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Author: Subject: Nitration without sulfuric acid?
testimento
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[*] posted on 9-7-2013 at 19:09
Nitration without sulfuric acid?


Since sulfuric acid is not very easily nor cheaply available even in small quantities, I was wondering wether normal nitrations, like PETN, could be processed without using sulfuric acid but only white nitric acid? Stuff like RDX even must be done so, but can this be ordered for any nitration?
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sargent1015
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[*] posted on 9-7-2013 at 19:20


Guess it depends on where you are from, but Wal-mart has Liquid Lightning drain opener. Sulfuric acid is still much cheaper than nitric acid (thanks to Hazmat fees). Even battery acid is easy to obtain and concentrate from a car repair shop (NAPA).



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Motherload
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[*] posted on 9-7-2013 at 20:33


The best synt of PETN recommends use of WFNA only.
If H2SO4 is limited WFNA can be made by distilling 68% HNO3 with twice the amount of conc. H2SO4.
The H2SO4 can be later boiled and recycled.




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Ral123
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[*] posted on 9-7-2013 at 23:03


I guess, without sulfuric, you'll need large excess of wfna or get a lot of lower nitrates. You can for example use 100ml wfna and add 10g pentaerithritol. Then bubble pure SO2 trough the solution, then add more penta and so on... I'm not too sure about the procedure.
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scottjm
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[*] posted on 10-7-2013 at 23:44


If you buy the Liquid lightning make sure to buy the blue label stuff, because the red label is only 44.25% pure vs the blue at 94.19. (source: http://liquidlightning.net/webadmin/doc_manager/uploads/125_... http://liquidlightning.net/webadmin/doc_manager/uploads/123_... )

Also almost any hardware store sells some kind of sulfuric acid for between $6.50 and $20.00 per liter.

Will a nitrate work without sulfuric acid? I am no expert, but I would think not. Remember your goal is the nitronium ion. The reaction goes like 2 H2SO4 + HNO3 → 2 HSO− 4 + NO+ 2 + H3O+ (sorry about the ion charges i do not know how to use sub, and super script here) .

Also if your drain cleaner is not clear (sometimes even dark purple to black in color) do not worry it will work. It is mostly dissolved carbon compounds. I do not remember exactly what to do, but there was a way using concentrated H2O2 that you could oxidize the carbon. It would simply bubble away as COx.
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[*] posted on 11-7-2013 at 06:35


Look for these: <img src="./images/xpblue/bb_subscript.gif" /> <img src="./images/xpblue/bb_superscript.gif" />
Quote: Originally posted by bfesser  
Some time ago, I coded up some buttons that you will see on the "Post Reply" page under the "Text Color:" dropdown (<strong>x<sub>y</sub></strong> and <strong>x<sup>y</sup></strong>;), and <a href="viewthread.php?tid=18651#pid242812">Polverone was gracious enough to fix my errors and implement them</a>. For those who can type BBCode tags, you can use &#91;sub&#93;&#91;/sub&#93; and &#91;sup&#93;&#91;/sup&#93;. Or for HTML junkies like myself, use &lt;sub&gt;&lt;/sub&gt; and &lt;sup&gt;&lt;/sup&gt;.

<strong><a href="viewthread.php?tid=15528#pid201809">Subscript</a></strong> thread




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Trotsky
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[*] posted on 13-7-2013 at 13:18


Yeah you can clean it up with a little 35% H2O2, but when I then used it in a nitration there was a while lot of bubbling that was a little worrisome.
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scottjm
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[*] posted on 13-7-2013 at 13:59


Quote: Originally posted by Trotsky  
Yeah you can clean it up with a little 35% H2O2, but when I then used it in a nitration there was a while lot of bubbling that was a little worrisome.


Your problem might be the fact H2O2 (hydrogen peroxide) is not at all the same thing as H2SO4 (sulfuric acid), or HNO3 (Nitric acid). If you don't know the difference between these things you might want to take a step away from HE's.
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[*] posted on 13-7-2013 at 17:14


Scottjm, you are misunderstanding what Trotsky said. He used H2O2 to clean up his dirty sulfuric acid not use H2O2 in place of the acid. ;)
It is common practice to clean up OTC sulfuric acid by small additions of H2O2 and then heating. The reason his bubbled when he used it for a nitration is because he probably forgot to heat it up after he finished cleaning it, so when the HNO3 was added it heated up and finished the reaction with the peroxide.
Read up on the Piranha Solution.

Edit: (maybe this caused the intense bubbling)
I read on that wiki page, the piranha solution, if made with the correct amount of H2O2 will make H2SO5. Could someone elaborate more on that?

[Edited on 7-14-2013 by chemcam]




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testimento
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[*] posted on 13-7-2013 at 22:52


Well my question was actually that if one got WFNA, could nitrations be done without sulfuric acid? Like PETN and others?
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