| Pages:
1
2 |
AndersHoveland
Hazard to Other Members, due to repeated speculation and posting of untested highly dangerous procedures!
Posts: 1986
Registered: 2-3-2011
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Do not forget, this was before the Haber process. Most of that NaNO3 likely came from fossilized bird excrement in Chile ("Chile saltpetre"), or the
more recent Birkeland–Eyde process, by passing air through an electric arc and neutralizing the nitrogen oxides with solution of soda.
Again, NaNO3 is a really terrible oxidizer. Yes, KNO3 is the main ingredient in Black powder, but only because it has been finely crystalized
throughout the powder. Ever tried just burning black powder that has not been pre-soaked and dried? No matter how finely ground and well-mixed, it
only burns and flares, and very difficult to get to burn in small quantities. So KNO3 may be suitable for pyrotechnic compositions, but for actual
detonation, that is a different matter. Detonation proceeds best when the fuel and oxidizer are mixed on a molecular level, rather than a simple mix
of two separate solid phases. For a composition of Sodatol, the detonation velocity must really suffer, in fact it is probably not much more than if
one mixed TNT with an inert powder. Yet it will contribute oxygen to help burn off some of the TNT, even if the decomposition of NaNO3 is not very
energetic.
The only reason it was used is that NaNO3 was cheap.
|
|
|
caterpillar
Hazard to Others
Posts: 472
Registered: 8-1-2012
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Not true. NaNO3 is hygroscopic, this is the main reason, why KNO3 is used in BP.
Women are more perilous sometimes, than any hi explosive.
|
|
|
Ral123
National Hazard
Posts: 735
Registered: 31-12-2011
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
I think the lower density of the KNO3 somewhat contributes to the flame speed. I think the very low hygroscopicity is a must for a serious
application.
|
|
|
caterpillar
Hazard to Others
Posts: 472
Registered: 8-1-2012
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
AN is hygroscopic, but it is widely used in serious application. But powder and explosive are different things and there are different requirements
for them. BP must be dry, but pressed NC must be slightly wet. Generally, some amount of water in explosive often increases its performance.
Women are more perilous sometimes, than any hi explosive.
|
|
|
DubaiAmateurRocketry
National Hazard
Posts: 841
Registered: 10-5-2013
Location: LA, CA, USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: In research
|
|
Quote: Originally posted by Dany  | choosing between chlorate and perchlorate i will choose the perchlorate. Sodium perchlorate is more dense than potassium chlorate (2.5
g/cm3 vs 2.34 g/cm3). perchlorate are better than chlorate when safety is an issue. also sodium perchlorate has a low melting
point (130°C) compared to potassium chlorate (356°C) which make easier to melt the sodium perchlorate compositions
Dany. |
-Dany
Would like just to correct a small mistake that Potassium perchlorate is denser,
KClO4 Have a density of 2.524
NaClO4 Have a density of 2.499
NaClO4 Have a melting point of 468 degree celsius, rather than the 130 you mentioned.
The 130 is for the hydrated sodium perchlorate, which is rather very inefficient compared to anhydrous.
|
|
|
Fantasma4500
International Hazard
Posts: 1677
Registered: 12-12-2012
Location: Dysrope (aka europe)
Member Is Offline
Mood: dangerously practical
|
|
infact xClO3 with vaseline (petroleum jelly) is used under the name 'Cheddite C' its very often used by amateur uncertified demolitions experts, to
put it profesionally..
also xClO3 and sugar is used, it have been described as 'white powder' in a seemingly old scanned book on field manufactured explosives i have laying
around.. this composition does go off when hammered throughly, sensitivity increased alot if a percentage of aluminium powder is added, oxides would
probably do the same, perhaps both.. yes?
i recall having seen HDN mixed with KClO4, to improve the energy release and OB, i cant get data on this as the guy sadly went totally and entirely
gone all of a sudden.. i recall something around 80 20 HDN KClO4
he did not get to show any comparative tests but only a 20g charge being setoff with no targets or anything, but he said by his experience he could
feel there was a greater energy release
|
|
|
Ral123
National Hazard
Posts: 735
Registered: 31-12-2011
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
I despise hygroscopic energetics. Why would you use expensive KClO4 with HDN, to make one? Why ruin KClO3 with sugar? HDN is good party with AN. KClO3
with wax. KClO3, KClO4, KNO3 is good party with TNT, AN is good party with hydrazine.
|
|
|
killswitch
Hazard to Others
Posts: 209
Registered: 8-7-2011
Location: is a relative concept
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
What about TNT/NH4ClO4?
|
|
|
caterpillar
Hazard to Others
Posts: 472
Registered: 8-1-2012
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
For some reasons, NH4ClO4 is not used in explosive compositions as widely, as AN. I met one such composition (I do not remember proportions): NH4ClO4,
RDX, Al and small amount of paraffin. It was designed special for blusting hard rocks.
