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Napolean Dynamite
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I made a glass jar with two holes in the lid, glued to make a seal. This is a reaction vessel that is the gas generator. In one tube I slowly squirt a
liquid with syringe to make the reaction go, in the other tube comes the gaseous products (CO2, Acetylene etc.) this tube leads through the gas
dehydrating chamber, a cylindrical plastic thing roughly 2 inches diameter full of powdered ammonium nitrate, the gas slowly passes through the AN and
then through the rubber tube on the other side which connects to a teflon tube (sealed) and this sits in the nitric acid which would ideally be in a
graduated cylinder. I tried nothing more than baking soda and vinegar to produce a fair amount of CO2 to pass through over the course of about 15
minutes, it worked well but nitric acid was still yellow.
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hyfalcon
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They also sell DampRid which is pure calcium chloride at most home stores.
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Bert
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Quote: Originally posted by Napolean Dynamite  | | this tube leads through the gas dehydrating chamber, a cylindrical plastic thing roughly 2 inches diameter full of powdered ammonium nitrate, the gas
slowly passes through the AN and then through the rubber tube on the other side |
Ammonium nitrate only will take air down to 40%+ relative humidity at STP, AFAIK?
Why not use cheap & "no questions asked" Silica gel? Easy to regenerate in the oven-
If I had to improvise from Walmart, oven baked Epsom salts would be my choices before ammonium nitrate as gas dryer.
Rapopart’s Rules for critical commentary:
1. Attempt to re-express your target’s position so clearly, vividly and fairly that your target says: “Thanks, I wish I’d thought of putting it
that way.”
2. List any points of agreement (especially if they are not matters of general or widespread agreement).
3. Mention anything you have learned from your target.
4. Only then are you permitted to say so much as a word of rebuttal or criticism.
Anatol Rapoport was a Russian-born American mathematical psychologist (1911-2007).
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Napolean Dynamite
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Yes probably true Bert. I didn't know AN doesn't suck moisture out of air less than 40% rel. humidity, so I suppose living in a dry climate, the
hygroscopic properties of AN are much less significant.
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TheAlchemistPirate
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So would I be able to pass the air slowly through a horizontal glass tube filled with dehydrated Epsom salts? I will need this for agitating reactions
btw so I cant use CO2. I am planning on getting a used fish tank bubbler for restoring oxygen to water, then connecting this to a drying chamber with
silicone tubing. The air will pass through the drying chamber, then with more silicone tubing connect to a short Teflon tube with small holes drilled
in. I need to get a drying chamber efficient enough to maintain a decent amount of pressure in the setup while still sufficiently drying the air
however.
EDIT: lack of info
[Edited on 30-4-2014 by TheAlchemistPirate]
"Is this even science anymore?!"
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Napolean Dynamite
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I found a plastic syringe that had diameter about 2 inches this worked well for slowly passing air through the dehydrating material, I used AN but now
realize AN won't dry air completely.
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Trinitrophenol
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Hello I have tryed to search using google for azides (sodium/lead azide etc...) compatibility with stainless steel but with no luck.
So i came here to ask this question to someone who might have read a bit more literature than me 
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PHILOU Zrealone
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| Quote: Originally posted by TheAlchemistPirate | | Has anyone here built an air bubbler with a drying system? I am planning to purify my nitric acid by removing the NOx contamination by bubbling dry
air through it with urea being added, and I cant figure out how to dry the air being pushed through the system without spending a fortune. I am
planning on connecting a fish tank bubbler to a Teflon tube(with holes poked into it) with silicone tubing, and have seen that the air needs to be dry
so it wont contaminate/dilute with water the nitric acid or anything else I need to agitate. I have seen where people say to cycle the air through a
container with an air dehydrating chemical, but wouldn't this just push the chemical through the system and contaminate whatever I am agitating? I
have done many searches on google and cant find an answer to any of these questions, I am planning on using this bubbler in the future for agitating
nitroglycerin and other syntheses that might be dangerous to mix by hand. |
This link drying column show you how it is usually made.
