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PHILOU Zrealone
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[*] posted on 17-6-2014 at 10:26


Quote: Originally posted by Motherload  
H3PO4 cannot be distilled past 85% .... Anymore heating and it turns into meta phosphoric acid HPO3 which is a solid.


HPO3 (or (-O-P(O)(OH)-)n) is related to P2O5 because it contains anhydric link P-O-P between each P atom.




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PHILOU Zrealone
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[*] posted on 17-6-2014 at 10:32


Quote: Originally posted by arkoma  
Is the specific gravity of liquids affected by altitude?

edit---oops, wrong quick questions thread!! (I did UTFSE, but didn't realize there were two quick questions threads, energetics ain't my thing)

[Edited on 6-14-2014 by arkoma]

Yes depression (altitude) induces an expension of the liquids; so specific gravity will be less than at level "0". Some volatile liquids near the sea may even turn into gases in altitude.
Water boils arround 80°C instead of 100°C up there.




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[*] posted on 17-6-2014 at 11:37


It is the first time that i hear that the density of liquid change with pressure...the volume of liquid will increase with increasing temperature (so density drops). water is an exception because it has a negative thermal expansion coefficient, it will contract upon heating...what will change with altitude is the boiling temperature of the liquid because the ambient pressure decreases with altitude. However, the bulk density will remain unchanged.

These claims PHILOU(density of liquid drops with decreasing the pressure) need to be backed up with a new theorem...

Dany.


[Edited on 17-6-2014 by Dany]
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[*] posted on 17-6-2014 at 12:25


http://rmbel.info/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/water.density.j...

http://www1.lsbu.ac.uk/water/explan2.html

[Edited on 17-6-2014 by Rosco Bodine]
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PHILOU Zrealone
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[*] posted on 18-6-2014 at 04:38


Quote: Originally posted by Dany  
It is the first time that i hear that the density of liquid change with pressure...the volume of liquid will increase with increasing temperature (so density drops). water is an exception because it has a negative thermal expansion coefficient, it will contract upon heating...what will change with altitude is the boiling temperature of the liquid because the ambient pressure decreases with altitude. However, the bulk density will remain unchanged.

These claims PHILOU(density of liquid drops with decreasing the pressure) need to be backed up with a new theorem...

Dany.


[Edited on 17-6-2014 by Dany]

Dany,
I don't know what is your education level, experience, work or fields of specialities... but I think your studies are far away and maybe you didn't got physical chemistry and thermodynamic?
Maybe you are not familiar with the isothermic p(V) curves the diagram of gas-liquid near the critical point explaining the perfect gas laws and the variation with real gas showing distillation plates (during liquefaction of gas, the pressure remains constant). I'll put you a picture.

Water has also a positive thermal expansion coefficient...it only display a singularity between 4 and 0°C!At ambiant pressure, between 4 and over 4000°C it dillates; between -270 and 0°C also ice dillates!

If liquids were uncompressible, why would sound travel through?

[Edited on 18-6-2014 by PHILOU Zrealone]




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Dany
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[*] posted on 18-6-2014 at 05:33


PHILOU my friend, i didn't tell you that liquids are incompressible. liquids are compressible, even solid are compressible but to a much lesser extent. The propagation of sound in liquid compresses and decompress successively the liquid, however the compression is infinitesimally small to make a density variation in liquid (or solids). However, under high dynamic shock wave liquid and solid will be compressed to a smaller volume. this is obvious from the unreacted Hugoniot diagram (the P-V diagram). This phenomena is observed under several GPa of dynamic pressure. For example liquid TNT has a density of ρ= 1.473 g/cm3 at ambient pressure. A shock wave entering the liquid with an amplitude of P=10.855 GPa (approx. 109 kbar) will compress the liquid TNT to a density of 2.259 g/cm3 [1]. of course the P-V diagram for the liquid TNT is called the unreacted liquid TNT, so no detonation is observed (the density of 2.259 g/cm3 do not correspond to the density at the Chapman-Jouguet point because as is already told, it is the unreacted Hugoniot). Your example of density change between sea level and the mountain peak is meaningless. Btw, you are telling me that at ambient pressure the water will dilate between 4 and over 4000°C, the question: is water still a liquid at these temperature :)

Reference

[1] LASL SHOCK HUGONIOT DATA, LOS ALAMOS SERIES ON DYNAMIC MATERIAL PROPERTIES.


