Theoretic
National Hazard
Posts: 776
Registered: 17-6-2003
Location: London, the Land of Sun, Summer and Snow
Member Is Offline
Mood: eating the souls of dust mites
|
|
The holy-grail rocket fuel oxidizer
I once seen this (by Organikum):
"es, I remember a thread that I started at The Forum a while back, "Holy Grail Oxidizer"? That included instructions on how to prepare
[NF4+][ClO4-]. This was promptly dismissed by nbk2000, who then gave me a lesson on the basic fundamentals of chemistry. *sarcastic tone of voice*
"Chemistry isn't just 1+1. Quit talking out of your ass". Perhaps sometime soon I shall repost that, here."
That was two years ago.  Now I decide to make the topic that nearly didn't
get created. This topic is about the most powerful (oxidizing power for weight) oxidizer you can think of, for use in rocket fuel. NF4ClO4 is one
candidate. I have two candidates: peroxygen difluoride O2F2 and peroxynitryl ozonide NO3O3 (PONO). The PONO would be made through HNO3 + H2O2 =>
HNO4, HNO4 + SO3 => NO3HSO4, NO3HSO4 + heat => (NO3)2S2O7, 3O2 + electric discharge => 2O3, 4NaOH + 4O3 => 4NaO3 + 2H2O + O2, (NO3)2S2O7 +
2NaO3 => 2NO3O3 + Na2S2O7.
|
|
|
Jome
Hazard to Others
Posts: 154
Registered: 10-6-2004
Location: Soutwest sweden
Member Is Offline
Mood: desiccated
|
|
Are you sure that the ion NF4(+) exists? I'd think a positive nitrogen-fluoride ion if it exists would be more like HNF3..but I've never
heard of it and it sounds....weird.
As do NaO3, I've only heard of NaO2, sodium superoxide.
I'd go for N2O4, it is used today in rocketry. Fluorine is a strong oxidiser, but it requires a cetain kind of fluels to be efficient.
|
|
|
JohnWW
International Hazard
Posts: 2849
Registered: 27-7-2004
Location: New Zealand
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
The NF4+ ion is isoelectronic with CF4 and BF4-. However, it is less stable than these two latter species, and is more difficult to obtain, as it
involves inducing NF3 to lose an electron and accept a F atom. It resembles the nitronium ion, NO2+, which exists only in combination as a salt of the
strongest oxy-acids, e.g. perchlorate, and nitrate as solid N2O5. In fact, [NO2]+[ClO4]- is easier to come by than the NF4+ species.
I have also heard of a ClF6+ ion being obtained, but it would not be easy as it similarly requires ClF5 to lose an electron and accept a F atom.
John W.
|
|
|
MadHatter
International Hazard
Posts: 1332
Registered: 9-7-2004
Location: Maine
Member Is Offline
Mood: Enjoying retirement
|
|
Oxidizer
Depends on the fuel being burned. I'll go with NH4ClO4 as the most powerful, practical,
rocket fuel oxidizer. NASA's NH4ClO4 / Al / binder used in the shuttle's solids is probably
still the most versatile.
From opening of NCIS New Orleans - It goes a BOOM ! BOOM ! BOOM ! MUHAHAHAHAHAHAHA !
|
|
|
BromicAcid
International Hazard
Posts: 3227
Registered: 13-7-2003
Location: Wisconsin
Member Is Offline
Mood: Rock n' Roll
|
|
I've never heard of sodium ozide either but it probably exists, although I am sure of rubidium and cesium ozides. Their larger carion size may
well stabilize the ozide same as they can stabilize the triiodide anion.
|
|
|
chemoleo
Biochemicus Energeticus
Posts: 3005
Registered: 23-7-2003
Location: England Germany
Member Is Offline
Mood: crystalline
|
|
What is the actual electronic structure of the 'ozide' [O3]- ?? I can't figure a way to make this work...
Never Stop to Begin, and Never Begin to Stop...
Tolerance is good. But not with the intolerant! (Wilhelm Busch)
|
|
|
BromicAcid
International Hazard
Posts: 3227
Registered: 13-7-2003
Location: Wisconsin
Member Is Offline
Mood: Rock n' Roll
|
|
| Quote: | | Ozone forms compounds with the alkali and alkaline earth metals. These compounds contain the trioxide (1-), O3-. As we would expect from the
lattice stability arguments, it is the larger cations, such as cesium, that form the most stable trioxides. It has been shown that the trioxide (1-)
is also V-shaped, so the molecular orbital diagram should be similar to trioxygen itself. Thus, the additional electron in the anion should enter the
pi anti-bonding orbital. This arrangement would reduce the pi bonding to one-half, or one-fourth, per oxygen-oxygen bond. Experimental measurments
have shown this to be the case. The oxygen-oxygen bond length is 135 pm in the trioxide (-1) ion, slighlty longer then the 128 pm bond in trioxygen
itself. |
Quote from Descriptive Inorganic Chemistry 3rd editoin, Geoff Rayner-Canham; Tina Overton
It's odd to think that it's still V-shaped. Initially I thought that it would have instead formed something anologous to the azide anion,
an oxygen atom carrying the negative charge bonded to the oxygen atom central which has a bond and a partial bond to the terminal oxygen. However
being V-shaped this is not the case.
