Sciencemadness Discussion Board
Not logged in [Login - Register]
Go To Bottom

Printable Version  
 Pages:  1    3  ..  5
Author: Subject: Isolation of Boron from Borax (Sodium Tetraborate)
bismuthate
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 803
Registered: 28-9-2013
Location: the island of stability
Member Is Offline

Mood: self reacting

[*] posted on 28-9-2013 at 13:46
Isolation of Boron from Borax (Sodium Tetraborate)


would a solution of borax + chlorine make boron oxide because that would be an easy route to elemental boron

<!-- bfesser_edit_tag -->[<a href="u2u.php?action=send&username=bfesser">bfesser</a>: replaced subject "boron" to reflect topic of merged threads]

[Edited on 14.10.13 by bfesser]




I'm not a liar, I'm just an enthusiastic celebrant of opposite day.
I post pictures of chemistry on instagram as bismuthate. http://iconosquare.com/bismuthate
or this viewer if you don't have an instagram (it sucks though) http://web.stagram.com/n/bismuthate
View user's profile Visit user's homepage View All Posts By User
12AX7
Post Harlot
*****




Posts: 4803
Registered: 8-3-2005
Location: oscillating
Member Is Offline

Mood: informative

[*] posted on 29-9-2013 at 03:02


Use HCl, not chlorine.

B(OH)3 will precipitate. It has to be fused to make boron oxide.

Tim




Seven Transistor Labs LLC http://seventransistorlabs.com/
Electronic Design, from Concept to Layout.
Need engineering assistance? Drop me a message!
View user's profile Visit user's homepage View All Posts By User This user has MSN Messenger
bismuthate
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 803
Registered: 28-9-2013
Location: the island of stability
Member Is Offline

Mood: self reacting

[*] posted on 29-9-2013 at 03:23


i'm not allowed to use heat to decompose it so i was wondering can it react with chlorine?




I'm not a liar, I'm just an enthusiastic celebrant of opposite day.
I post pictures of chemistry on instagram as bismuthate. http://iconosquare.com/bismuthate
or this viewer if you don't have an instagram (it sucks though) http://web.stagram.com/n/bismuthate
View user's profile Visit user's homepage View All Posts By User
blogfast25
Thought-provoking Teacher
*****




Posts: 10334
Registered: 3-2-2008
Location: Old Blighty
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 29-9-2013 at 05:57


Quote: Originally posted by bismuthate  
i'm not allowed to use heat to decompose it so i was wondering can it react with chlorine?


Reacting it with chlorine won't do zilch.

Borax is a (complex) salt of a very weak acid, i.e. boric acid (B(OH)3). When a stronger acid (like HCl) is added to a solution of borax the stronger acid displaces the weaker one. Simply put:

Borax (solution) + HCl (solution) === > B(OH)3 (oily flakes) + NaCl (solution)

There are plenty recipes for this, use the search facility.

Then filter off the boric acid, wash and dry it. Then, on strong heating, it loses water and forms a glassy mass of B2O3:

2 B(OH)3(s) ==(heat)== > B2O3(s) + 3 H2O(g)

This can be reacted with Al or Mg powder to produce elemental boron. But obtaining pure boron this way isn't easy. See Brauer (library) for a procedure.

If you're not allowed to use heat, then forget about chemistry: heat is what drives much of it!


[Edited on 29-9-2013 by blogfast25]




View user's profile Visit user's homepage View All Posts By User
bismuthate
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 803
Registered: 28-9-2013
Location: the island of stability
Member Is Offline

Mood: self reacting

[*] posted on 29-9-2013 at 06:42


well i can use heat for short times via alcohol burner and reactions but i can't use a large fire or a stove which is used to decompose boric acid. is there any other way to make it like a way to make BCl3 or something along the lines of that? (probably not i can't think of a way)



