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Author: Subject: Darwin's Black Box
Cyrus
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[*] posted on 23-9-2004 at 20:29


I may have misspoken but I didn't mean that the world was "so amazing, therefore it must be created"

I just thought that , IMO, that the world is so complex that it SEEMS like it has a creator to me.

Big difference.

Anyhow, I also realize that it's impossible to prove that no one can ever find some way to make the proteins "evolve", at least currently. That's why I said this book does not disprove evolution.

Twospoons, I was vague about blood, sorry, but lets assume it's human blood.
Also, the "explanation" you gave to how it could have evolved seems good, until you look at the nitty gritty stuff. That's where all explanations currently fail.




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[*] posted on 24-9-2004 at 01:54


Quote:
Originally posted by Cyrus
I may have misspoken but I didn't mean that the world was "so amazing, therefore it must be created"

I just thought that , IMO, that the world is so complex that it SEEMS like it has a creator to me.

Big difference.

Anyhow, I also realize that it's impossible to prove that no one can ever find some way to make the proteins "evolve", at least currently. That's why I said this book does not disprove evolution.

Twospoons, I was vague about blood, sorry, but lets assume it's human blood.
Also, the "explanation" you gave to how it could have evolved seems good, until you look at the nitty gritty stuff. That's where all explanations currently fail.


No offense man but your assuming that only one thing can evolve at a time.Not to mention the possiblety that external microbes could have had a role in it.Like providng the need to evolve something diferent and then it getts hammered out to adapt.I know this is a bad example buty you get the idea?
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[*] posted on 24-9-2004 at 09:54


Quote:

Either all of the enzymes appeared all at once, or they appeared gradually.
If you say that somehow all of the enzymes were mutated into existance at once, take a class on probability.
If they appeared gradually, they would be useless at best unless the whole system is there.

Even if most of the proteins were there, it wouldn't have a good reason to be selected, think of people who bleed to death because they lack Christmas factor.
Natural selection doesn't help there.

Let's say, somehow, all of the proteins nessecary to clot blood were there. The animal would die of blood clots, because it still needs those removal enzymes.

His point is that is that this system cannot develop gradually, because until it is finished, it's a hindrance and not a help, and Natural Selection, which y'all have told me many times DOES work , will not select this organism.


Did you take into consideration that a simpler system of blood clotting evolved into a more complicated and efficient one? I guess not. Its the way things work. For example, a species which developped the capability of blood clotting would have a survival advantage as opposed to other organisms which do not have one and which would require ages for the blood to dry naturally, having a greater chance of losing too much blood and dying at a smaller age.

Also, you must not take the blood into consideration as appearing at one stage in evolution. Transport systems in organisms took ages to evolve to the current stage, passing through a millons of literally 'trail and error' work. Just nowadays there are various transport systems in the different Classes in Kingdom Animalia (some don't even require one). Therefore the blood clotting factors you mentioned could not have appeared in the first organism which possessed a simple circulatory system. The process is actually very complex, but if you study Biology and Biochemistry you will see how simple things spring into life. Humans, together with the rest of all known organisms are after all just atoms forming molecules and ions, which interact in various ways to bring about responses to the environment. Saying this I am not saying that any form of creator does not exist, I simply sustain that what we call 'life' could have started all by itself and mutated to the present day.

Edit: And btw, the 'christmas factor' you mentioned is probably Factor VIII. People with haemophilia do not possess such a factor, and may bleed to death.

[Edited on 24-9-2004 by Esplosivo]




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[*] posted on 24-9-2004 at 19:36


Quote:
Originally posted by Esplosivo
Did you take into consideration that a simpler system of blood clotting evolved into a more complicated and efficient one? I guess not.


Actually he did. That's the point. Removing any one enzyme and leaving the rest the same breaks the system. Therefore the system couldn't have evolved directly from a more simple one. The proposed test is "see if there's any element that can be removed, keeping the others the same, without entirely breaking the system." Unfortunately, this criterion is not necessary for recognizing reducibility.

Cyrus: Convincingly showing any of the systems Behe describes to be reducible could take years of work. What good would it do? True believers would just say "OK, so we made a mistake on that one. The other examples still stand. Oh, and have you seen the new edition? This one has two dozen new examples, and Behe says THESE ones are ironclad."

