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Author: Subject: Please do not "play" with Organic Peroxides.
madscientist
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[*] posted on 1-7-2013 at 03:02


Liquids have the advantage that they don't have a crystal structure to shatter (which bears the risk of detonation), and they're always at maximum density, so compression (dangerous) can be avoided. But of course, organic peroxides are always profoundly dangerous and should be avoided at all costs.



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[*] posted on 1-7-2013 at 04:45


I remember the one incident report where a member described the "moment of detonation" with an organic peroxide was when he inserted a metal spoon (probably stainless steel) into a pile of DADP or TATP or similar chemical.

I'm not sure if organic peroxides are functional enough to warrant academic study, beyond what some academics report, that they are working on figuring out what additives (etc.) to add to hardware store acetone & peroxide so that they can't be used as an explosive.

Personally, I'm curious about the 'random' nature of these explosions. Why does it 'go off' in some cases, and not others ? Humidity, material of lab implement (e.g., the metal spoon), categories of impurity, etc.

Maybe academia & the US gov. don't want energetics hobbyists to figure out "how to make organic peroxides safe". But I have to believe that there is always some reason why a batch detonates when it does. Something more than just "God rolling the dice."


I was impressed by the one video a member posted of TATP used to detonate an ammonium nitrate mixture, knocking down a tree. That he risked losing a hand at the moment when he stuck the TATP ignitor in the AN makes me frown.

I would like to know more, but I don't think I would want to work with this category of materials except through a blast shield & using a robotic arm for the handling.

I appreciate the members who have shared the stories that make me realize the hazards involved with AP.

[Edited on 1-7-2013 by Metathesis-izer]
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watson.fawkes
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[*] posted on 1-7-2013 at 06:34


Quote: Originally posted by Metathesis-izer  
I have to believe that there is always some reason why a batch detonates when it does. Something more than just "God rolling the dice."
Just because there's a reason doesn't mean you'll ever be able to determine it.

For example, thermal diffusion includes solid-state diffusion within a crystal lattice. Consider a crystal of organic peroxide with some kind of high-strain crystal defect; that's going to be the generic case without some (very) special care in the crystallization step. Now just with thermal motion, there's going to be some motion in the vicinity of that crystal defect. When it rearranges, thermal motion having overcome the activation energy, it will release energy, creating a local hot spot. This provides more motion for other molecules to overcome activation energy. This can lead to thermal runaway (even if it mostly doesn't), and in the present example of an explosive, a spontaneous detonation.

So just because you can identify some circumstances that will trigger detonation doesn't mean that you'll ever be able to understand all of them. That's what the phrase "inherently unstable" actually means.
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[*] posted on 1-7-2013 at 08:22


They can't add stuff to the acetone to make it unusable. They can add deadly catalysts, to make any AP very unstable.
You k3lws with no balls, go ahead and b1tch about organic peroxides and how DS and LA(elite) are almost perfect. Safety is in your head, not with particular compound. I've heard of people blowing themselves with high grade commercial materials.
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[*] posted on 1-7-2013 at 09:10


Quote: Originally posted by Ral123  
They can't add stuff to the acetone to make it unusable. They can add deadly catalysts, to make any AP very unstable.
You k3lws with no balls, go ahead and b1tch about organic peroxides and how DS and LA(elite) are almost perfect. Safety is in your head, not with particular compound. I've heard of people blowing themselves with high grade commercial materials.


There is no perfect primary, as that is the nature of,well, primaries. Your lack of safety and common sense should not be a reason to insult others. If you would like to be careless with your life, so be it, but please do it away from others that can be harmed.

Now to hopefully continue to the thread again, I will try to remember anymore environmental factors at the time of the detonation.

Temperature was, and remains at 24C. (72)

The HMTD was stored in an airtight plastic container.

It was not exposed to direct sunlight.

The HMTD was never in contact with any metals during its synthesis.

Washed thrice with water, twice with a basic solution and thrice more with water.

Memory is fuzzy immediately prior and after the detonation, I was reaching around it to get a filter paper, it detonated sending shrapnel into my left hand, left arm, and right arm. Seemingly with no external stimulus.
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[*] posted on 1-7-2013 at 10:26


EnigmaBADGER :
İt could be Electrostatic discharge ? how was the humidity ?


[Edited on 1-7-2013 by Peroksit]




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[*] posted on 1-7-2013 at 10:59


Humidity is non existent. Electrostatic charge could have been a factor, but there's no way to know for sure.