I'm not a liar, I'm just an enthusiastic celebrant of opposite day.
I post pictures of chemistry on instagram as bismuthate. http://iconosquare.com/bismuthate
or this viewer if you don't have an instagram (it sucks though) http://web.stagram.com/n/bismuthate
View user's profile Visit user's homepage View All Posts By User
blogfast25
Thought-provoking Teacher
*****




Posts: 10334
Registered: 3-2-2008
Location: Old Blighty
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 29-9-2013 at 07:48


An alcohol burner might just be hot enough to slowly dehydrate boric acid. But I'm not sure what temperature is needed for FULL dehydration (obtaining anhydrous B2O3) Smart use of your burner and correct choice of crucible (copper for instance) could do wonders here.

BCl3 from borax is a hat trick and you'd need to go via B2O3 anyway. It's extremely reactive towards water...

[Edited on 29-9-2013 by blogfast25]




View user's profile Visit user's homepage View All Posts By User
bismuthate
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 803
Registered: 28-9-2013
Location: the island of stability
Member Is Offline

Mood: self reacting

[*] posted on 29-9-2013 at 07:55


i have a idea! i can put the crucible of borax on a Al/MnO2 thermite mixture which will run for quite a while. will that work?



I'm not a liar, I'm just an enthusiastic celebrant of opposite day.
I post pictures of chemistry on instagram as bismuthate. http://iconosquare.com/bismuthate
or this viewer if you don't have an instagram (it sucks though) http://web.stagram.com/n/bismuthate
View user's profile Visit user's homepage View All Posts By User
blogfast25
Thought-provoking Teacher
*****




Posts: 10334
Registered: 3-2-2008
Location: Old Blighty
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 29-9-2013 at 08:46


Quote: Originally posted by bismuthate  
i have a idea! i can put the crucible of borax on a Al/MnO2 thermite mixture which will run for quite a while. will that work?


NO! Thermite mixtures, ESPECIALLY MnO2 thermites, burn far too hot and far too short.

Try this. Use your spirit burner on a 'high' setting (longish wick), with methanol if possible.

Now you'll need some kind of a 'crucible'. A piece of copper sheet would be ideal but if you haven't got any some mild steel sheet cut from a steel pop can for instance, could work. Fashion it into a concave surface, some 3 x 3 cm maximum. Load a quarter of a teaspoon of the dried boric acid onto it. Now try and somehow clamp this 'crucible' at the right height above the burner, so you don't have to hold it (which would quickly become tiresome) and light up the burner. Or try a disused teaspoon (thin metal if possible) as a crucible...

Carefully observe the boric acid: it will probably melt and should start giving off steam. Whether you'll reach high enough temperature to fully dehydrate it to B2O3 I don't know. It will in any case take time, at least 30 min on full heat.

On p 57 of 'The Golden Book of Chemistry', which you can download here:

http://chemistry.about.com/b/2012/10/01/download-the-golden-...

... is described an experiment that claims to prepare boric oxide from boric acid, with a teaspoon and a spirit burner. But it's not clear to me whether actual B2O3 or rather one of several intermediates (HBO2 or H2B4O7) is obtained. It's largely a question of heating time, I'm guessing.



[Edited on 29-9-2013 by blogfast25]




View user's profile Visit user's homepage View All Posts By User
bismuthate
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 803
Registered: 28-9-2013
Location: the island of stability
Member Is Offline

Mood: self reacting

[*] posted on 29-9-2013 at 12:34


That would work, but could I silver instead of copper for better conductivity?



I'm not a liar, I'm just an enthusiastic celebrant of opposite day.
I post pictures of chemistry on instagram as bismuthate. http://iconosquare.com/bismuthate
or this viewer if you don't have an instagram (it sucks though) http://web.stagram.com/n/bismuthate
View user's profile Visit user's homepage View All Posts By User
elementcollector1
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 2592
Registered: 28-12-2011
Location: The Known Universe
Member Is Offline

Mood: Molten

[*] posted on 29-9-2013 at 12:41


Quote: Originally posted by bismuthate  
That would work, but could I silver instead of copper for better conductivity?