The fact is, the burden of proof lies on Behe. In order for anyone to spend serious amounts of effort refuting his claims, he first needs to provide some reason to believe them. But all we get is his word. Even this might merit some consideration, if not for the fact that Behe has shown himself incapable of recognizing reducibility even in simple configurations. But he has.
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[*] posted on 25-9-2004 at 17:51


That book you read , must be a book which names reasons why the Theoru of evolution cannot be right. Missing Links, Africa, Strange Beings, Skulls, Neanderthalers DinoSaurs,will problably be mentioned.

Isnt it all about , believing the theory or not. The people who dont believe the theory of evolution seem to be Religious in generall. But where do the Scriptures speak about an idea that such theorem cant be Right?


QUOTE
First,

"Evolution isn't a "belief", it's a scientific fact. .

Well Fate or belief, Christian, Jew and Muslim, Are also Scientific. Do you think that belief like Christianity is based on lies? The lies of today are all caused by the men who used and still use Faith for their own purposes. Faith,and i mean the monotheistic faith all speak about the same Things,Same Ideas. Its just that you cant wright all the scientific facts into the bible now can ya? A All-Knowing and ever-Present Formula can predict and confirm lots of issues. Not all these isseus ,like that of Evolution, have to be reffered to in special.
The people of these Faiths are twisting and bending there faith to get to there own ideas, And so they maybe coming to conclusions that Theorem such as Evolution cant be right.

In the end God Created everything The Earth and the Skyes . Its only that some people have in mind that, this creation just Happend with a BeeP' or something.
They maybe Seeing god as a Man, With a huge Wonderstick..or a being like thereselfs. God isnt like anything they say.God Must be above anything men say about GOD

Doesnt the Theory Predicts that Live came out of Water? And from there to the Land and to the Birds andsovort?
Doesnt the Bible say the same thing? -unsure-

Al with All, Science is a means of getting a better grip on life, on understanding Oneself. Science is not a end on its self.

Would like to advise everyone to place all The science Men are doing in A bigger Perspective ,a Bigger Hole.

Science isnt the opposite off Faith. Its the supporter off Faith.

Science, one should use to get to be a better Human-beying, To get closer to 'good'. When you use science to an end on itself, it will not bring you anything that waiste of time. It will not bring you a more pleasant life, not a bigger joy in Understanding Things. And afters all its all oabout these things.

Science can show you how marvellous and Perfect the world is organised , that it is just overwhelming and Fantastic Really. Its just that you must be able to see this and to aknowledge this.

In Fact the mountains and the earth have all effects on our Birth, which on itself is something to be thougt off. We live in a World which forms a 'Hole' With ourselfs~! the very fact Fact that we are able to deside whats good and whats not good has a connexion with our 'dead' environment~! WE DO Form a Complete Hole With our environment. All things which are to be thought off.

Also Science and Knowledge are the greatest things men can have. Everyone can have Lots of money ,but not all can understand. One must protect Money, yet is is Knowledge that protects men.

Science is to be used for The Understanding of live, the inspiration which flows out of this Understanding, The energy to live on, To Seek for Better Good".

I now wonder of all these things ive mentioned are onTopic? Hope So.

I' ve read about an experiment which synthesizes organic complex molecules out of simple atoms and molecules. Lightning hexan and water i think were a couple of the ingredients of the experiment. Anyways, do some of yall have experience with this experiment, Am interested to try for myself. If its posssible anyhow.




And Very Off-topic..
Now im posting, wanna ask y'all,
Lithium Carbonate
Sodium fluorofosphate
sodium molybdate

Any 'special' uses for these Chemicals i wonder about? Like in Experiments andso.




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[*] posted on 26-9-2004 at 04:12
A few points


"That book you read , must be a book which names reasons why the Theoru of evolution cannot be right. Missing Links, Africa, Strange Beings, Skulls, Neanderthalers DinoSaurs,will problably be mentioned."

Perhaps you could, in detail, names these reasons. I'd like to hear them.

"Well Fate or belief, Christian, Jew and Muslim, Are also Scientific."

Not so. To be scientific, they would follow the scientific method. This they do not do.

"Do you think that belief like Christianity is based on lies?"

Whether based on lies or not is irrelevent: faith has nothing to do with science.

"In the end God Created everything The Earth and the Skyes"

There is no evidence for this.

