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Author: Subject: Fluoride measurements, common water
Antiswat
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[*] posted on 26-9-2013 at 03:02
Fluoride measurements, common water


i was thinking how is it possible to test for flouride, as flouride is a widely debated topic around the internet it didnt come as a surprise that it was nearly impossible to find tests for it..
some of you might know it, some may not..
in short, flourides are being added to drinking water, i suppose this is pretty much all over the world, the effects of it you may ask, i will leave that out as it comes around opinions..

one thing is testing that there is flouride in, my chemistry teacher has talked about electrolytically determining presence of flouride in water, another thing i think about : how can you get qualititive test (test for exact amounts, something measurable, some data)
it might be problematic when the scale were talking about would be as far down as 1ppm

anybody have an idea?

as for the salts: ive seen it mentioned to be contained within silicone molecules and the alike, so its not just straight NaF, i suppose..

<!-- bfesser_edit_tag -->[<a href="u2u.php?action=send&username=bfesser">bfesser</a>: corrected subject typo(s)]

[Edited on 26.9.13 by bfesser]




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[*] posted on 26-9-2013 at 03:53


I don't know of any silicones that contain fluorine; they may not be stable together. In solution, the typical combination is hexafluorosilicate.

If you're lucky enough to find an indicator that responds to fluoride in solution, you can do a spectrophotometric measurement. Otherwise, maybe atomic absorption or something like that.

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bfesser
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[*] posted on 26-9-2013 at 07:04


<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluoride_selective_electrode" target="_blank">F<sup>-</sup> ISE</a> <img src="../scipics/_wiki.png" />
<a href="http://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&q=aqueous+fluoride+determination&btnG=&as_sdt=1%2C24&as_sdtp=" target="_blank">Google Scholar Search</a> <img src="../scipics/_ext.png" />

Just reassure me that you're not one of <em>those</em> nutters... chemophobia is detrimental enough when it comes from the chemically illiterate.

[Edited on 26.9.13 by bfesser]




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[*] posted on 26-9-2013 at 07:54


It's very difficult to even determine extremely low levels of F<sup>-</sup> at home, let alone quantify it. I think lanthanum fluoride electrode is used for measuring F<sup>-</sup> in sediments, at least that's how it was done.
Other than that, spectrophotometry with special exotic complexes of lanthanides with alizarin, zirconium alizarin red S, etc.
Those are all expensive methods.

And no, it's not done all over the world. AFAIK it's basically an American thing and it was added in various forms throughout the history. Most, if not all other countries rely on sodium fluoride pills and fluoride gel as prophylaxis for small kids, plus few thousand ppm fluoride toothpastes and around half thousand ppm mouthwash. I used the pills as a kid and my teeth were "gelled" few times when I was very young. I kind of remember that. It was during the socialism, when free dental prophylaxis was an important thing the state actually cared about. Nowdays it's hardly ever mentioned, so I guess many kids don't receive that basic early protection, and when you combine stupid parents and Internet, with tons of its fluoride scare sources, I guess rates of cavities are about to go up in the next decades. It's very sad.

But don't worry, every tap water in existence has a relatively stable amount of F<sup>-</sup> in it. The one I drink contains above 0.1 ppm and that's considered low. There are places where the amount is a lot more than an order of magnitude higher. It all depends on the minerals in the ground. If there's lots of CaF<sub>2</sub> in your area, chances are high that you'll have more F<sup>-</sup> in your water supply.

And no, it's not dangerous. Only grossly high amounts found in few places around the world have been linked to chronic fluorosis.




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[*] posted on 26-9-2013 at 08:00


...... flouride, I assume you mean fluoride :)

A fluoride ion specific electrode is the way to go, will measure down to 1 ppm, linear and interference free!

