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Author: Subject: Pure Gasses You Can Make... Any Ideas?
PickledPackratParalysis
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[*] posted on 17-7-2013 at 06:41
Pure Gasses You Can Make... Any Ideas?


I don't have a chemistry set but I did build my own simple electrolysis cell.... I have successfully produced 'pure' hydrogen and oxygen from the electrolysis of water... I know, noob stuff, but... I think that you can get 'relatively' pure CO2 from the baking soda/vinegar thing and also from yeast metabolism of sugar. The yeast one may not be the best because there's ethanol vapors in the gas that may mess up your experiments. You can get chlorine gas by reacting bleach with ammonia, but I have never tried that because it kills on contact! :cool:
I don't really know any other 'pure' gasses or useful mixtures of gas I can make.
Do y'all know any 'nooby' experiments I can do to get other good gasses?
Helium, Nitrogen, Laughing Gas?

This is just for something fun to do and to have the knowledge... I don't need a specific kind of gas but I want to broaden my knowledge of what I can make.

Thanks!
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[*] posted on 17-7-2013 at 06:52


I know its not pure but iirc thermal decomp of ammonium nitrate will yield nitrous oxide the famed laughing gas.
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PickledPackratParalysis
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[*] posted on 17-7-2013 at 07:14


I don't think I have ammonium nitrate.... Could I get that by doing something simple to ammonia? As I said before I don't have a chemistry lab... If you have a way to do it with household stuff then I would be happy to try though.
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[*] posted on 17-7-2013 at 07:15


Do you want safe gases... or any gases? ;)



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Mailinmypocket
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[*] posted on 17-7-2013 at 07:22


You can produce nitrogen via sulfamic acid/sodium nitrite...oxygen via hydrogen peroxide MnO2, Ag, KMnO4 etc etc...
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[*] posted on 17-7-2013 at 07:35


Quote: Originally posted by PickledPackratParalysis  
You can get chlorine gas by reacting bleach with ammonia, but I have never tried that because it kills on contact!


What you're saying is not totally right, to get chlorine from bleach you need to use HCl not ammonia. The reaction with ammonia is far worse than just making chlorine gas. Let me try to explain.

If ammonia is in excess you may get this: 2NH3 + NaOCl → N2H4 + NaCl + H2O. So, N2H4' is hydrazine which is explosive. Although this isn't likely without better controlled environment, crazier things have happened.

If bleach is in excess you'll probably get mainly chloramine with some Cl2 but nowhere near pure. NaOCl + 2HCl → Cl2 + NaCl + H2O and then the chloine gas would react with ammonia: 2NH3 + Cl2 → 2NH2Cl
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Helium is a noble gas so I doubt it can me made without the nuclear fusion of hydrogen, or radioactive decay of something.
----
You can make Oxygen from hydrogen peroxide and potassium permanganate.
----
You can make Methyl Mercaptan from H2S and Methanol over alumina. It smells like rotten cabbage.
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[*] posted on 17-7-2013 at 07:36


Here is a website that I stumbled upon a few years ago which you may find informative and useful:
<a href="http://mattson.creighton.edu/Microscale_Gas_Chemistry.html" target="_blank"><strong>Microscale Gas Chemistry</strong> by Bruce Mattson, Ph.D., Department of Chemistry, Creighton University, Omaha NE</a> <img src="../scipics/_ext.png" />
I suppose there's nothing more interesting in Nebraska than the air...

<img src="../scipics/_warn.png" /> Mixing household bleach (typically 5.25% w/v aqueous NaOCl) and ammonia (aqueous 5-10% NH<sub>3</sub>;) can produce a <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bleach#Chemical_interactions" target="_blank">mixture toxic gases</a> <img src="../scipics/_wiki.png" />. <img src="../scipics/_warn.png" />

[edit]
You don't need KMnO<sub>4</sub> to catalyze H<sub>2</sub>O<sub>2</sub> decomp. A drop of blood, a chunk of liver, a slice of potato, or even a pinch of baker's yeast is sufficient.
Helium <em>can</em> be isolated from the atmosphere (no nuclear reactor necessary!), but it's difficult, and likely beyond the means of most amateurs.

<strong>chemcam</strong>, where do you get these crazy ideas? :P

[Edited on 7/17/13 by bfesser]




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PickledPackratParalysis
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[*] posted on 17-7-2013 at 08:32


Quote: Originally posted by sargent1015  
Do you want safe gases... or any gases? ;)


I made hydrogen before and that wasn't exactly what most people would call safe... especially when I tested it with a red hot arc of steel wire... "BOOM!" Luckily it was just one test tube full of it and the cap was off so it was more a rocket than a bomb, but it startled the heck out of me... Didn't know you could make something so cool out of salt water!

But I am not interested in poisoning anyone, so toxic gasses are nice to know in theory but I wouldn't make many.... Though it might be fun to mix tiny amounts of bleach and ammonia in a sealed jar full of bugs to see how fast it takes effect. Using laughing gas on bugs would be fun too :cool:

"You can produce nitrogen via sulfamic acid/sodium nitrite...oxygen via hydrogen peroxide MnO2, Ag, KMnO4 etc etc..."