"Doesnt the Theory Predicts that Live came out of Water?"

It doesn't predict that. Based on current knowledge, it is likely that the first life evolved in an aqueous environment.

"Doesnt the Bible say the same thing? -unsure-"

Make enough statements and you're bound to get something right.

"Science isnt the opposite off Faith. Its the supporter off Faith."

Faith is irrelevent to science.

"In Fact the mountains and the earth have all effects on our Birth"

How exactly?

"Also Science and Knowledge are the greatest things men can have."

True

"Everyone can have Lots of money ,but not all can understand."

I think it is the other way round




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[*] posted on 26-9-2004 at 08:31


Star:

Eat the lithium carbonate ;)

[Edit]: Dont get Li poisoned! :P

[Edited on 26-9-2004 by Saerynide]




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[*] posted on 26-9-2004 at 09:24


Quote:

"Also Science and Knowledge are the greatest things men can have." True

No. Wrong.
The greatest thing man can have is enough to drink and eat, a roof over his head, peace and sufficient sex including contraception for not overpopulating the earth even more.

Next comes recreational drugs.

Then comes a long long time nothing.

And then comes science, cultur, art, religion and all the other stuff which is not really necessary for a happy life.

On topic:
Oh - the bible speaks truth word by word it is the book of god?
And this is your god?
I despise you for praying to a the god of genozide, rape, murder, homicide and war.
Read the bible and you will find all this ordered by your god.
Disgusting!
Every small tribe in the deepest jungle has a better god than you have. At least a more truthful.

ORG




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[*] posted on 26-9-2004 at 15:52


"Also Science and Knowledge are the greatest things men can have." True


You Said :No. Wrong.
The greatest thing man can have is enough to drink and eat, a roof over his head, peace and sufficient sex including contraception for not overpopulating the earth even more.

I say: Why not overpopulate the earth then? What is it that will stop you from destructing your own World?
Do you think it is possible to get a roof, like the one now above your head , without Science and Knowledge ?
To get all that food and Water without Science?



They Said:Next comes recreational drugs.

Then comes a long long time nothing.

And then comes science, cultur, art, religion and all the other stuff which is not really necessary for a happy life.



i say: Not Necessary ?~ Well why dont you then, Live like animlas do>? Dont wear any close , dont speak with other people, Dont bother to go to the toilet just do it in your pence and just get used to the smell? Have Sex All day, Eat the ENtire day and just Die at the End? Whos Disgusting here now? I Dare You. Take off all your clothes and walk in such manner in a busy shopping mall, Three days. You cant. Even if you would do such thing, you would be ashamed. Now tell me Where does this Shame come From? Take the challenge.? You could takei t on camera and post it here, you being so stubern in saying that all Men need is What Animals Need…. Prove it Than.

They Said:On topic:
Oh - the bible speaks truth word by word it is the book of god?
And this is your god?

I Say: The things in the Bible have been changed by Men, Men who lie and deceat-wrongspelling?- Just to promote their own sick and unhuman ideas. And indeed these actions are truely Disgusting.

You SAid:I despise you for praying to a the god of genozide, rape, murder, homicide and war.

I say: No, I despise the people who promote these kind of actions. I despise this kind of people who get other people to do whatever their sick ideas incorporate, Like Genoside andsovort. And they used Religion as a tool for their purposes. The Bible isne just the Word of God, It ,now has changed to a book of the Word of Sick Men Too.

They Said:Read the bible and you will find all this ordered by your god.

Star Sez": Yes Indeed i will find Things written bu men, Sick in Intention. Popes, Clercs Kings,, Andsovort
My God is Your God and the Only God of the people of the tribes in Africa And it is the God Of everyone On this Forum And of Everyone On the Internet, And of the Mountains and of the Skyes and of the birds and the bees.


You Said:Disgusting!

I SAY: Its Far more disgusting than you ever could imagine….

They Said:Every small tribe in the deepest jungle has a better god than you have. At least a more truthful.

I say: Better god? Do you think 2gods can exist at the same time? No, No .God is incomparable. Because there is nothing to be compared to.





Tehy Said:A few points

"That book you read , must be a book which names reasons why the Theoru of evolution cannot be right. Missing Links, Africa, Strange Beings, Skulls, Neanderthalers DinoSaurs,will problably be mentioned."