The drawback is price, a few hundred dollars depending on model.
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[*] posted on 26-9-2013 at 08:52


The use of an Ion Selective Electrode for fluoride is not as straightforward as previously suggested. Having run analysis of fluorides in toothpaste in a quality assurance lab, we found that small differences in the concentration of the other ions in solution that differ from that of your calibration standards will make a large difference in the reported values. Another factor that needs to be considered is the pH of the solution and whether the fluoride is present as HF or F- (weak acid pKa =3.17) or associated with another ion present in solution. We found that the use of a reference electrode and use of TISAB ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_ionic_strength_adjustment... ) was needed. At a second job where we performed analysis of fluorides using ISE at very high concentrations in radioactive waste we found that the linearity of response at higher concentrations suffers. Typically we just calibrated daily using a complex line fit. A final note, using a glass beaker or other glassware can yield a value that slowly drifts downward as the fluoride tends to react with your glass at low pH.
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[*] posted on 26-9-2013 at 09:30


Quote: Originally posted by Endimion17  
AFAIK it's basically an American thing and it was added in various forms throughout the history.
<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_fluoridation#Use_around_the_world" target="_blank">Water Fluoridation #Use around the world</a> <img src="../scipics/_wiki.png" />
<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluoridation_by_country" target="_blank">Fluoridation by country</a> <img src="../scipics/_wiki.png" />

[Edited on 26.9.13 by bfesser]




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[*] posted on 27-9-2013 at 01:27


yes thats certainly not something thats possible to make at home.. just getting lanthanum would be a quest for me..

but again, without drawing too much of politics into it, the max amount i recall as having read yesterday as being 15 parts per billion, MAX.. so 1ppm is .. quite alot, most countries around the world rely on adding it to salt
im not chemphobic for sure, i have burned flashpowder with fluoride additive in several times inside (great idea i know!!)
but with all that i read about it, its getting more and more sickeningly toxic..
it is proven to be detrimental towards dental health, you can see discolourations on teeth sometimes, and thats basically because of fluoride, wonder if i can bring an interesting reaction from my dentist by asking about these professionally used words for fluoride damages

back to topic although, as mentioned my chemistry teacher told me he would get hold of a fluoride electrode, so if its really that expensive then i guess ill just go with that

but bfesser, what do you mean by 'one of THOSE nutters' ? i dont just drown myself in the infinite implies you can find throughout the world.. 'those' kinds are usually recognized by excessive caps lock use (:

i did althought expect it not to be alike making NH4Cl to get qualititive data on fluoride* content




~25 drops = 1mL @dH2O viscocity - STP
Truth is ever growing - but without context theres barely any such.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solubility_table
http://www.trimen.pl/witek/calculators/stezenia.html
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[*] posted on 27-9-2013 at 09:00


In the past the Zirconium-Alizarin Lake dye (aka Zirconium Alizarate) has been used to detect fluoride ions. Zirconium Alizarate Lake dye discolours in the presence of fluoride ions because of the formation of the extremely strong hexafluorozirconate complex: ZrF62-. As the fluoride complexes the zirconium, the Zr-Alizarin complex is destroyed, resulting in discolouration of the indicator solution.

Old as it may be, this method has been reported to be very sensitive, detecting even small amounts of CaF2 (Fluorite aka Fluorspar) in mineral mixes. A quantitative (colorimetric) version has also been described. There's plenty of literature on the Zr-alizarin complex on the tinkerwebs. Even Alizarin based 'fluoride paper' is still for sale.

[Edited on 27-9-2013 by blogfast25]




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Antiswat
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[*] posted on 28-9-2013 at 05:01


i will definately look into this, if its still for sale it will make it alot easier
what will make the quantitive test interesting is the facts about flouride




~25 drops = 1mL @dH2O viscocity - STP
Truth is ever growing - but without context theres barely any such.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solubility_table
http://www.trimen.pl/witek/calculators/stezenia.html
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[*] posted on 28-9-2013 at 06:21


Quote: Originally posted by bfesser  
Quote: Originally posted by Endimion17  
AFAIK it's basically an American thing and it was added in various forms throughout the history.
<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_fluoridation#Use_around_the_world" target="_blank">Water Fluoridation #Use around the world</a> <img src="../scipics/_wiki.png" />
<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluoridation_by_country" target="_blank">Fluoridation by country</a> <img src="../scipics/_wiki.png" />

[Edited on 26.9.13 by bfesser]


Well yeah, basically an American thing. Decent number of countries have been experimenting with such prophylaxis, but it has ceased in the favor of other methods. I was surprised to see Ireland still doing it.