Why would you want better conductivity?
If you mean heat conductivity, I think you'd want less, not more: More heat conductivity will mean more heat is dispersed to the atmosphere.




Elements Collected:52/87
Latest Acquired: Cl
Next in Line: Ge
View user's profile View All Posts By User
papaya
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 558
Registered: 4-4-2013
Member Is Offline

Mood: reactive

[*] posted on 29-9-2013 at 12:48


Look at this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3IAv6Ohjuh8
It may be that one of the products is boron (I'm not sure).
View user's profile View All Posts By User
bismuthate
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 803
Registered: 28-9-2013
Location: the island of stability
Member Is Offline

Mood: self reacting

[*] posted on 29-9-2013 at 14:43


What was that? (I only speak English, sorry)
Also, could i burn a pile of Mg ribon to provide heat?




I'm not a liar, I'm just an enthusiastic celebrant of opposite day.
I post pictures of chemistry on instagram as bismuthate. http://iconosquare.com/bismuthate
or this viewer if you don't have an instagram (it sucks though) http://web.stagram.com/n/bismuthate
View user's profile Visit user's homepage View All Posts By User
violet sin
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 1222
Registered: 2-9-2012
Location: :14,15,9,20,1,3,15,12
Member Is Offline

Mood: doom

[*] posted on 29-9-2013 at 15:22


I don't know that every one has these available, but the little stainless steel condiment cups are great for stuff like this. I went to a near by wall-mart and got 2 four packs of em for 97cents each. practically disposable at that cost.

http://www.walmart.com/ip/Mainstays-Condiment-Cups/14964954

work great for me
View user's profile View All Posts By User
bismuthate
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 803
Registered: 28-9-2013
Location: the island of stability
Member Is Offline

Mood: self reacting

[*] posted on 29-9-2013 at 15:32


Thanks for the tip. Also, kind of off topic but i went to Stop and Shop and i saw 100ml pyrex custard cups and they would make great beakers for small experiments.



I'm not a liar, I'm just an enthusiastic celebrant of opposite day.
I post pictures of chemistry on instagram as bismuthate. http://iconosquare.com/bismuthate
or this viewer if you don't have an instagram (it sucks though) http://web.stagram.com/n/bismuthate
View user's profile Visit user's homepage View All Posts By User
bfesser
Resident Wikipedian
*****




Posts: 2114
Registered: 29-1-2008
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 29-9-2013 at 16:22


Beware that new "Pyrex" cookware isn't borosilicate, and therefore prone to thermal shock induced shattering.



View user's profile View All Posts By User
Tdep
National Hazard
****




Posts: 459
Registered: 31-1-2013
Location: Fixed Lasers
Member Is Offline

Mood: *laser noises*

[*] posted on 29-9-2013 at 16:35


Is there any distinguishing way to tell if glassware is borosilicate or not? Does it have to be labelled as such or is your only clue when it shatters under heat shock?
View user's profile View All Posts By User
bismuthate
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 803
Registered: 28-9-2013
Location: the island of stability
Member Is Offline

Mood: self reacting

[*] posted on 29-9-2013 at 16:36


i wasn't suggesting usin pyrex for this reaction, i was just mentioning somthing i saw at the store. sorry for the confusion.



I'm not a liar, I'm just an enthusiastic celebrant of opposite day.
I post pictures of chemistry on instagram as bismuthate. http://iconosquare.com/bismuthate
or this viewer if you don't have an instagram (it sucks though) http://web.stagram.com/n/bismuthate
View user's profile Visit user's homepage View All Posts By User
bfesser
Resident Wikipedian
*****




Posts: 2114
Registered: 29-1-2008
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 29-9-2013 at 18:15


The cookware issue was discussed a few years ago in <a href="viewthread.php?tid=12170">several topics</a>.

