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Bert
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[*] posted on 20-9-2015 at 17:22


Looking at the Wikipedia article (lazy!), I see a density of 3.327 g/cc for Cesium perchlorate vs. 2.52 for KClO4. Also an even lower water solubility than KClO4 AND decomposition temperature of 250 C, compared to the 400 C and up for KClO4...

Have not yet looked at the reactivity and prices and so shattered my illusions.

A recently linked article in Axt's OTC pentryl article mentions the use of a percentage of KClO4 added to boosters made with pentryl as further enhancing pentryl's (already rather good) power, but with no specific mention of BRISSANCE. Let's daydream a bit further, perhaps there's an application for such a mix in base charges and small boosters?

(Edit)
Pentryl has a listed density of 1.68g/cc, and an Oxygen balance of -46%. An admixture of Barium or Cesium perchlorate at over 3G/cc density should give a decent increase in density, possibly boosting VOD/brissance and help oxidize some of that leftover Carbon for more heat output ... Where will the "sweet spot" in performance as a booster fall in any trade off between total power output and potentially increased VOD/brissance? Enquiring minds want to know!


[Edited on 21-9-2015 by Bert]

[Edited on 23-9-2015 by Bert]




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[*] posted on 20-9-2015 at 18:23


Agreed there. The precursors are easy to get and very little skill or knowledge is needed to make acetone peroxide the synthesis is widely published and common on many how to sites and the yields are good so why not? Also the younger more inexperienced really have no idea on just how bad an accident with this stuff could be. younger people do take more risks. See that video of the Indian kid pressing 1g of peroxide in foil with his bare hands? If he really knew what he was doing he would not be doing that.



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[*] posted on 22-9-2015 at 18:26


I accidentally posted twice the exact same post by resendjng the same info but I can't seem to delete it.
so can a mod pls remove it?




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[*] posted on 23-9-2015 at 06:09


Hello,
I would like to test this receipt :
Do you think it would explode (with a small booster and confinement from a steel pipe) ?
AN-Gel :

Ammonium Nitrate 250g 55%
Potassium Nitrate 45g 10%
Aluminum powder 68g 15%
Sugar 23g 5%
Guar Gum 11g 2.5%
Borax 4.5g 1%
Water 68g 15%

Can water be substituted with H2O2 (50% solution)? If so, is the resulting explosion more powerful ? And can the gel be stored for a long time (with H2O2) ? What is the function of the Borax powder and KNO3 ?




I would also like to test a mixture I read about here :
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=3214&a...
H2O2 - glycerine
Since I can buy H202 (50% solution) cheaply , this is interesting. In the attachment of user jpsmith123 : http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/files.php?pid=59003&a... ; I read this line in the table : H202 : 34% ; glycerine : 15% ; water 51 %.
But does 'do' mean that it actually exploded ?
If so : would 85 % of H2O2 (50% solution) and 15% glycerine be a good cap sensitive explosive ?



[Edited on 23-9-2015 by Goshunkar]
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[*] posted on 24-9-2015 at 07:19
Where can I get this igniter (or make it)


Hey guys,
Have you ever seen these igniters?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWcAjHuS1L4

Any idea where I can get them or how they're made? It looks like a coil of wire that is pulled through another piece of metal. What chemicals are used?

I would prefer to buy them pre-made but I would could make them as well.

Thanks!
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[*] posted on 24-9-2015 at 07:26


A friction sensitive pyrogen mixed with adhesive and applied to a potion of the string. This segment is pulled through a tight, abrasive opening, which ignights it, and pulled it into a small charge of a hot burning or spark throwing pyro mix. The flames amd sparks are directed away from the string puller. If I were to guess.

Similar, in a way, to those novelty poppers that have a pull strings on either side.

[Edited on 24-9-2015 by Bot0nist]

You could probably rig it with match heads, and the striker portions of the box. A slow burning black powder or rcandy could work as the fire starter mix.

[Edited on 24-9-2015 by Bot0nist]




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[*] posted on 24-9-2015 at 07:38


Firefox sells kits for making this type of igniter. Paint ball players use such to ignite smoke devices, among other things.

http://www.firefox-fx.com/kits.htm

This general type of pull wire/pull string igniter has been in common use since Potassium chlorate became available to pyrotechnists- Used to ignite everything from USA civil war era muzzle loading cannons to Vietcong hand grenades. A look at the Tenney Davis COPAE book in the forum library may disclose mixtures.