TheySaidL:perhaps you could, in detail, names these reasons. I'd like to hear them.

I say: Details are very , deep in to the subject.Doesnt has to be Tough, but Havent got the time ,Really.

"Well Fate or belief, Christian, Jew and Muslim, Are also Scientific."

Not so. To be scientific, they would follow the scientific method. This they do not do.

I say: They do Not follow the scientific method. Faith is built on Knowledge.
Ive found a website with very clear examples of Science in Verses of God. I you want me to post them Just tell me. And tell me please. Are you open for Revolution? In your thnking anyways, Because if you arent My efforts will just be Futile nOw wouldent it be?

"Do you think that belief like Christianity is based on lies?"

they Said:Whether based on lies or not is irrelevent: faith has nothing to do with science.

I Say: It IS relevant . Tell me please, Where then, Is christianity based upon? I fit isnt Science?

I SAy: Faith has Everything to do with Science. Like i told Do you want me to post the Incredible examples of Science in the Scriptures.?

They Said"In the end God Created everything The Earth and the Skyes"

There is no evidence for this.

I say:What criteria should the evidence incorporate? Can you even Think about such a question? –thataGoodPhrase?!~-


They SAid:"Doesnt the Theory Predicts that Live came out of Water?"

It doesn't predict that. Based on current knowledge, it is likely that the first life evolved in an aqueous environment.

I SAy: Yes , exactly. It Incorporates that Live should be evolved out of Water.



They SAid: "Doesnt the Bible say the same thing? -unsure-"

Make enough statements and you're bound to get something right.

I say:Dont Understand you here?


they SAid :"Science isnt the opposite off Faith. Its the supporter off Faith."

Faith is irrelevent to science.

I say: Now Ishoukd and Will Post those Scientific Signs to faith. You being so Stuberrn in Not Understanding THat Faith has to do With Science.

They Say:"In Fact the mountains and the earth have all effects on our Birth"

How exactly?

I say: The things you eat. The earth it comes out. The Ecosystem Really. All is connected to one and another. We are all one with the rest , All effects Everything.

Tehy Said": "Also Science and Knowledge are the greatest things men can have."

True

I sayL: Glad we could agree on that.!~

"Everyone can have Lots of money ,but not all can understand."

I think it is the other way round

There are always lesser Smart Men Than Stupid ones. Be happy tob e of the ones tob e able tot hink yet i will not bring you any good iff your not using it to get tob e a better Human.


Someone thought about the experimet which gets organic molecules out of Inorganic molecules and Current? From, Dead to life? Seriously . Will it be possible to redo this experiment? MADSCI Style?

Yo Saernyde, man what Do you mean with Eating Lithium man. Has this LithiumCarbonate any Worth?

The Poet Said:
Oh, if a tree could wander
and move with foot and wings!
It would not suffer the axe blows
and not the pain of saws!
For would the sun not wander
away in every night ?
How could at every morning
the world be lighted up?
And if the ocean?s water
would not rise to the sky,
How would the plants be quickened
by streams and gentle rain?
The drop that left its homeland,
the sea, and then returned ?
It found an oyster waiting
and grew into a pearl.
Did Yusaf not leave his father,
in grief and tears and despair?
Did he not, by such a journey,
gain kingdom and fortune wide?
Did not the Prophet travel
to far Medina, friend?
And there he found a new kingdom
and ruled a hundred lands.
You lack a foot to travel?
Then journey into yourself!
And like a mine of rubies
receive the sunbeams? print!
Out of yourself ? such a journey
will lead you to your self,
It leads to transformation
of dust into pure gold!




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[*] posted on 27-9-2004 at 01:27


The Li+ ion is pyschoactive and makes you happy :P



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[*] posted on 28-9-2004 at 07:42


Quote:
Originally posted by Star
ou Said :No. Wrong.
The greatest thing man can have is enough to drink and eat, a roof over his head, peace and sufficient sex including contraception for not overpopulating the earth even more.

I say: Why not overpopulate the earth then? What is it that will stop you from destructing your own World?
Do you think it is possible to get a roof, like the one now above your head , without Science and Knowledge ?
To get all that food and Water without Science?



They Said:Next comes recreational drugs.

Then comes a long long time nothing.

