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Author: Subject: Please do not "play" with Organic Peroxides.
Antiswat
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[*] posted on 6-7-2013 at 15:03


Quote: Originally posted by chemcam  
Quote: Originally posted by EnigmaBADGER  

No matter how safe you are, at least according to yourself which is a very subjective point of a view, you will miss something eventually. When that happens, you'll be happy that you stayed away from the organic peroxides.

EnigmaBADGER, this is not directed right at you, so do not take offense this is a general rebuttal to the subject.

You could miss something with anything and be killed, for instance:

driving (car wreck)
walking (ran over, fall down)
having sex (get STD)
eating food (choke)
swimming (shark attack, drown)
golfing (rogue lightning)
any sport (broken neck)
list goes on forever...

So you better just give up now and admit yourself into a padded room to keep from having bad things happen. Even then though your doctors could prescribe the wrong dose of medication and kill you anyway.

There is NO WAY to avoid all negative events. You can lessen the chance of them happening but no matter if it's peroxides or eating lunch, both could kill or injure you.

With peroxides it all boils down to your surroundings, how focused are you at the task at hand and have you accounted for all controllable variables. All of that is 100% accomplishable, there has got to be a reason for a detonation, these things are not random.





that is the anhydrous logic of life you just described there (:

if you dont want to take the risk of a star blinding you slightly for 0.5 second, then you dont pick pyrotechnics as a hobby
if you dont care to try to give alot of time to understand a specific compound, and wash is beyond throughly, then you dont care for your life, and you shouldnt be doing anything around energetics
if you dont even read the whole synthesis of such compounds, then its just a pure wonder that you havent killed yourself on a loose laying rock or in a desperate attempt to tie your shoes

comment posted not much before this one states a superior k3wl behavior
handling it like if its a joke
just wanting to die really
glass bottle
doesnt even know what neutralize means
massive amount
massive amount, of a >>PRIMARY

and then you guys keep on saying that this compound can and will without reason go off when its fully neutralized (neutralized, not basified) in tiny amounts?
no
were missing something here
organic peroxides can and potentially will and especially at elevated temperatures decompose and eventually settle on various surfaces, mainly as decently sensitive crystals, despite ive seen a quite nice crystal being crushed without anything happening
call that playing with your life or not, but the fact that properly synthesized ap can be that stable, just shows that you need to go blindfolded through the whole synthesis in order to fuck it up

tl;dr
follow and understand the procedure aswell as the properties of the compound




~25 drops = 1mL @dH2O viscocity - STP
Truth is ever growing - but without context theres barely any such.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solubility_table
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Simbani
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[*] posted on 7-7-2013 at 00:29


Oh my god, please stop it!
I see, a few guys out here simply cannot understand the unpredictability of AP. Bad for you, but please stop playing down the dangers of AP!
What you write here is open for everyone in the world (and mostly non-chemists), so beware posting wrong information or dangerouz nonsense.
Thank you.




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papaya
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[*] posted on 7-7-2013 at 02:05


No peroxide thread is complete without pages of hollywar :P
Anyway both sides cannot prove scientifically what they are stating(phrases ''it's known because my friend lost his parts'' and ''nothing wrong with me yet'') and this is going to last forever. And regarding to beliefs my opinion is that these compound can be chemically incompatible with many other things (dirt, traces of some chemicals, etc) which is why they behave so differently. For example I've heard many bad cases when the thing was put in a medicine bottle, is there something special in this type of casings (may be they are coated with something usually) ?
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Bot0nist
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[*] posted on 7-7-2013 at 06:48


One of the things that makes organic peroxides such a danger is there unpredictability. It is so easy to become complacent when working with them, and people seem to get the idea that if they have made and used peroxides 100 times with not even a single unexpected detonation that they are somehow safe or stable. This is simply not the case. There are literally countless reasons and variables that could contribute to an unexpected detonation, many of which could be completely outside the experaminters control.

Years back, I synthesised a little less than a gram of TCAP for a little bang, something I had done countless times before with no trouble. My proceedue was correct (pure reactants, agressive temp managment, etc) and the product looked and behaved as usual. When transfering the dried material from its filter paper (letting the powder pour off the paper) the whole lot deflagrated in my face in an enormous orange fireball. I was not injured, but had I not worn safety goggles, I very easily could have injured my eyes. Now, it was a very dry day, so I always attributed this to static, but also maybe friction. Not sure, but it was the last time made such an amount of TCAP. I have also had a very similar experiance of a ml of MEKP detonating when a popsicle stick was dipped in it.