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[*] posted on 24-9-2015 at 13:49


Quote: Originally posted by Bert  
The origin of this question is some comments in Naoum on use of high density oxidizers for dopes in low NG wartime mining explosives (dynamite dope formulations): For example, the higher VOD resulting from density change when substituting KClO4 for NH3NO3 offsetting the lowered VOD otherwise caused by a very low NG content.

Off the top of your head-

What are the highest density choices available among inorganic perchlorates, nitrates or chlorates, qualifying as being of a reasonably non hygroscopic nature... That is, compounds that one could leave a sample of sitting exposed to air for several days at STP and around 90% relative humidity, and not have it convert itself into a puddle!

Extra points for compounds that are reasonably stable in storage from -40 to at least 80C., and don't present a horrible handling problem due to toxicity, corrosive/reactive towards common engineering materials, etc.

Industrial choices of oxidizers in military and civil pyrotechnics typically being driven by OTHER considerations than density (such as economics), what if we think outside the box...

Google has not been my friend (so far) on this question.

(Edit)
My first thought was Barium nitrate and perchlorate at densities around 3.29 & 3.2, respectively. But a bit toxic-

[Edited on 19-9-2015 by Bert]


This question is a hard one!
NG is already over-oxygenated so adding oxydiser will make little use if the rest of the "dopes" is not a fuel.

Assuming it is a fuel, ideally it should be explosive, high density and with a negative OB...then adding an oxydiser will maybe enhance the explosive power or at least allow it to remain stable despite being lower at NG and explosive fuel.

This effect is seen with Ammatols (mixes of NH4NO3 and TNT), Baratols (mixes of Ba(NO3)2 and TNT), Sodatols (mixes of NaNO3 and TNT). The "inexpensive"/"cheap" oxydiser allows to get nearly the same explosive characteristics as plain TNT...the oxydisers increases the heat output by burning the fuel available of the negative OB part of the TNT.

The question is not easy because high density negative OB explosives like TATNB mixed with NH4ClO4 yield a mix that is beneficial to each other (synergic) and result in higher detonic performances than each explosive material appart/alone (near the 9500 m/s VOD for the mix).

But in the case of oxydisers with a metal (heavy), not only the ratio of the amount of oxygen weight vs the metal dead weight is important... for example Al(ClO4)3 would be better than Mg(ClO4)2 itself better than NaClO4; but it is not clear if the mass of the metal dead weight may have a detonic impact on VOD and brisance or if the benefit only comes from the added burnt fuel and overal energy output...normaly it should be detrimental to the exhaust gas speed (what is enhanced by light gases).

A simple comparison between several stoechiometric mixes may give a precise answer to this... vs TATNB or TNT and vs each other...
TATNB or TNT / LiClO4
TATNB or TNT / NaClO4
TATNB or TNT / KClO4
TATNB or TNT / NH4ClO4
TATNB or TNT / Mg(ClO4)2
TATNB or TNT / Ca(ClO4)2
TATNB or TNT / Sr(ClO4)2
TATNB or TNT / Ba(ClO4)2
TATNB or TNT / Al(ClO4)3
TATNB or TNT / Ni(ClO4)2
TATNB or TNT / Ni(ClO4)3

TATNB or TNT / LiIO4
TATNB or TNT / NaIO4
TATNB or TNT / KIO4
TATNB or TNT / NH4IO4
TATNB or TNT / Mg(IO4)2
TATNB or TNT / Ca(IO4)2
TATNB or TNT / Sr(IO4)2
TATNB or TNT / Ba(IO4)2
TATNB or TNT / Al(IO4)3
TATNB or TNT / Ni(IO4)2
TATNB or TNT / Ni(IO4)3

This should prove the effect or not:
-of heavier metal (Li vs Na vs K ; Mg vs Ca vs Sr vs Ba)
-of heavier non-metal (Cl vs I)
-of higher valence metals, thus increasing OB of the oxydiser
(Na vs Mg vs Al; Al vs Ni(III); Ni(II) vs Ni(III))
(stoechiometry would thus need proportionally less oxydiser (by weight) vs explosive fuel)

Quote: Originally posted by Bert  
Looking at the Wikipedia article (lazy!), I see a density of 3.327 g/cc for Cesium perchlorate vs. 2.52 for KClO4. Also an even lower water solubility than KClO4 AND decomposition temperature of 250 C, compared to the 400 C and up for KClO4...