[Edited on 18-6-2014 by Dany]
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[*] posted on 18-6-2014 at 13:59


Quick question:

Eloctrocell bumping 5volts, max amps with MgCl2 electrolyte. Mg(ClO3)2 expected product? NO Mg(OH)2 evident.




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[*] posted on 18-6-2014 at 15:16



Try this

http://oxidizing.typhoonguitars.com/chlorate/mag_chlorate.ht...

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[*] posted on 18-6-2014 at 15:43


Thanx, jock88! I came up on a bunch of Mg Chloride yesterday (ice melt) and just HATE not seeing my cell do SOMETHING LOL.



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[*] posted on 26-6-2014 at 15:16
Testing of EM's


Hi

I started with EM's again, but have moved away from no mans land and has therefore gained a new problem. Sound! How can I best test the EM's in a good scientific manner and keep the volume as low as possible. It will be a little expensive if I should ruin a bucket for each detonator I'll test. I do not have any water / lake within acceptable distance apart from the sea. It is too much traffic on the sea in my area so it is excluded. Testing of larger charges such as shape charge, the sound will become a big problem.

What can I do?
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[*] posted on 26-6-2014 at 16:10


Do your tests in heavy thunder/rain storm.
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[*] posted on 27-6-2014 at 01:37


If th have an area where you want to test maybe you could look into hiring a post hole borer machine and do testing in there. These machines can dig nice deep perfectly round holes and a few of them placed close to eachother and linked up by a shovel would make an ideal test site for smaller charges muffling the doing to a level it may not even be noticed. The problem of cave ins and retrieving of your target could pose problems though.. tests for detonators could be done in a smaller hole filled with sand-saving your buckets. Otherwise the storms/heavy rain is the only other option. Or pick a day for all your tests and drive out to where nobody will hear and blast away.



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[*] posted on 1-7-2014 at 08:07
How Crystal Surface Area and Geometry affect Explosive Qualities


To what extent will the recrystallization processes affect explosive materials such as PETN. I have conducted various experiments, altering variables such as the water to acetone/PETN ratio,as well as temperature and the rate at which water is introduced to the solution.

For example, by lowering the temperature of the acetone/PETN solution and the water to just above 0 C prior to the introduction of water to the solution, I have found crystals to be formed with very high surface area.

I am curious as to what other processes you guys have used to recrystallize energetic materials, and what effect the crystal shape, surface area, and geometry had on any tests you conducted.




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[*] posted on 2-7-2014 at 20:42


Yes, I tried searching but still have a quick question. Unlike say organic peroxides, if someone had some well washed and totally acid-free and recrystallized ETN, it there any risk with it sitting on its own in a sub-gram quantity(say 750mg tops)? Would maybe having it wet be better(I assume most likely)?
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[*] posted on 3-7-2014 at 04:02
ETN synth.


Hi again ..
I wonder if there is a synthesis of ETN without sulfuric acid? I have phosphorus pentoxide ( P2O5 ), and wonder if it can be used as a substitute for SA.?

Thanks for the suggestions on the testing of EM's, it appears that it is best to build a mini bunker which is about 1.5x1.5x1.5 meters into a hillside some distance away from buildings and trails.
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[*] posted on 3-7-2014 at 09:07


Quote: Originally posted by Stortulling  
Hi again ..
I wonder if there is a synthesis of ETN without sulfuric acid? I have phosphorus pentoxide ( P2O5 ), and wonder if it can be used as a substitute for SA.?


it will, im pretty sure:)

but be careful...i have no expierince with P2O5 but it seems to be very aggressive to water (like contained in HNO3)...
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[*] posted on 3-7-2014 at 13:48


Quote: Originally posted by VladimirLem  
Quote: Originally posted by Stortulling  
Hi again ..
I wonder if there is a synthesis of ETN without sulfuric acid? I have phosphorus pentoxide ( P2O5 ), and wonder if it can be used as a substitute for SA.?


it will, im pretty sure:)

but be careful...i have no expierince with P2O5 but it seems to be very aggressive to water (like contained in HNO3)...