The flow of gas passes into a washing/dehydrating bottle (down to the bottom where it bubbles up...the upper part of the recipient has an exhaust that
goes sometimes into a second washing/dehydrating bottle or a guard bottle (in the case some liquid is splashed from the first bottle into the
exhaust).
It works with liquid concentrated H2SO4, but also with solid dehydratants like Ba(ClO4)2 (dryerite), CaO (chalk - Edited thanks to Bert  : quick lime), CaCl2 (usual humidity absorbant for home), ...
[Edited on 2-5-2014 by PHILOU Zrealone]
PH Z (PHILOU Zrealone)
"Physic is all what never works; Chemistry is all what stinks and explodes!"-"Life that deadly disease, sexually transmitted."(W.Allen)
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chemrox
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guanidine nitrate from guanidine.X
It would seem a simple conversion to make guanidine nitrate from guanidine carbonate or HCl via treatment with base and extraction followed by nitric
acid. Did I miss something about the base or can this be done so easily? (The guanidine thread seemed completely irrelevant to this question).
"When you let the dumbasses vote you end up with populism followed by autocracy and getting back is a bitch." Plato (sort of)
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plante1999
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Simply add an excess of nitric acid to guanidine carbonate in about two time its weight in water, and let it dry, it will yield a crystalline solid.
Are you planning on making new youtube videos soon?
I never asked for this.
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Bert
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Threads Merged
5-5-2014 at 09:54 |
TheAlchemistPirate
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I was recently considering making ETN, and have been planning what chemicals to get, the exact procedure, etc. and I saw that it required ethanol or
methanol as a solvent to recrystallize it(acetone is too strong). As I don't have access to ethanol and methanol apparently makes lesser quality ETN
crystals, I didn't know what to do. I was wondering if ethyl rubbing alcohol would work, as it is just ethanol diluted with water, and ETN isn't
soluble in water. If that is true, why don't people use ethyl rubbing alcohol instead? I know that it is used as a solvent in other
recrystallizations, and it evaporates, like other solvents for related synthesis. I have searched google and the forums but haven't found anything as
ETN doesn't seem to be very popular.
"Is this even science anymore?!"
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Napolean Dynamite
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Denatured alcohol is Ethanol, sold at home depot.
Here is my question: In general, how loud/far away could a 1kg Ammonal (90:10) charge be heard assuming flat ground?. I have experimented only with
high RE explosives in 20g amounts, you'll barely hear it from over 500 yards away.
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Lerdan
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| Quote: Originally posted by Bert | | Quote: Originally posted by Lerdan | Is it safe to make cast Ammonium Nitrate/ Aluminium powder ?
I'm hesitating to make it, because of safety concerns.
If I melt the AN and take the pot from the heating source and mix it with the Al powder at around 80° C (Randomly chosen, I have no idea what the
lowest temperature is to still be able to mix it) is there a risk of ignition or detonation ?
Of course, I mean , if I don't throw a burning match or cigarette in it. |
Why exactly do you WANT to mix powdered Aluminum into molten ammonium nitrate? If you have a reference for a use requiring this, please provide it?
If both the Aluminum and the oxidizer are pure, and temperatures are below decomposition temperature of the nitrate, it won't go off in your face.
Experimental ammonium nitrate/Aluminum compositions
But even a low level of contamination with a number of other chemicals can change that. Chlorine, chlorides, Sulfer, Zinc or Chromium compounds, urea
and probably several other things I don't know of make for lowered decomposition temperature, increased reactivity of the Aluminum by destroying the
Aluminum's oxide coating or BOTH. That could be exciting.
How pure are your chemicals?
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Thanks for your reply, Bert.
I want to make a charge to det.
I extract my AN from fertilizer. The bag says it has 27% nitrogen in it :
13.5 % ammonia nitrogen
13.5 % nitrate nitrogen
I think these 2 are delivered by the AN ?
And it has 4% magnesium oxide in it too (dissolvable in mineral acid)
There is a lot of brown stuff in my filter, that should be calcium (it's in the brand name of the fertilizer)
I dissolve everything in water and filter the liquid out, which I then would use to make cast AN/AL (That would save me a LOT of time and efforts).