[Edited on 1-7-2013 by EnigmaBADGER]
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[*] posted on 2-7-2013 at 13:22


Quote: Originally posted by killswitch  
Methyl ethyl ketone peroxide is a nice alternative to TATP and HMTD. As a liquid, it is extremely difficult to detonate unless confined. ...


All it takes is one careless move to stub a dropper on the bottom of a bottle of MEKP and kaboom... one errant tap of the stirring rod on glass, one dust particle of some incompatible compound... MEKP was my first and only organic peroxide. See a post of mine from 2009.

Seriously. Leave peroxides alone. You're just asking for trouble. It's not "if." It's "when." I feel sick just thinking about the idiotic amounts of this garbage I used to make when I was younger.

Anyway, good luck to all who are so foolish to continue. Post pictures of your injuries.




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[*] posted on 2-7-2013 at 13:44


I wish more people had azides, so many of the peroxide accidents would be azide accidents. Great advices, leave the peroxides is all you need to be fine with energetics. I see a tendency, those who aren't really into energetics b1tch most about the peroxides. Those who are, talk about safety in general.
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[*] posted on 2-7-2013 at 15:27



No matter how safe you are, at least according to yourself which is a very subjective point of a view, you will miss something eventually. When that happens, you'll be happy that you stayed away from the organic peroxides.
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[*] posted on 2-7-2013 at 17:04


Quote: Originally posted by EnigmaBADGER  

No matter how safe you are, at least according to yourself which is a very subjective point of a view, you will miss something eventually. When that happens, you'll be happy that you stayed away from the organic peroxides.

EnigmaBADGER, this is not directed right at you, so do not take offense this is a general rebuttal to the subject.

You could miss something with anything and be killed, for instance:

driving (car wreck)
walking (ran over, fall down)
having sex (get STD)
eating food (choke)
swimming (shark attack, drown)
golfing (rogue lightning)
any sport (broken neck)
list goes on forever...

So you better just give up now and admit yourself into a padded room to keep from having bad things happen. Even then though your doctors could prescribe the wrong dose of medication and kill you anyway.

There is NO WAY to avoid all negative events. You can lessen the chance of them happening but no matter if it's peroxides or eating lunch, both could kill or injure you.

With peroxides it all boils down to your surroundings, how focused are you at the task at hand and have you accounted for all controllable variables. All of that is 100% accomplishable, there has got to be a reason for a detonation, these things are not random.







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[*] posted on 2-7-2013 at 19:44


Your analogies fail to sufficiently describe the hazards of organic peroxides. More appropriate would be darting across a LA freeway drunk, disoriented, handcuffed and blindfolded, a roller skate on one foot and an army boot on the other, obscured by camouflage and the cover of darkness.

Quote:
...there has got to be a reason for a detonation, these things are not random.


Not one you'll ever discern.




I weep at the sight of flaming acetic anhydride.
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[*] posted on 2-7-2013 at 20:37


That's a great analogy. You may make that trip a dozen times and be completely fine but the one time a car is coming, you can't see it and have no way of appreciating its existence until you're hit with it.

I have never had an accident, knock on wood, but I can almost guarantee that if more people would be making lead azide there would be fewer accidents overall, but our course there'd be more lead azide accidents.

There is a good reason azides were favored commercially despite the increased cost of production.
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[*] posted on 2-7-2013 at 21:15


Peroxides can be used commercially, the question is, what will be the cost of safety. In the worst case, the blast caps will be inserted only by robots or something.
Personally I have no intention of letting myself to be injured by 2g of AP-enough for a decent blast cap. My charges are generally sub 20g so if I insert it with sticks, it shouldn't be problem.
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[*] posted on 3-7-2013 at 04:37


Quote: Originally posted by watson.fawkes  
Just because there's a reason doesn't mean you'll ever be able to determine it.


Thanks for the replies.

The metal spoon example I think was with Potassium Chlorate.

I just wonder if there's a set of parameters that can be established to make some of the unstable compounds less unstable.

e.g. transporting them in ice, packaging them in a certain humidity range or with added graphite if they are static sensitive - etc.
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[*] posted on 3-7-2013 at 07:31


Quote: Originally posted by madscientist  
Your analogies fail to sufficiently describe the hazards of organic peroxides.


I suppose you are right but your analogy seems like it is from the view of an anti-peroxide user. What I mean is drugs are bad to everyone except the people that use them. Explosives are a bad thing to everyone that doesn't know how to use them properly. You see what I'm getting at?