I don't know, it's a thing that reminds me of widespread usage of N2O in dental offices in USA after the war. "Laughing gas and drilling teeth" has entered the global pop culture by American movies, but it has never ever been administered in my country because that's anaesthesia via respiratory system and you really should need an anaesthesiologist doing that. Here it's against the law to have one person administering such procedures, especially if it's dental office. We've always relied on local anaesthesia by novocaine or similar derivative and there's always a technitian in the room, plus there's medical emergency equipment in case someone falls into a state of shock. Administering any gas to people is serious business and is done using modern anaesthetics in rare cases. Patient has to be evaluated by a physician before it. EEG has to be taken, for example.



Quote: Originally posted by Antiswat  
yes thats certainly not something thats possible to make at home.. just getting lanthanum would be a quest for me..

Even if you get lanthanum (compounds), you'd never be able to make a proper electrode. Those things are expensive because they're tested and callibrated. Most of the money goes on that. The device itself is cheap, as almost any electrode out there.


Quote:
but again, without drawing too much of politics into it, the max amount i recall as having read yesterday as being 15 parts per billion, MAX.. so 1ppm is .. quite alot, most countries around the world rely on adding it to saltim not chemphobic for sure, i have burned flashpowder with fluoride additive in several times inside (great idea i know!!)but with all that i read about it, its getting more and more sickeningly toxic..it is proven to be detrimental towards dental health, you can see discolourations on teeth sometimes, and thats basically because of fluoride, wonder if i can bring an interesting reaction from my dentist by asking about these professionally used words for fluoride damages


1) Natural presence of fluoride anion in water differs. In my town it's slightly over 0.1 ppm, therefore slightly over 100 ppb. What you've read is crackpot web material.

2) Fluorides are never added to table salt. Iodides are. Probably one more lie you're read on the kookwebs.

3) It has not been proven to be detrimental towards dental health. In fact, it has been one of the factors responsible for lowering the incidence of dental cavities.
Teeth discolouration from fluorides is called dental fluorosis and requires large amounts of fluoride in the diet. There are localities throughout the world where the ground water is rich in fluorides, so the incidence of dental fluorosis is endemic. No dental fluorosis can come from small amounts found in fluoridated water and lifestyle where you care about your teeth and use fluoride toothpaste, mouthwash, etc., unless you eat your toothpaste and drink your mouthwash.

4) Your dentist's reaction will probably be "Oh no, not this crap again..."

The nutters bfesser mentions are part of the tinfoil hat bunch. The chemtrail-deathray-conspiracy dudes.
Judging by the disinformation you're picked up, it's probably their fault.

I'm not against adding fluorides to the tap water, but I'm not for it, either. It's useful, although not as much as normal dental hygiene and early childhood intensive dental prophylaxis (fluoride gel, maybe a NaF pill here and there, fluoride toothpaste).
It's more of a consent issue than a health issue.




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[*] posted on 6-10-2013 at 06:23


i really need to find that part from a book, or well seemingly it was from a book..
http://imgur.com/PzYFCnm
but i can only find this, must be on my school computer..?

anyhow.. HAARP does exist, aswell as FEMA does, its just simply undeniable facts..
im kinda shocked to know people wearing al foil hats do exist, but ive only heard about one (yes i know its pretty much a joke to say tinfoil hat)

chemtrails is not a joke.. its also a simple fact.. i cannot remember the exact compound, but its as little as 2.5% of the toxic fuel thats added, its chemically bonded with aluminium and makes the fuel very dangerous to handle.. of what i read it catches fire if its not kept from air all the time
i should of saved it.. basically a german pilot contacted some 'nutters' who then put it out more publically, stating he had been in the course since 1992 spraying germany..

but i still dont understand you.. how can you deny that theres chemtrails in the skies? its so.. obvious? you can just look up?

please dont just refuse to look at facts..




~25 drops = 1mL @dH2O viscocity - STP
Truth is ever growing - but without context theres barely any such.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solubility_table
http://www.trimen.pl/witek/calculators/stezenia.html
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[*] posted on 6-10-2013 at 06:45


"chemtrails is not a joke.. its also a simple fact."
No it isn't.
" i cannot remember the exact compound"
How helpful.
"but its as little as 2.5% of the toxic fuel thats added, its chemically bonded with aluminium "
In the combustion chamber it would oxidise to alumina which would completely screw the engine so we know that's not even possible, never mind right.

"of what i read it catches fire if its not kept from air all the time"
Read something other than conspiracy theories.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JP-4_(fuel)

"basically a german pilot contacted some 'nutters'... "
and you believed them...