The AL should be pure.
So I can safely mix them at +-80°C ?
The guy here did it too : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RNoV8Tr38Wg
Also ; recently I tried to det a mixture of
- 12.5 % H202 (50% concentration)
- 15 % Al powder
- rest AN
My 7 gr minibooster of ETN/AN/Al did not manage to det it.
Should I use a bigger booster or does somebody have a better idea for my ratios ? Keep in mind, this mixture was already liquid-like, so it should not
be more liquid (the AL would sink) Also : when I added the H2O2 to the AN/AL, it bubbled, and the mixture was a bit warm for hours) : is the reaction
safe ?
[Edited on 6-5-2014 by Lerdan]
[Edited on 6-5-2014 by Lerdan]
[Edited on 6-5-2014 by Lerdan]
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VladimirLem
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| Quote: Originally posted by Lerdan |
I want to make a charge to det.
I extract my AN from fertilizer. The bag says it has 27% nitrogen in it :
13.5 % ammonia nitrogen
13.5 % nitrate nitrogen
I think these 2 are delivered by the AN ?
Also ; recently I tried to det a mixture of
- 12.5 % H202 (50% concentration)
- 15 % Al powder
- rest AN
My 7 gr minibooster of ETN/AN/Al did not manage to det it.
Should I use a bigger booster or does somebody have a better idea for my ratios ? Keep in mind, this mixture was already liquid-like, so it should not
be more liquid (the AL would sink) Also : when I added the H2O2 to the AN/AL, it bubbled, and the mixture was a bit warm for hours) : is the reaction
safe ?
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sounds like AN...
why are you wasting that many AL?
A composition of 90 (AN) - 8 (C) - 2 (AL) works fine with some strong Det-Cap (at 0.8-0.9g/cm3 bulk density)
50% H2O2 is strong but around above 70% its becomes an explosive by itself...maybe you made the AN "wet" with it and more difficult to detonate....and
again, why wasting that good H2O2 ?
even with H2O2 you will not get a even moderate strong explosive (ok, if it was pure H2O2, then yes^^)...and by the way...the higher the density of
you compound is the less easy tro ignite it is...
just take the well know compositions like ANFO, ANNM or Ammonal and you will have much fun without wasting chems...a booster (20-50g) is (especially
at ANFO, a strong booster!) always good
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thebean
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When people use the acronym GAA, are they referring to glacial acetic acid?
"You need a little bit of insanity to do great things."
-Henry Rollins
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thesmug
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@Thebean yes. Or at least almost always.
Good eyes
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Napolean Dynamite
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Can an explosive that is cap sensitive like ANNM in 500g amounts undergo full detonation in massive amounts (100kg) with centre initiation with only
blasting cap just as with the small charge or is the shockwave absorbed throughout the material in cases of large charge.
Also could a 1kg ammonal detonation (90:10) be heard from 5 miles away on flat ground no trees?
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DubaiAmateurRocketry
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Worst strategies in making new EM?
Since azoles especially tetrazoles have been considered green and energetic, many authors has made derivatives of it and published their results, of
course I appreciate their effort, however some strategies are really not helping.
I have seen many authors adding a methyl group into tetrazole's derivatives, ending up with a list of compounds having VoD around 6000 to 8000 along
with long synthesis procedures. Since TATB, RDX and TNT already have similar performance and low sensitivity, these compounds are not really needed.
I personally think adding methyl group is actually the worst idea in terms of performance. Methyl group contribute least density compared to others
such as NH2, NHNH2, NO2, NHNO2, C(NO2)3, etc. You see some tetrazole compound's density drop from a high 1.8 to a 1.5 after adding a methyl group.
furthermore, It is also very oxygen negative and hydrogen bonds from methyl group are almost negligible, which barely help with the sensitivity. These
oxygen-deprived compound will produce toxic gases like CO, and HCN upon deflagration, and still categorized under ''green EM'' which is little ironic.
[Edited on 6-5-2014 by DubaiAmateurRocketry]
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Metacelsus
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It depends on whether you still have eardrums left after your kewl-ness.