And then comes science, cultur, art, religion and all the other stuff which is not really necessary for a happy life.



i say: Not Necessary ?~ Well why dont you then, Live like animlas do>? Dont wear any close , dont speak with other people, Dont bother to go to the toilet just do it in your pence and just get used to the smell? Have Sex All day, Eat the ENtire day and just Die at the End? Whos Disgusting here now? I Dare You. Take off all your clothes and walk in such manner in a busy shopping mall, Three days. You cant. Even if you would do such thing, you would be ashamed. Now tell me Where does this Shame come From? Take the challenge.? You could takei t on camera and post it here, you being so stubern in saying that all Men need is What Animals Need…. Prove it Than.


That's taking out of context to a new level since it's going against what he said(for your example is the oposite of what he stated is needed for a happy life).

You say the mountains effects our birth in the way they are part of the enviorment.In this context everything effects everything else inclduing what I"m thinking right now for the movement of quarts in my brain will cause galaxy's to sway in a few 2^456 years.

By faith you refer exclusivly to the chritian concept.Under your criteria that religion is based on science the same should aply to satanism.More strongly if you consider satanism is much newer and that goes against your idea of everything being created by a god.

Also just because religion is based on science(lets say your right) doesnt mean everything it says is correct any more than whatever a person claims to be 'scietific' will always be correct.For example the theory that the world is flat was(for the time)based on science as they didnt know about gravity.

[Edited on 28-9-2004 by IvX]
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[*] posted on 28-9-2004 at 15:42


Quote:

You Said: Also just because religion is based on science(lets say your right) doesnt mean everything it says is correct any more than whatever a person claims to be 'scietific' will always be correct.For example the theory that the world is flat was(for the time)based on science as they didnt know about gravity.


Hmm? Was it based ON Science? Even if it was, It wasnt Correct True Science, Therefore it was a Lie. Nothing more Nothing Less. Complete and Absolute Science And Knowledge is where im talking about.


Isaiah 40:22
It is He who sits above the circle of the earth,
And its inhabitants are like grasshoppers,
Who stretches out the heavens like a curtain,
And spreads them out like a tent to dwell in.


For you think you know...




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[*] posted on 29-9-2004 at 07:10
I think I know....


I think that I know...

That this thread has gone far astray from it's intent.

It was begun with the stated intent of discussing a novel.

Unfortunately it has degenerated to Religion V.S. Science.....

Neither the originator of this thread, nor any forum member who has actually read the book continues to participate in this discussion.

It has reached a point where the lowest common denominator holds the floor.

Vulture?




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[*] posted on 29-9-2004 at 07:14


I could write a very long explenation but instead I'll sumarise: you hvae all of nothing to back this up.
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[*] posted on 16-12-2007 at 15:55


Just ran across this again...

My dear old dad recently showed me a book about the terrible loop holes in evolution, proudly stating that evolution isn't all there is to life. I agreed to it in principle. But I didnt agree to it on theist principles, i.e. that god created man and is entirely unrelated to monkeys, or in fact any living thing on the planet.
I asked him whether he's aware of anyone publicly (in the form of books etc) criticising evolution who isn't a devout theist, of whatever kind.
Say, are there atheists that have ever published on the need for ID, or the total and utter failure of evolution, natural selection etc to explain the formation, and particularly progression, of life?

He confessed, indeed all the voicy anti-evolutionists are believers of this or that, but not a-theists.

Which begs the question - can we expect a rational *unbiased* argument of any theist on this very subject of how life began, and (excuse me for the lack of a better word), evolved?




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[*] posted on 16-12-2007 at 16:56


Ah, yes you can. Darwin himself was a theist - trained as a parish priest. The study of nature - plants, insects, geology etc - was regarded (and encouraged) by the Church of the time as a healthy and suitable interest for a young priest. Oh, the irony!



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[*] posted on 17-12-2007 at 09:20


AFAIK the Vatican and the Catholic Church has not taken a pro creationism position on evolution. To their credit they seemed to have evolved a bit from their previous mistake on planetary orbits, and described creationism as non science.;)
http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/01/18/news/evolution.php
Try searching Google with .....vatican on evolution....