What's the common names for sulfamic acid and sodium nitrate? Are they easy to get?
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[*] posted on 17-7-2013 at 08:37


<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_nitrite" target="_blank">Sodium nitr<u>i</u>te</a> <img src="../scipics/_wiki.png" />, not nitr<u>a</u>te! <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sulfamic_acid" target="_blank">Sulfamic acid</a> <img src="../scipics/_wiki.png" /> <em>is</em> the common name. I recall seeing an espresso machine descaler that was nearly pure sulfamic acid.

Of course, the wiki article has an obligatory <strong>woelen</strong> photo. :D

[edit]
Of course, now that I mention it, the highest I can find is 15%&hellip;

Attachment: durgol-swiss-espresso-MSDS.pdf (72kB)
This file has been downloaded 360 times

[Edited on 7/17/13 by bfesser]




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[*] posted on 17-7-2013 at 09:40


The nitrite/sulfamic acid method for nitrogen works quite well, and vigorously...

[Edited on 17-7-2013 by Mailinmypocket]
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[*] posted on 17-7-2013 at 09:44


Quote: Originally posted by bfesser  

Helium <em>can</em> be isolated from the atmosphere (no nuclear reactor necessary!), but it's difficult, and likely beyond the means of most amateurs.

<strong>chemcam</strong>, where do you get these crazy ideas? :P

[Edited on 7/17/13 by bfesser]


What crazy ideas are you speaking of? Methyl Mercaptan? If so, I just have an obsession with sulfur compounds and work with them quite often.
----
Yes, helium can be isolated from the atmosphere but most of it got there by radioactive decay, right? The only reason I didn't mention the atmosphere is because it didn't fit the methods the OP had started with. It seemed to me like he wants a more interactive approach with things that are a bit more simple, like you hinted at.
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I told him to use KMnO4 in the decomp of H2O2 because it is rather spectacular and awe-inducing. Granted you can decomp it many ways, this is just my favorite.
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The OP is not asking for the most efficient way to do any of this he just wants to make some gasses by doing simple experiments. Why try to make it look like I am wrong? Everything I said was correct just not fully detailed. Instead of saying "You don't need KMnO4 to catalyze H2O2 decomp" you could have said, you can also use "A drop of blood, ... ..." if you don't have the mentioned KMnO4.




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[*] posted on 17-7-2013 at 09:59


Oh, relax; just the nuclear reactor thing. ;)

Now that I think about it, one could start with balloon grade helium as a feed stock which would make isolation and purification <em>much</em> easier. This would make a nice <strong><a href="forumdisplay.php?fid=20">Prepublication</a></strong> project for anyone so inclined.

I was merely suggesting some cheap and readily-available alternatives to KMnO<sub>4</sub>. You know my writing is wonky, so please don't try to read into it.




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[*] posted on 17-7-2013 at 10:09


How about ozone? Install an electrical discharge device or UV-C lamps into a container and fill it with oxygen (from water electrolysis, H2O2 etc..) How high concentrations could be achieved this way? Wikipedia says 3 to 6% using a corona discharge machine and air and I guess it can be higher in a closed container and pure oxygen (which also eliminates the formation of nitrogen oxides). High enough to smell it at least?

[Edited on 17.7.2013 by tubelectric]

[Edited on 17.7.2013 by tubelectric]
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[*] posted on 17-7-2013 at 10:14


Alright, bfesser, that's my mistake sometimes I do read into things a little too far. Perhaps I thought you were carrying over frustration from that other thread. But trust me when I say I will not be getting involved with those type of threads anymore. I am here for chemistry! :)



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[*] posted on 17-7-2013 at 10:31


Back on topic:
Ozone generation has been discussed <em><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_nauseam" target="_blank">ad nauseam</a></em> <img src="../scipics/_wiki.png" />. (It's a pun! Get it? You know, because O<sub>3</sub> makes you&hellip; sick&hellip; oh, nevermind!)

Here are links to some recent activity:
<strong><a href="viewthread.php?tid=24934">Ozone solubilities - Chlorocarbons</a>
<a href="viewthread.php?tid=8343">Electrochemical ozone generation</a>
<a href="viewthread.php?tid=23234">Ozone-generator for decontamination</a>
<a href="viewthread.php?tid=375">O3?</a></strong>




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[*] posted on 17-7-2013 at 10:48


The title contains "pure", yet no pure gases are being discussed.

Any reaction in aqueous solution which gives off gases will not produce pure gases. They will be contaminated with water vapor which doesn't settle, like aerosol settles after a while, but is carried along.

The only reactions I can remember right now, giving pure gaseous phase, are thermal decomposition of potassium permanganate, which produces oxygen, and explosive thermal decomposition of sodium azide, giving nitrogen.

I think there are inorganic compounds which, on heating, give off halogen elements and solid product. Obviously, highly reactive compounds. I can't remember any at the moment, though.

