how is this mirror system benefit the design as appose to conventional detonators?

TGT
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[*] posted on 2-7-2015 at 02:50


The explanation is simple. Energetic material burns and detonates on both sides. Therefore, the transition probability DDT much higher. The condition is very small igniter. Another thing insoluble component, CuO, Al, AP must be a very fine powder. For an ETN-NPED no problem with fine. In the case of PETN has been failure of a NPED. The reason is not many fine powder components. Still, it's just research. If used TeACP 20-25% for system PETN NPED, failure is almost excluded. But it is not clear NPED system. Because it contains dispersed explosive (20% TeACP). But even so it is still better than hexamethylene triperoxide diamine, or not available lead azide. /edite/
Another interesting thing: ETN with 5% NC2 (at 20 Celsius) is medium solid agglomerates for filling. However, at 20C and content of 15% NC2, creates rubber mass. It is difficult to crush agglomerates 2x2m. On the sieve 2x2 mm, arises longer grain 2x3mm. Like short worm. However, important positive thing: ETN + 15 NC2 is not liquid at 100 Celsius. Only soft rubber. Like butter at 20C. At 20C, medium-hard, minimum crushed, but very resilient rubber. It is good for hold ETN on place inside cavity at higher temperature. Liptakov
Liptakov

[Edited on 2-7-2015 by Laboratory of Liptakov]
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[*] posted on 14-7-2015 at 23:27


ETN can be detonated from a burning paper.So 2 gramms of ETN into 2 layers of Al foil and hand pressed to .7 x .7 cm cube.Wrapped in 7 layers of Non-waxed paper and sprinkle some BBQ lighter fluid on top.Light the corner of paper and it detonates in 20 secs.
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[*] posted on 18-7-2015 at 03:04
ETN


Interesting. This can be useful. But it's certainly not detonator. Dr. Liptakov :-)
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[*] posted on 18-7-2015 at 03:54


Yes,it isn't but useful when those fkng birds eating fruits from my trees :D
But I made AN nitrate black powder and it could be useful for this because it is cheap,easy to make and burns slowly but hot.Recipe from jared legard.
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[*] posted on 18-7-2015 at 06:15


Quote: Originally posted by kecskesajt  
ETN can be detonated from a burning paper.So 2 gramms of ETN into 2 layers of Al foil and hand pressed to .7 x .7 cm cube.Wrapped in 7 layers of Non-waxed paper and sprinkle some BBQ lighter fluid on top.Light the corner of paper and it detonates in 20 secs.

I hope you don't distinguish high order detonation, low order detonation and deflagration by the sound of the explosion...nor by the aluminium dust from the multiple layers of Al foil exploded. Sometimes deflagration can be very powerfull and nearly similar in those effects.

Best way to be sure are witness plate or sand crushing tests.
By witness plate I mean iron or steel above 1mm tickness and not the metal of a soda can what can be pierced through by a simple deflagrating cardboard banger or air gun lead bullet.






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[*] posted on 18-7-2015 at 08:34


I don't think deflagaration could make a shockwave :D
And wiki says that deflagarion is just burning.I don't know how to distinguish high and low order explosions.
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