Have not yet looked at the reactivity and prices and so shattered my illusions.

A recently linked article in Axt's OTC pentryl article mentions the use of a percentage of KClO4 added to boosters made with pentryl as further enhancing pentryl's (already rather good) power, but with no specific mention of BRISSANCE. Let's daydream a bit further, perhaps there's an application for such a mix in base charges and small boosters?

(Edit)
Pentryl has a listed density of 1.68g/cc, and an Oxygen balance of -46%. An admixture of Barium or Cesium perchlorate at over 3G/cc density should give a decent increase in density, possibly boosting VOD/brissance and help oxidize some of that leftover Carbon for more heat output ... Where will the "sweet spot" in performance as a booster fall in any trade off between total power output and potentially increased VOD/brissance? Enquiring minds want to know!


[Edited on 21-9-2015 by Bert]

[Edited on 23-9-2015 by Bert]

It is evident that if the oxydiser is already a high detonating explosive, this will kick even more the VOD and brisance.
The following are interesting cases of oxydisers because the VOD and density are high but some of them display slighly reduced performances when used alone because strongly overoxygenated...

So probably worth a try:
TATNB or TNT / N2H5NO3 (already VOD 8900 m/s alone)
TATNB or TNT / N2H5ClO4 (already VOD 7500 m/s alone)
TATNB or TNT / N2H5IO4 (unstable?)
TATNB or TNT / N2H5C(NO2)3
TATNB or TNT / HONH2.HNO3 (already VOD 8000 m/s alone)
TATNB or TNT / HONH2.HClO4
TATNB or TNT / HONH2.HIO4 (if stable)
TATNB or TNT / HONH2.HC(NO2)3

Of course any dense nitroaromatic HE would do the job if displaying a negative OB...the denser the best...
TNB, TeNN, Tetryl, Pentryl, poly-trinitrophenylene, tri-methylnitramino-trinitrobenzene (hextryl), trimethylol-trinitrobenzene trinitrate, ...
...


[Edited on 25-9-2015 by PHILOU Zrealone]




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[*] posted on 25-9-2015 at 04:55


Quote: Originally posted by Goshunkar  
Hello,
I would like to test this receipt :
...

No answers for me ? :(
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[*] posted on 25-9-2015 at 05:38


Tested someone ammonium trichromate (NH4) 2Cr3O10. Which is formed by crystallization of ammonium dichromate nitric acid spec. weight 1.39 g / cm3 (Siewert, 1862). This compound explodes at 190 ° C, giving rise to NO and NO2.

[Edited on 25-9-2015 by specialactivitieSK]
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[*] posted on 25-9-2015 at 08:42


Quote: Originally posted by Goshunkar  
Hello,
I would like to test this receipt :
Do you think it would explode (with a small booster and confinement from a steel pipe) ?
AN-Gel :

Ammonium Nitrate 250g 55%
Potassium Nitrate 45g 10%
Aluminum powder 68g 15%
Sugar 23g 5%
Guar Gum 11g 2.5%
Borax 4.5g 1%
Water 68g 15%

Can water be substituted with H2O2 (50% solution)? If so, is the resulting explosion more powerful ? And can the gel be stored for a long time (with H2O2) ? What is the function of the Borax powder and KNO3 ?




I would also like to test a mixture I read about here :
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=3214&a...
H2O2 - glycerine
Since I can buy H202 (50% solution) cheaply , this is interesting. In the attachment of user jpsmith123 : http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/files.php?pid=59003&a... ; I read this line in the table : H202 : 34% ; glycerine : 15% ; water 51 %.
But does 'do' mean that it actually exploded ?
If so : would 85 % of H2O2 (50% solution) and 15% glycerine be a good cap sensitive explosive ?