"but i still dont understand you.. how can you deny that theres chemtrails in the skies? its so.. obvious? you can just look up?"
Yes, I can look up there and see condensation trails. And, if I watch them for a little while, I see them evaporate- because they are made of water.

Please don't clutter up the thread with any more of this. Start another thread if you want further evidence of why you are all sorts of wrong, but start it with how the whole of the aviation and petrochemical industry has been tricked into doing this, but there's never any mention of the people who produce these materials, nor of what you could add to jet fuel that wouldn't kill the engine but would still serve some sort of "purpose" after it has been burned to a crisp at 2000K?

Meanwhile. back on the subject, you can get an ion specific electrode and measure fluoride if you like, but what they usually add to the water supply is sodium fluorosilicate and I don't think that will be measured properly.
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[*] posted on 6-10-2013 at 09:37


Quote: Originally posted by Antiswat  
how can you deny that theres chemtrails in the skies? its so.. obvious? you can just look up?

please dont just refuse to look at facts..


You mean there are (water) VAPOUR trails. I suppose water mist counts as a chemical, so you're not wrong in that very specific sense. Even the modest car leaves a short-lived 'chemtrail', especially when it's damn cold...

What do you think clouds are made off?

Quote: Originally posted by unionised  

Meanwhile. back on the subject, you can get an ion specific electrode and measure fluoride if you like, but what they usually add to the water supply is sodium fluorosilicate and I don't think that will be measured properly.


Fluorosilicate is indeed a complex (albeit not a very strong one), so the free [F-] concentration must be much lower than the nominal fluoride concentration. Perhaps a treatment with ammonia would bind up the Si as silica gel, freeing the F-?

The old Zirconium Alizarate method should detect fluoride as hexafluorosilicate because the hexafluorozirconaye complex is much stronger.

[Edited on 6-10-2013 by blogfast25]




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[*] posted on 7-10-2013 at 21:48


idk how i should say i dont wanna discuss such stuff next time, clearly not by saying that i dont want to discuss it.. lol

anyways the bit i couldnt find

http://imgur.com/GNWFBwb

if you search up some of these lines anywhere on google you will find alot of links leading to this.. not saying i understand much of this, but i understand that this is not a good thing for any human..

on chemtrails

''Persistent Trails were not observed before 1998 (date varies)''

http://contrailscience.com/chemtrails-the-best-evidence/

i must say i havent seen anything about chemtrails where i live, but i have seen evidence from many other places, including the UK, holland, germany and ofcourse US
not to rush it too much i do recall to have read on that specific link (correct me if wrong) that the government of the US admitted to have used chemtrails..

on the engine part, yes that sounds scientifically logic about the alumina.. great question.. whenever i have the opportunity i will ask it




~25 drops = 1mL @dH2O viscocity - STP
Truth is ever growing - but without context theres barely any such.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solubility_table
http://www.trimen.pl/witek/calculators/stezenia.html
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[*] posted on 8-10-2013 at 03:02


Quote: Originally posted by Antiswat  

if you search up some of these lines anywhere on google you will find alot of links leading to this.. not saying i understand much of this, but i understand that this is not a good thing for any human..


If you google search for 'Nibiru', 'Planet X' and 'shape shifting reptillians' you'll finds loads of 'information' too (the only bit that might be credible is that GW Bush is a shape shifter ;-) ) That proves nothing whatsoever. None of the 'chemtrail science' is even remotely peer reviewed.

Chemtrails are just tinfoil hat stuff. Rense.com etc. Nonsense.




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[*] posted on 8-10-2013 at 06:51


Enough of this. <strong>Antiswat</strong>, if you want to talk about pseudoscientific bullshit and spread disinformation and outright lies, do it on YouTube like all the other intellectually deficient nutters. By the way, your idiotic screenshot fails to mention that lead and arsenic are cumulative toxins, whereas fluoride is not.



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[*] posted on 9-10-2013 at 00:47


''the effects of it you may ask, i will leave that out as it comes around opinions..'' -26-09-2013, Antiswat.
RIP non opinion based thread




~25 drops = 1mL @dH2O viscocity - STP
Truth is ever growing - but without context theres barely any such.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solubility_table
http://www.trimen.pl/witek/calculators/stezenia.html
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