All the proponents of organic proxides will jump on this, assuring me and all readers that the fault lies in me improperly synthesising these material, or that my reagents surely must have been unpure and contaminated. This is simple not the case. I had made these demons many times before with no issues at all, and even thought as you all do, that the sensitivity and unpredictability must surely be greatly exagerated, or that mistakes are being made only by the incpompetant handling or synthesis. After that first unexpected shock, I looked back in my mind and remembered all the times I could have been maimed or killed while handling them, and I swore off OPs for anything but a novelty to be made in the mg scale range.

Good luck to you all, and play safe.




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Don't judge each day only by the harvest you reap, but also by the seeds you sow.
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golfpro
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[*] posted on 7-7-2013 at 08:10


b0tonist, when you say mg range what number do you mean?? I can imgaine ETN (1-15g) could be set off with something like 50mg or less of HMTD or AP. Are they any safer in very small amounts like that?
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Bot0nist
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[*] posted on 7-7-2013 at 08:29


50mg for small pops or playing with only. And thats pushing it. An organic peroxide is never safe when inserted into a larger charge, and they should never be used as an initiator, IMO.

I doubt 50mg will initiate though. Why do all the kewls use several grams on YT then?. Inserting a TCAP cap into a charge big enough to take your life is not something I would ever do. To each there own I suppose. Maybe im a scardey cat, but I have read and heard enough horror stories to know better...

[Edited on 7-7-2013 by Bot0nist]




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golfpro
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[*] posted on 7-7-2013 at 11:47


Thinking of some initiators, the two easiest ones seem to be silver acetylide and lead Azide. Silver acetylide would be most likely but I first need silver nitrate, for this I have silver, but I do not have nitric acid to form the silver nitrate, to make nitric acid, I'd probably do the copper and HCl and nitrating salt procedure. I will never buy or order nitric acid. Once I get silver nitrate, I still need Carbon and Calcium, I could form CaC2 with heating in a glass tube I've seen done, and of course then make the rig for acetylene gas into the silver nitrate solution. My best option would still take a lot of work and very costly and may not even be possible for me, but then again, if it could be done, I could be confident I am dealing with safe caps for any detonations I want to do.

So the question is how serious am I about it. Look at the channel detonators anonymous on youtube, that guy is very sophisticated if you watch those videos you'll see, almost proffesional. He must take a big interest in explosives.

Look:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zkfiKlYDxno


[Edited on 7-7-2013 by golfpro]

[Edited on 7-7-2013 by golfpro]
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Adas
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[*] posted on 8-7-2013 at 08:32


B0tonist, I have tried igniting TATP with static several times with no success. This seems like a mystery to me.



Rest In Pieces!
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madscientist
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[*] posted on 8-7-2013 at 19:49


Quote: Originally posted by Antiswat  
and then you guys keep on saying that this compound can and will without reason go off when its fully neutralized (neutralized, not basified) in tiny amounts?
no
were missing something here
organic peroxides can and potentially will and especially at elevated temperatures decompose and eventually settle on various surfaces, mainly as decently sensitive crystals, despite ive seen a quite nice crystal being crushed without anything happening
call that playing with your life or not, but the fact that properly synthesized ap can be that stable, just shows that you need to go blindfolded through the whole synthesis in order to fuck it up

tl;dr
follow and understand the procedure aswell as the properties of the compound


Bullshit. Anyone who says peroxides are stable and can be handled safely is not a real chemist. I challenge you to find even just one PI with any credibility who would say otherwise.




I weep at the sight of flaming acetic anhydride.
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bfesser
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[*] posted on 9-7-2013 at 05:52


<strong>madscientist</strong>, I'm unfamiliar with your acronym. Do you mean <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principal_investigator" target="_blank">Principal Investigator</a> <img src="../scipics/_wiki.png" />(PI)?



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madscientist
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[*] posted on 9-7-2013 at 18:23


Yep, that's it.



I weep at the sight of flaming acetic anhydride.
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[*] posted on 17-7-2013 at 04:39


Quote: Originally posted by Simbani  
Oh my god, please stop it!
I see, a few guys out here simply cannot understand the unpredictability of AP.


I understand that it's unpredictable.

In a video that someone posted where they used the tri version, TATP, as an initiator for tannerite or Ammonium Nitrate, it made it seem useful, almost, tame & predictable.

What I still wonder is why experienced chemical researchers haven't determined what makes it un-predictable/ how to make it predictable & repeatable.

Admittedly, they may not want the general public to learn that type of secret.