Women are more perilous sometimes, than any hi explosive.
|
|
|
killswitch
Hazard to Others
Posts: 209
Registered: 8-7-2011
Location: is a relative concept
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by caterpillar |
For some reasons, NH4ClO4 is not used in explosive compositions as widely, as AN. I met one such composition (I do not remember proportions): NH4ClO4,
RDX, Al and small amount of paraffin. It was designed special for blusting hard rocks. |
Might have something to do with the poisonous fumes given off.
|
|
|
Ral123
National Hazard
Posts: 735
Registered: 31-12-2011
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
NH4ClO4 mixtures would have good energy density, specially with Al added, but brisance suffers heavily. NH4ClO4 has lower velocity on it's own then
AN. So who needs this expensive, chemically aggressive mixture witch is outperformed by high power blast jelly anyway.
|
|
|
AndersHoveland
Hazard to Other Members, due to repeated speculation and posting of untested highly dangerous procedures!
Posts: 1986
Registered: 2-3-2011
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Just to mention again, it might not be possible to get sodium/potassium perchlorate mixtures to detonate, or at least it may likely be much more
difficult than the chlorate. Although perchlorate contains more oxygen, it is also more stable and less reactive chemically.
Normally simple fuel-oxidizer mixtures cannot be detonated (at least solid mixtures), but chlorate is somewhat of an exception to this because it
gives up its oxygen so easily. Nevertheless, the detonation velocity of chlorate-wax compositions is still very low. In fact, besides the use as a
cheap filler to create shrapnel, I doubt it has any practical use at all. Probably not much more effective than Black powder. The KClO3 and fuel are
in separate mechanical phases, not part of the same molecule, and KClO3 cannot decompose by itself, so that greatly limits the reaction rate.
Whether the oxidizer is incorporated into the actual crystal structure on a molecular level makes a big difference. So combine the fact that the
perchlorate oxidizer is in a separate phase (the sodium or potassium salt) and the fact that it has a higher decomposition temperature and is not
quite as reactive in fast combustion, and it may be that a simple mixture with wax is not sufficient to propagate detonation, like it is with
chlorate.
This is why it may take a much higher ratio of TNT in the composition if sodium perchlorate was used, making perchlorate more of an additive, rather
than a main component.
Again, this only applies to Na or K perchlorate mixes one is trying to get to actually detonate. For simply pyrotechnic uses, even flash powder,
potassium perchlorate works quite well.
[Edited on 4-10-2013 by AndersHoveland]
I'm not saying let's go kill all the stupid people...I'm just saying lets remove all the warning labels and let the problem sort itself out.
|
|
|
caterpillar
Hazard to Others
Posts: 472
Registered: 8-1-2012
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by AndersHoveland |
The KClO3 and fuel are in separate mechanical phases, not part of the same molecule, and KClO3 cannot decompose by itself, so that greatly limits the
reaction rate.
[Edited on 4-10-2013 by AndersHoveland] |
Small correction- KClO3 is an endothermic compound and therefore it can decompose by itself- even pure KClO3 can explode. Situation is just opposite
with KClO4- this one is an exothermic compound and can explode no more than NaCl. But mixtures with KClO3 are much more sensitive than mixtures, based
on AN. KClO4 on the other hand is more expensive than AN and produces smaller volume of gases. This is why mixtures with KClO3 have some interest only
for us, poor amateurs- there is a simple route to aforementioned oxidizer ( Ca(ClO)2 -> Ca(ClO3)2 -> KClO3 ).
Women are more perilous sometimes, than any hi explosive.
|
|
|
| Pages:
1
2 |
![[*]](images/xpblue/default_icon.gif){kind=icon}