Edit: Forgot to cite my quote
[Edited on 10/4/2004 by BromicAcid]
|
|
|
Theoretic
National Hazard
Posts: 776
Registered: 17-6-2003
Location: London, the Land of Sun, Summer and Snow
Member Is Offline
Mood: eating the souls of dust mites
|
|
Potassium, sodium and tetramethylammonium ozonides have been obtained. The ozonide ion ia a radical ion, like the superoxide.
As for NH4ClO4 as the most powwrful oxidizer, consider this.
1) N2 + 3H2 => 2NH3 + energy RELEASED
2) Cl2O7 + H2O => 2HClO4 + energy RELEASED
3) NH3 + HClO4 => NH4ClO4 + energy RELEASED
All that energy released that could be released in the engine. Of course, you wouldn't use H2 and Cl2O7, but NO2ClO4/NF4ClO4 are MUCH better (and
reasonably stable also).
What are the nation's thoughts about the peroxonitryl ion?  Is there a
reason to prevent it from a reasonably stable existence?
|
|
|
tokat
Hazard to Self
Posts: 64
Registered: 1-6-2004
Location: 6feet south
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
PENTACHLOROBENZOIC ACID look like a high one.
http://www.orgsyn.org/orgsyn/prep.asp?prep=cv5p0890
|
|
|
chemoleo
Biochemicus Energeticus
Posts: 3005
Registered: 23-7-2003
Location: England Germany
Member Is Offline
Mood: crystalline
|
|
A high one of what?
Can you tell us why this is a 'holy grail oxidiser'?
I cant see why.
Never Stop to Begin, and Never Begin to Stop...
Tolerance is good. But not with the intolerant! (Wilhelm Busch)
|
|
|
MadHatter
International Hazard
Posts: 1332
Registered: 9-7-2004
Location: Maine
Member Is Offline
Mood: Enjoying retirement
|
|
Other oxidizers
Theoretic, I'm not doubting you on the other oxidizers mentioned.
I've never seen a synthesis on them. Quite frankly, this was the 1st
time I heard of them.
From opening of NCIS New Orleans - It goes a BOOM ! BOOM ! BOOM ! MUHAHAHAHAHAHAHA !
|
|
|
tokat
Hazard to Self
Posts: 64
Registered: 1-6-2004
Location: 6feet south
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
CO2.H.C6CL5 + H2O + heat -- CH3 +CO2 + C6(ring) + Cl5.
So whats wrong with the fomulas?
[Edited on 6-10-2004 by tokat]
|
|
|
AngelEyes
Hazard to Others
Posts: 187
Registered: 24-1-2003
Location: South of England
Member Is Offline
Mood: Better than it used to be.
|
|
Hmmm....I'm only a novice but:
--> CH<sub>3</sub> - what is this exactly?
C<sub>6</sub>(ring) - what is this? Sure as hell isn't benzene...could a ring of 6 Carbons with only double bonds between them even
exist?
Cl<sub>5</sub> - should be 5Cl (or even 2.5 Cl<sub>2</sub> I guess, though I am sure the reaction wouldn't go like you
wrote it.)
It (your pentachlorobenzoic acid) may be a chlorine donor but that is all - not the greatest oxidiser ever. I would wager most nitrates would beat
it...
|
|
|
chemoleo
Biochemicus Energeticus
Posts: 3005
Registered: 23-7-2003
Location: England Germany
Member Is Offline
Mood: crystalline
|
|
Tokat, we are looking for OXIDISERs, not for some highly chlorinated compounds.
Pentachlorobenzoic acid certainly isn't an oxidiser.
Never Stop to Begin, and Never Begin to Stop...
Tolerance is good. But not with the intolerant! (Wilhelm Busch)
|
|
|
tokat
Hazard to Self
Posts: 64
Registered: 1-6-2004
Location: 6feet south
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Sorry i thought oxidisers were oygen,clorine,floruine donors,i didn't learn it from chemstiry though.
"CH3 - what is this exactly?" Cann't remember what it is called but mix HCL with carbon to make it.
|
|
|
Jome
Hazard to Others
Posts: 154
Registered: 10-6-2004
Location: Soutwest sweden
Member Is Offline
Mood: desiccated
|
|
Tokat:
That kind of question probably belong in the "beginnings" section.