Having worked with chemists, and in electronics R&D, where it seems "there's always a way". I wonder if the sources of AP un-stability have been identified, in a research context, but not released, e.g. "still too un-stable for field use."
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[*] posted on 17-7-2013 at 04:49


How much did you make?
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Semiexpyrokid
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[*] posted on 17-8-2015 at 07:04


Everyone knows that because something went smoothly 100X, that #101 won't get you. Of 9 out of 10, 999 out of 1000... Attempting to "quantify risk" by saying I've done it this way for X years...doesn't quite hack it. Obviously luck, or part of your procedure, that you may or may not even be aware of, are big drivers. But these things CAN be hard to quantify. Any ideas on the "best" way? Note I'm quite aware this is a rather fuzzy and hard question to pin down. Impossible maybe! LOL ut I'm curious to hear opinions.
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[*] posted on 17-8-2015 at 15:23


Quote: Originally posted by Semiexpyrokid  
Everyone knows that because something went smoothly 100X, that #101 won't get you. Of 9 out of 10, 999 out of 1000... Attempting to "quantify risk" by saying I've done it this way for X years...doesn't quite hack it. Obviously luck, or part of your procedure, that you may or may not even be aware of, are big drivers. But these things CAN be hard to quantify. Any ideas on the "best" way? Note I'm quite aware this is a rather fuzzy and hard question to pin down. Impossible maybe! LOL ut I'm curious to hear opinions.





Best way for what exactly?




Where there is a will
there is a way.

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[*] posted on 17-8-2015 at 23:39


Peroxide is stable if you neutralize it well from acids. I stored 10g of AP in a plastic casing at room temp. for 5 months and nothing wrong happened

please review : http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=29346&...
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[*] posted on 18-8-2015 at 09:07


Quote: Originally posted by ecos  
Peroxide is stable if you neutralize it well from acids. I stored 10g of AP in a plastic casing at room temp. for 5 months and nothing wrong happened

please review : http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=29346&...

Your link doesn't work!
Where you refering to your tread Hydrogen Peroxyde Explosives?

[Edited on 18-8-2015 by PHILOU Zrealone]




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[*] posted on 19-8-2015 at 09:04


"Anyone who says peroxides are stable and can be handled safely is not a real chemist"
Let's clarify the definicion of "not stable":
- HMTD degrades over time;
- HMTD will not explode for no reason.
Some people actually tested sensitivity of peroxides and other properties: "Primary Explosives" Robert Matyáš, Jiří Pachman
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PHILOU Zrealone
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[*] posted on 19-8-2015 at 09:30


Quote: Originally posted by byko3y  
"Anyone who says peroxides are stable and can be handled safely is not a real chemist"
Let's clarify the definicion of "not stable":
- HMTD degrades over time;
- HMTD will not explode for no reason.
Some people actually tested sensitivity of peroxides and other properties: "Primary Explosives" Robert Matyáš, Jiří Pachman

There is peroxyde and peroxyde...
-Even if sensitive HMTD, CTAP (CDAP-CTeAP) are handlable unconfined in minute amount without much risk.
-Other peroxydes are touchy sensitive like diisopropyl ether peroxyde and diethylether peroxyde.
-Other are "stable" and transportable by kg or tons
See:
*H2O2 (up to 50% = 200 Volumes O2/ L)
*benzoyl peroxyde (C6H5-CO-O-CO-C6H5),
*urea peroxyde(NH2-CO-NH2.H2O2),
*sodium percarbonate (2Na2CO3·3H2O2)
*sodium perborate (NaBO3·H2O/NaBO2(OH)2 or dimeric Na2B2O4(OH)4)
*sodium peroxosulfate (Na2SO5)
*sodium peroxodisulfate (Na2S2O8)
*...


[Edited on 19-8-2015 by PHILOU Zrealone]




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[*] posted on 21-8-2015 at 09:32


Can somebody give info about TMDD?Only heard that it is quite insensitive to shock and friction.
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PHILOU Zrealone
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[*] posted on 22-8-2015 at 03:05


Quote: Originally posted by kecskesajt  
Can somebody give info about TMDD?Only heard that it is quite insensitive to shock and friction.

Maybe give a longer explicit name than TMDD or the putative way it is produced... that acronym doesn't lead to a known chemical compound.




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greenlight
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[*] posted on 22-8-2015 at 03:42


I think he is talking about Tetramethylendiperoxidedicarbamide.

Info here: http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=3305

Think it is less powerful than HMTD but more sensitive to impact.




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[*] posted on 22-8-2015 at 03:42


Quote: Originally posted by PHILOU Zrealone  
Quote: Originally posted by kecskesajt  
Can somebody give info about TMDD?Only heard that it is quite insensitive to shock and friction.

Maybe give a longer explicit name than TMDD or the putative way it is produced... that acronym doesn't lead to a known chemical compound.

Tetramethylenediperoxidedicarbamide
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=3305
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greenlight
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[*] posted on 22-8-2015 at 03:49


Hahahaha, same link, same time:D

[Edited on 22-8-2015 by greenlight]




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[*] posted on 22-8-2015 at 06:37


Wow.
Self experience:Dried good, cant detonate with friction,only detonated the 1/3 amount of powder I placed on an anvil when struck VERY hard.
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