[Edited on 30.9.13 by bfesser]




View user's profile View All Posts By User
papaya
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 558
Registered: 4-4-2013
Member Is Offline

Mood: reactive

[*] posted on 29-9-2013 at 20:26


Quote: Originally posted by bismuthate  
What was that? (I only speak English, sorry)
Also, could i burn a pile of Mg ribon to provide heat?


It is a mixture of borax + magnalum, a non-standard thermite, I suppose the boron (or some borides) may be on of the products (another is sodium as you can see it afterburning in video).
View user's profile View All Posts By User
bismuthate
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 803
Registered: 28-9-2013
Location: the island of stability
Member Is Offline

Mood: self reacting

[*] posted on 30-9-2013 at 03:37


thats interesting if i mix borides with HCl i get boran which i can burn to get B2O3 right?



I'm not a liar, I'm just an enthusiastic celebrant of opposite day.
I post pictures of chemistry on instagram as bismuthate. http://iconosquare.com/bismuthate
or this viewer if you don't have an instagram (it sucks though) http://web.stagram.com/n/bismuthate
View user's profile Visit user's homepage View All Posts By User
blogfast25
Thought-provoking Teacher
*****




Posts: 10334
Registered: 3-2-2008
Location: Old Blighty
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 30-9-2013 at 04:53


Quote: Originally posted by elementcollector1  
Why would you want better conductivity?
If you mean heat conductivity, I think you'd want less, not more: More heat conductivity will mean more heat is dispersed to the atmosphere.


No. The highest temperature of a material in a rudimentary crucible (all other things being equal) is obtained with the highest heat conductivity crucible material and the thinnest crucible wall thickness. That's basic heat transfer science. There's no getting around that.

[Edited on 30-9-2013 by blogfast25]




View user's profile Visit user's homepage View All Posts By User
papaya
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 558
Registered: 4-4-2013
Member Is Offline

Mood: reactive

[*] posted on 30-9-2013 at 06:56


Quote: Originally posted by bismuthate  
thats interesting if i mix borides with HCl i get boran which i can burn to get B2O3 right?

In theory yes I think - see videos on the same channel - with phosphate instead of borax he gets something that when water(or acid) is added releases a gas immediately catching fire - phosphine. (oh - easy way to P2O5 :P )
View user's profile View All Posts By User
bismuthate
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 803
Registered: 28-9-2013
Location: the island of stability
Member Is Offline

Mood: self reacting

[*] posted on 30-9-2013 at 11:20


that sounds awesome shame i don't have any phosphates:(
would this work with silicates? just out of curiosity.




I'm not a liar, I'm just an enthusiastic celebrant of opposite day.
I post pictures of chemistry on instagram as bismuthate. http://iconosquare.com/bismuthate
or this viewer if you don't have an instagram (it sucks though) http://web.stagram.com/n/bismuthate
View user's profile Visit user's homepage View All Posts By User
papaya
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 558
Registered: 4-4-2013
Member Is Offline

Mood: reactive

[*] posted on 30-9-2013 at 11:31


search for SiO2 + Al + S thermite. Btw. there's an entire discipline in material synthesis (mostly ceramics) called SHS
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-propagating_high-temperat...
View user's profile View All Posts By User
bismuthate
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 803
Registered: 28-9-2013
Location: the island of stability
Member Is Offline

Mood: self reacting

[*] posted on 30-9-2013 at 11:38


actualy i was talking about silicates mixed with aluminum. (I have already seen many videos about sand thermite) hovever i found that link very interesting. maybe i'll use one of those reactions soon.

[Edited on 30-9-2013 by bismuthate]




I'm not a liar, I'm just an enthusiastic celebrant of opposite day.
I post pictures of chemistry on instagram as bismuthate. http://iconosquare.com/bismuthate
or this viewer if you don't have an instagram (it sucks though) http://web.stagram.com/n/bismuthate
View user's profile Visit user's homepage View All Posts By User
 Pages:  1    3  ..  5

  Go To Top