That was my "guess", but I have not done any synth. myselfe with P2O5 yet. I guess that it might be possible with Ac2O allso, or am i wrong? I've not read up on that kind of synth either, but from what i understand it should be possible.. I haven't found any synth on ETN this way, probably due to that H2SO4 is the "simple" way.. But since it is hard to get SA where i live ( if you don't count used battery acid) other synth's are interesting to look at. Can someone point me in the right direction please. (Refs or literature)

Thanks

[Edited on 4-7-2014 by Stortulling]
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[*] posted on 3-7-2014 at 20:54


It seems like such a waste of P2O5. It's impossible for me to buy it here in Canada.
I cannot see any reasons why it wouldn't work.
Someone here used 70% HNO3 and P2O5 for RDX synth.

[Edited on 4-7-2014 by Motherload]




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PHILOU Zrealone
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[*] posted on 4-7-2014 at 08:24


In principe erythritol ca be halogenated to 1,2,3,4-tetrachlorobutane or 1,2,3,4-tetrabromobutane.
The later compounds can be reacted with excess saturated AgNO3 in aceton or methanol (not ethanol because of the risk of formation of silver fulminate).
This test is usually used for the identification of organo-halogenoalcanes.
Primary alcohols reacts faster than secondary ones!

HOCH2-CHOH-CHOH-CH2OH + 4 HX ==ZnX2/heat==> XCH2-CHX-CHX-CH2X + 4H2O
(X being Cl or Br)
XCH2-CHX-CHX-CH2X + 4 AgONO2 --> O2NOCH2-CHONO2-CHONO2-CH2ONO2 + 4 AgX (s)
The AgX is a precipitate that can be decomposed by light for recovery of the silver and recycling with HNO3; the halogen can also be recovered.
2 AgX(s) -light-> 2 Ag(s) + X2 (g)

The adaptation of this procedure to iodo compounds is not possible because geminal iodocompounds tends to spontaneously deiodinate and produce alcenes...
ICH2-CHI-CH2I ==> ICH2-CH=CH2 + I2




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[*] posted on 5-7-2014 at 08:57
Is PETN recrystallization mandatory?


Hello world,
Is PETN recrystallization a mandatory step?
The batch will be used in a couple of days after preparation.

Thanks in advance
Aldo
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[*] posted on 5-7-2014 at 10:01


Quote: Originally posted by aldofad  
Hello world,
Is PETN recrystallization a mandatory step?
The batch will be used in a couple of days after preparation.

Thanks in advance
Aldo


if you want to use it the next days there will be no problem if it is neutral (acid washed away)...i had some small unrecr. amount for years with no visible negative reaction to the product (~18C, dark storage)
if you want a high quality product (for shaped charge or so) it may be better to recrystilize it...
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[*] posted on 5-7-2014 at 13:32


Thanks for replying with such a good answer
Aldo
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[*] posted on 5-7-2014 at 13:48


The recrystallization step is pretty important imoh. It gives a nice clean product of a slightly higher density and will eliminate any undue risk to yourself just in case you do need to store it. Its not entirely needed but it is good practice. I think that if you went to the trouble of making PETN why not finish it properly. It won't take long and the time spent is worth it.you may not even notice a different between the re and non recrystallized products power wise but the handling and loading properties do differ a bit. I have just started using PETN and it is a brilliant explosive which deserves that extra bit of attention



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[*] posted on 5-7-2014 at 16:18


Quote: Originally posted by NeonPulse  
The recrystallization step is pretty important imoh. It gives a nice clean product of a slightly higher density and will eliminate any undue risk to yourself just in case you do need to store it. Its not entirely needed but it is good practice. I think that if you went to the trouble of making PETN why not finish it properly. It won't take long and the time spent is worth it.you may not even notice a different between the re and non recrystallized products power wise but the handling and loading properties do differ a bit. I have just started using PETN and it is a brilliant explosive which deserves that extra bit of attention

I'm now waiting for PETN to dry after nitration and washing. Thanks for your opinion. I'll go through recrystallization so.
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[*] posted on 5-7-2014 at 20:16


If you used mixed acids then I would definitely recrystalize.
My recrystalized product has been odour free for almost 2 years now along with my ETN.




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