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Napolean Dynamite
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Huh? my family has some property on a ranch in Wyoming we go to and I'd like to test one ammonal charge around 1kg, it's about seven miles from a
town.
I have perfectly working ears also If you mean to say "cool" yes I think HE detonations are cool.
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PHILOU Zrealone
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| Quote: Originally posted by DubaiAmateurRocketry | Since azoles especially tetrazoles have been considered green and energetic, many authors has made derivatives of it and published their results, of
course I appreciate their effort, however some strategies are really not helping.
I have seen many authors adding a methyl group into tetrazole's derivatives, ending up with a list of compounds having VoD around 6000 to 8000 along
with long synthesis procedures. Since TATB, RDX and TNT already have similar performance and low sensitivity, these compounds are not really needed.
I personally think adding methyl group is actually the worst idea in terms of performance. Methyl group contribute least density compared to others
such as NH2, NHNH2, NO2, NHNO2, C(NO2)3, etc. You see some tetrazole compound's density drop from a high 1.8 to a 1.5 after adding a methyl group.
furthermore, It is also very oxygen negative and hydrogen bonds from methyl group are almost negligible, which barely help with the sensitivity. These
oxygen-deprived compound will produce toxic gases like CO, and HCN upon deflagration, and still categorized under ''green EM'' which is little ironic.
[Edited on 6-5-2014 by DubaiAmateurRocketry] |
True that methyl group is not the best with regards to density increase. But to be greener and less toxic; they should go for ethyl dérivatives
(bio-ethanol)
Note that:
-Sometimes it is good to have other different molecules for pure accademic study and populate a database of related molecules.
-Methyl group may enhance stability of a molecule that would be to unstable for practical use without it.
See nitramine (H2NH-NO2), methylnitramine and dimethylnitramine.
See hydrazoic acid HN3 and methyl azide.
-In the case of highly positive OB, a methyl group will allow to bring some extra fuel and hydrogen (what is important for propellant properties).
[Edited on 8-5-2014 by PHILOU Zrealone]
PH Z (PHILOU Zrealone)
"Physic is all what never works; Chemistry is all what stinks and explodes!"-"Life that deadly disease, sexually transmitted."(W.Allen)
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Manifest
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Where can I find a working safe synthesis of ETN using potassium nitrate?
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Bert
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"Safe" is not something anyone else but you can determine.
However, Google on:
etn synthesis potassium nitrate
And the exact thing you're interested in showed up, about 4th relevant thread listed on a site you're a member of...
Someone posted that Google worked better than the forum search recently?
| Quote: Originally posted by Manifest | | Quote: Originally posted by bfesser | <strong>Mesa</strong>, <strong>Variscite </strong>, <strong>Oscilllator</strong>: Don't forget that the forum has
a <img src="./images/xpblue/top_search.gif" /> <a href="search.php">Search</a> function.
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The forum search function is well, crap.
It doesn't find much and when you search google you tend to find what you're looking for.
use "experiment you're looking for here site:sciencemadness.org" |
[Edited on 8-5-2014 by Bert]
Rapopart’s Rules for critical commentary:
1. Attempt to re-express your target’s position so clearly, vividly and fairly that your target says: “Thanks, I wish I’d thought of putting it
that way.”
2. List any points of agreement (especially if they are not matters of general or widespread agreement).
3. Mention anything you have learned from your target.
4. Only then are you permitted to say so much as a word of rebuttal or criticism.
Anatol Rapoport was a Russian-born American mathematical psychologist (1911-2007).
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Manifest
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Okay Bert! Sorry for being lazy, my laptop is getting repaired at the minute and I am stuck using a slow phone. It is the thread titled ETN synth lab,
right?
Do you reckon 91% sulfuric acid will work in nitrating the ethyrionol without much loss?
I'm also worried about the potassium sulfate formed, will that not clump up the mixture?
[Edited on 8-5-2014 by Manifest]
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Turner
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If using potassium nitrate use excess sulfuric keep reaction at 25C I have done Erythtirol nitration at 45C with anhydrous nitric and sulfuric acid no
runaway but only 60% yield
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