If a person is careful it mostly comes down to probability and how often a person uses peroxides. I haven't used any in a long time so I couldn't care less about them, but really, I don't think they are as bad as people say.

[Edited on 7-3-2013 by chemcam]




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[*] posted on 3-7-2013 at 11:36


What is the best primary explosive for kitchen pyros :D ? Sodium azide is very expensive may be DDNP is good choice for amateur ? What is your thinks ?( in the terms of safely )




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[*] posted on 3-7-2013 at 11:43


Quote: Originally posted by Peroksit  
What is the best primary explosive for kitchen pyros :D ?


Really?!

Kitchens are for culinary purposes. If you want explosive food, eat tacobell.




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[*] posted on 3-7-2013 at 18:56


I have heard ANFO can be used as a primary, as long as it is under 1 gram it works decent.
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[*] posted on 3-7-2013 at 20:50


Quote: Originally posted by golfpro  
I have heard ANFO can be used as a primary, as long as it is under 1 gram it works decent.


You were told false, ANFO is MUCH too insensitive to ever be used as anything besides a blasting agent.

From what I hear DDNP is a great primary, very insesitive to friction and Shock. I believe (Don't quote me!) the process is something along the lines of Picric Acid to Picramic, to DDNP.
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[*] posted on 3-7-2013 at 22:09


Quote: Originally posted by chemcam  
Quote: Originally posted by madscientist  
Your analogies fail to sufficiently describe the hazards of organic peroxides.


I suppose you are right but your analogy seems like it is from the view of an anti-peroxide user. What I mean is drugs are bad to everyone except the people that use them. Explosives are a bad thing to everyone that doesn't know how to use them properly. You see what I'm getting at?

If a person is careful it mostly comes down to probability and how often a person uses peroxides. I haven't used any in a long time so I couldn't care less about them, but really, I don't think they are as bad as people say.

[Edited on 7-3-2013 by chemcam]


Those who think that accidents with peroxides can be prevented with "proper handling" are ignorant on the matter themselves.




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[*] posted on 3-7-2013 at 22:28


Not prevented, but damage minimized. My only "accidental" explosion was long time ago, I made a 250ml batch with sulfuric I think. We had moles in the yard and I told my father I'll take care. The yield was high and I didn't bother filtering it. Just left the thing spread on styrofoam on the hot summer sun outside. So the batch self disposed of itself :D There were few pieces of the styrofoam left. It was cracked and melted a little.
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[*] posted on 3-7-2013 at 23:04


Quote: Originally posted by chemcam  
Quote: Originally posted by Peroksit  
What is the best primary explosive for kitchen pyros :D ?


Really?!

Kitchens are for culinary purposes. If you want explosive food, eat tacobell.

I was talking about ametour pyros when I said kitchen :D Sorry my english not good Why you don't want to understand me ?

[Edited on 4-7-2013 by Peroksit]




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[*] posted on 4-7-2013 at 01:55



Quote:

What is the best primary explosive for kitchen pyros :D ? Sodium azide is very expensive may be DDNP is good choice for amateur ? What is your thinks ?( in the terms of safely )


Yes it is expensive, if you can get it at all. But you wont use large amounts, so 50 or 100g will last you very long.
100mg of lead azide + booster will suffice. At least in my opinion.

But i wont call this safe. Static and friction are hard to control during filling and pressing a cap.


And DDNP is nice, but first you have to make proper picric acid first...
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[*] posted on 6-7-2013 at 01:33


My friend is fuckin insane. Or was. He is still alive, tough.

But he is the one who did an entire pound of acetone peroxide and handled it like a kid, or fool. I saw the part he crystallized it out and filtered it and then poured it for drying, into several piles on his table. And he did not neutralize or recrystallize them, just washed with water to get rid of the largest shit and put them down there. He made some tests to demonstrate the instability of that stuff: a nail dropped from few centimeters caused instant "CRACK" like detonation, as most describe the sound of AP going off. I still wonder he is alive, he even mentioned having it in glass bottle with water and he played with it like some toy balling it in his hands and even dropped it once.

Well, quess he was the lucky one. I wouldn't mind thouching, or being even near of peroxides, knowing how unsensitive they are. I dont even like playing with stable nitrate synthesis, the partially irrational fear of reaction overrun and spontaneous detonation even when following the stringest guidelines sits monolithically on the back of my mind.
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