CH3- is a methyl group. It can't exist on it's own, it's always part of a molecule. You cannot make CH3 by adding HCl to carbon.
Oxidisers are indeed compounds with the ability to accept electrons. Things like sulfur and chlorine are oxidisers too, but weaker since they have
lower electronegativity and higher atomic weight than oxygen and fluorine.
In pyro / rocketry oxidisers normally contain oxygen as a part of a compound / or a salt with the ability to loose it's oxygen when temperature
rises.
Example:
6KNO3--->3K2O, 3KO2, 3N2 and 3O2.
2KClO3---heat--->2KCl+3O2
|
|
|
KonkreteRocketry
Hazard to Others
Posts: 165
Registered: 12-11-2012
Location: Dubai
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
NF4ClO4?
I heard this salt is not really dangerous or reactive.. but i havent found any melting / boiling points ever.
I saw the decomposition is NF4ClO4 + Heat = NF3 + FClO4
If enough heat is added, both compound will further decompose at not much above room temperature.
2NF3 = F2 + N2F4
2FClO4 = F2 + Cl2 + 2O2
N2F4 further decompose into 2F2 and N2.
so 2 NF4ClO4 = N2 + 4F2 + Cl2 + 2O2
wow.. Flourine and chlorine and oxygen being released !
|
|
|
blogfast25
International Hazard
Posts: 10562
Registered: 3-2-2008
Location: Neverland
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Do you have any credible references for the existence/synthesis of this compound?
This cannot be analogous to an ammonium salt, as it would require an electron acceptor to yield a cation, like in the case of 'straight' ammonium:
NH3 + H+ === > NH4+
An F+ ion, assuming you could create it, would immediately try and capture an entire electron pair to form F-, which would be
almost infinitely more stable than F+ due to the extreme electronegativity of fluorine.
'On paper' something like NF3H+ could be imagined but I've no idea if it has been synthesised. It sounds unlikely because the
electron pull of the three F atoms would partially charge the N atom, making it far less attractive for protons.
[Edited on 9-5-2013 by blogfast25]
|
|
|
KonkreteRocketry
Hazard to Others
Posts: 165
Registered: 12-11-2012
Location: Dubai
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25  |
Do you have any credible references for the existence/synthesis of this compound?
This cannot be analogous to an ammonium salt, as it would require an electron acceptor to yield a cation, like in the case of 'straight' ammonium:
NH3 + H+ === > NH4+
An F+ ion, assuming you could create it, would immediately try and capture an entire electron pair to form F-, which would be
almost infinitely more stable than F+ due to the extreme electronegativity of fluorine.
'On paper' something like NF3H+ could be imagined but I've no idea if it has been synthesised. It sounds unlikely because the
electron pull of the three F atoms would partially charge the N atom, making it far less attractive for protons.
[Edited on 9-5-2013 by blogfast25] |
oh, NF4ClO4 is not NF4, its kind of NF3FOClO3
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluorine_perchlorate
Structure of NF4ClO4 shall be like.. ignore dots
.....F.................O
F- N - F - O - Cl = O
.....F.................O
[Edited on 9-5-2013 by KonkreteRocketry]
[Edited on 9-5-2013 by KonkreteRocketry]
[Edited on 9-5-2013 by KonkreteRocketry]
|
|
|
Acidum
Harmless
Posts: 39
Registered: 2-5-2013
Location: Serbia
Member Is Offline
Mood: Sublimed
|
|
Fluorine creating two bonds?! omg 
During all these years in chemistry I never saw anything like this...
Sure, NF3 and fluorine perchlorate both exists, but this...
I hope You understand that his formula equals to statement that by mixing water with table salt you get NaH2ClO, or something similar...
...and then I disappeared in the mist...
|
|
|
woelen
Super Administrator
Posts: 7976
Registered: 20-8-2005
Location: Netherlands
Member Is Offline
Mood: interested
|
|
The ion NF4(+) does exist.
http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/ic50052a020
The salt NF4ClO4 also seems to exist. In 1980 it was prepared by K.O. Christe. This person has done research on many REALLY obscure and special
chemicals. Just google his name and you will find interesting reads about very weird compounds.
http://oai.dtic.mil/oai/oai?verb=getRecord&metadataPrefi...
[Edited on 10-5-13 by woelen]
|
|
|
blogfast25
International Hazard
Posts: 10562
Registered: 3-2-2008
Location: Neverland
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Yes, I saw it woelen. That one surprised me a lot.
|
|
|
![[*]](images/xpblue/default_icon.gif){kind=icon}