As to Darwin being a priest, I don't know, but Gregor Mendel who outlined theories on inherited traits and genetics was a priest. Maybe there is some confusion there?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregor_Mendel
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[*] posted on 5-12-2008 at 19:25


Quote:

You cannot disprove creationism: that is the whole point - it is not testable. The gist being that god made everything and that is why things are the way they are. Creationism is is no different to saying the universe was manufactured by a gang of invisible chocolate moneys. Both are equally unsubstantiated and neither make testable predictions.



Exactly, it makes for a nice story, but there is absolutely no evidence to support it. There is zero ways to prove this "theory", "creationists" just flatly state "god made the world and that's that." Frankly I get a little sad when people try to pass this off as fact.

I mean hey, I'm not knocking having faith. That's cool if you do, but you can have faith and be logical. This is the 21st century and people still think the world was "created".
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[*] posted on 5-12-2008 at 20:33


Quote:

I mean hey, I'm not knocking having faith. That's cool if you do, but you can have faith and be logical. This is the 21st century and people still think the world was "created".


I have trepidation about getting into this discussion, as it is so easy to make enemies. But what bothers me is this constant admiration by many of people who have "a strong faith." What is so admirable about having faith that something illogical, or not supported by facts, or even refuted by facts, is nonetheless true?
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[*] posted on 6-12-2008 at 06:14


Where angels fear to tread, indeed. . .
I have to say, Magpie, that if I were a believer, I might well be a happier man, but to become a believer would require a certain loss of objectivity, on my part.
Any loss of that kind is too high a price to pay so I will be content to continue in a world with few apparent redeeming features.
The spurious promise of an "afterlife", it seems to me, is too potent for most people to resist and so, belief in the impossible becomes all *too* possible.
I sometimes, though, envy people their strong religious belief, but I certainly don't admire them for it.
I find, too, religious sentiment frequently irritating and overtly religious people annoyingly smug (often seemingly thickheaded) at the best of times.
I'm in the Dawkins' camp and only a (botched) lobotomy can change that.
'Hope that's not too OT.
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harrydrez
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[*] posted on 7-12-2008 at 10:24


Quote:
Originally posted by Magpie

I have trepidation about getting into this discussion, as it is so easy to make enemies. But what bothers me is this constant admiration by many of people who have "a strong faith." What is so admirable about having faith that something illogical, or not supported by facts, or even refuted by facts, is nonetheless true?


I understand what you mean here, however, I think you have misunderstood what I meant. I mean that one has a right to have faith, in whatever. Or not. I pretty much do not subscribe to any religion per say, but I believe that people should do what makes them happy. After all, it's our differences that make us interesting. I hope I don't sound like some hippie :p.

Yet, like I said in my previous post, or at least what I tried to convey: don't put your blinders on. People told stories, like about creation, because they had no idea how to answer these complex questions. Mankind has always questioned, wanted to know why, we're inquisitive. This is how science came to be.

To make a long story short we know a lot more than we did during these biblical times, so stories (like creation) become just that. These stories are part of some people's culture, so they might wish to tell them; yet to represent these stories as fact is just wrong. It just becomes a part of some people's cultures that is outdated, but it still practiced (like shaking hands). You can have faith, any faith, and still be a man of science. You have to take the stories of your religion with a grain of salt.

Can you see where I'm coming from?
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hissingnoise
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[*] posted on 7-12-2008 at 11:13


Quote:
Originally posted by harrydrez

You can have faith, any faith, and still be a man of science. You have to take the stories of your religion with a grain of salt.



That looks like very unscientific reasoning, harrydrez.
Having faith leaves no room for scepticism. . .
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[*] posted on 7-12-2008 at 14:35


Quote:

That looks like very unscientific reasoning, harrydrez. Having faith leaves no room for scepticism. . .


Yes it does. You have faith in the water company to give you potable water. Yet you will get skeptical once brown murk starts coming out of your faucet or you get sick.




One shouldn't accept or resort to the mutilation of science to appease the mentally impaired.
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hissingnoise
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[*] posted on 7-12-2008 at 15:32


Faith in the ability of utility companies to deliver what you want isn't quite the same thing as faith in a belief in the existence of a Supreme Being.
Essentially, if you're sceptical, you no longer believe.
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[*] posted on 23-6-2009 at 07:08


http://www.talkorigins.org/ is an archive covering much of the evolution vs. creationism debate.

Be sure to check the "index to creationist claims". Very good, very structured arguments.
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