Hydrogen infused into some metals can not be considered as part of a compound, so that's not important.




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[*] posted on 17-7-2013 at 10:52


Well, you could always bubble the gases through sulfuric acid (or a dry ice condenser in some cases) to get rid of the water vapor. Or baked cotton balls. Depends on how much moisture you'll tolerate before you consider your gas 'impure'.




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[*] posted on 17-7-2013 at 11:12


I know, but the topic of production of immediately pure gases is something that's usually mentioned during the academic education as something special.

We can purify everything if we want to, even complex gaseous mixtures, so the whole notion of "pure" in the terms of getting mixture is pointless.
I can say my ass produces pure carbon dioxide because I can take the expelled gas and remove everything but CO2, just as I can take any aqueous, gas producing reaction and remove water, or decomposition of a solid into two gases and remove one of them (lead(II) nitrate gives off oxygen and nitrogen dioxide, ammonium dichromate gives off nitrogen and water vapor).




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[*] posted on 17-7-2013 at 12:06


So if you mix sodium nitrite-containing espresso cleaner with blood you get an explosion that gives you Nitrogen? So many different takes on that part that it is kind of hard to tell...

And the ozone production seemed kind of cool... I think I can make the electric reactor if someone would give more precise instructions of what needs to be done... I am seeing a lot of ways to potentially make ozone but more info on how to do the one where you electrically discharge in oxygen would be nice.

As far as pure goes I don't need PURE pure... just want something I can work with in other experiments.
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[*] posted on 17-7-2013 at 12:14


There are plenty of details in the topic (<strong>Electrochemical ozone generation</strong>;) I linked to above. Please read it completely before asking for more spoon-feeding.



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[*] posted on 17-7-2013 at 12:18


You can do an electrolysis on Potassium Chloride solution to make Potassium chlorate!

On topic with gasses, Potassium chlorate decomposes to Potassium chloride and Oxygen.
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[*] posted on 17-7-2013 at 12:34


Espresso cleaner contains sulfamic acid, not sodium nitrite! Combining sulfamic acid (or sodium nitrite for that matter) with blood certainly would not create nitrogen gas.
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[*] posted on 17-7-2013 at 12:47


I think the OP refers to production of gasses from reactions which can be done fairly easily with common chemicals from aqueous solution. Some water vapor always will be present then, but besides that, quite some gases can be made in a 'pure' state, simply bubbling out of solution. I will mention a few (I did all of these myself a few times, many of the reactions are on my website):

O2: dilute 6% H2O2 and MnO2, dilute 6% H2O2 and KMnO4
CO2: sodium bicarbonate and any dilute acid
Cl2: TCCA and dilute HCl, Ca(ClO)2 and dilute HCl (beware: very toxic)
H2S: FeS or Na2S and dilute HCl (beware: very toxic, numbs sense of smell)
CH3ONO: add some NaNO2 to a solution of CH3OH in dilute H2SO4
CH3CH2ONO: add some NaNO2 to a luke-warm solution of CH3CH2OH in dilute H2SO4
ClO2: NaClO2 added to moderately concentrated HCl (beware: dangerously explosive)
CH3OCl: add some CH3OH to a mix of bleach and acetic acid (beware: when ignited, it explodes)
H2: Al in dilute HCl, Mg in dilute HCl, electrolysis
CH3CH3: Electrolysis of a solution of sodium acetate, acidified with acetic acid
CO: Add some formic acid to concentrated H2SO4
NO2: Add some copper to concentrated HNO3 (65%)
NO/NO2-mix: Add some sodium nitrite to warm dilute sulphuric acid
SO2: Add some solid sodium metabisulfite to appr. 50% H2SO4 and heat gently.
ONBr: Add some solid NaNO2 to 40% HBr
NO: Add some solid NaNO2 to an acidified solution of FeSO4. Avoid contact with air.
(CN)2: Add some solid KCN to a solution of CuSO4 and heat gently (beware: extremely toxic)
HCl: Add some solid NaCl to conc. H2SO4; drip conc. H2SO4 into conc. hydrochloric acid
PH3: Add a piece of white P to a solution of NaOH and heat gently. Avoid contact with air!
C2H2: Add a piece of calcium carbide to water
ClN3: Add a solution of NaN3 to a mix of bleach and acetic acid (beware: ClN3 explodes when ignited)

All of the above experiments are very simple, the gases simply bubble out of the liquid, neatly and not violently. You easily can get a test tube filled with the (nearly) pure gas. The most violent is the production of CO2.




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papaya
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[*] posted on 17-7-2013 at 13:03


Any wet method for N2O (preferably pure) ?
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[*] posted on 17-7-2013 at 13:12


Sure. Sulfamic acid plus nitric acid (around azeotropic concentration). Or you could try this:
https://www.erowid.org/archive/rhodium/chemistry/nitrous.htm...

But in either case you would want to run the resulting gas through one or more scrubbers before you could call it 'pure'.

To woelen's list I would also add ethylene and propylene, either of which can be produced by dehydrating the appropriate alcohol with sulfuric acid.




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