1°) Glad you want to test... don't forget to report succes
And maybe tell us where you did find the receipe...
2°) NH4NO3 water gels need good detonator, confinement and also very critical...the pipe diameter...too small will lead to no detonation --> critical diameter of detonation.
3°) H2O2 will work, but formula must certainly be adapted because of OB...more oxydiser --> more fuel needed.
H2O2 will help getting micro-bubbles what sensitize the NH4NO3 explosive gels...but it will also decrease storage stability...especially in steel pipe (iron --> rust --> not compatible with H2O2).
4°) Borax and KNO3 are probably present for OB and for viscosity of the water gel.
5°) If the patent says so, then you must be in the sensitive triangle area (H2O2/H2O/Glycerol) (the stoechimetric line is probably the more sensitive one)...The "do" in table 1 does indeed mean detonation/explosion.




PH Z (PHILOU Zrealone)

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[*] posted on 26-9-2015 at 11:29


Quote: Originally posted by PHILOU Zrealone  
1°) Glad you want to test... don't forget to report succes
And maybe tell us where you did find the receipe...
2°) NH4NO3 water gels need good detonator, confinement and also very critical...the pipe diameter...too small will lead to no detonation --> critical diameter of detonation.
3°) H2O2 will work, but formula must certainly be adapted because of OB...more oxydiser --> more fuel needed.
H2O2 will help getting micro-bubbles what sensitize the NH4NO3 explosive gels...but it will also decrease storage stability...especially in steel pipe (iron --> rust --> not compatible with H2O2).
4°) Borax and KNO3 are probably present for OB and for viscosity of the water gel.
5°) If the patent says so, then you must be in the sensitive triangle area (H2O2/H2O/Glycerol) (the stoechimetric line is probably the more sensitive one)...The "do" in table 1 does indeed mean detonation/explosion.

Thanks for your answer.
I got the first receipt from a dubious website : http://cdn.preterhuman.net/texts/wars_and_weapons/other/Impr...
The pipe has a diameter of 5.1 cm. Wide enough ?

I will report the result.

I guess the H202-glycerine explosive has to be confined too ?
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[*] posted on 26-9-2015 at 11:38


@Goshunkar,
You thus forgot the Aluminium powder inside your mix...
In your link: Aluminum powder 68g 15%

Diameter 5.1cm should be enough...especially with H2O2...H2O2/Al/gel was tested by Axt in plastic bag.




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[*] posted on 26-9-2015 at 11:44


Nope, I didn't forget the Al powder ...

Are you referring to http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=3214 ?
He used another composition
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[*] posted on 28-9-2015 at 01:39


Quote: Originally posted by Goshunkar  
Nope, I didn't forget the Al powder ...

Are you referring to http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=3214 ?
He used another composition

Yes...as written earlier H2O2/Al/gel ... thus looked pretty close to what you intend to do with H2O2 since Al was listed in the reference source receipt you provided...but not in the receipt you wrote :(

BTW: Al would boost things up and sensitize the mix even more...




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[*] posted on 29-9-2015 at 09:37


So, I have what might be one of the dumbest questions I've asked in a while...... Does anyone know of any synthesis or inquiry related to the nitrites (not nitro, NO groups) of toluene or other similar compounds (xylene, benzene) ? The closest I could find was a paper written in the late sixties in london that was using it to figure out the stereospecificity of xylene.

As an aside, I was wondering if anyone had any solid information on the properties of nitroxylene (20ml of Xylene). I recently made some using the commercial grade stuff (at least, I think) through solution of sulfuric acid(50ml)/KNO3(15g, way way too much). After I added the xylene it stratified rather quickly, even when stirred. I then poured it into a separatory funnel. It stayed separated into layers and I drained off the acid into some water very slowly (what I think is nitroxylene stuck towards the top), and was left with a milky white fluid which I poured off into an amber sample jar and refrigerated.
I am very interested in seeing if I can find anyone who has sample to compare to or some other information on the topic. Even if it's a very wimpy explosive I'm still somewhat interested just because of how incredibly easy it was to make this small-ish sample. :)

I've exhausted my ability to find information on either at this point, I think.
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[*] posted on 30-9-2015 at 05:47


There is a compuond called nitrosobenzene, C6H5NO.
Also, trinitroxylene is a waxy, solid material.What you made might be a mix of mononitroxylene and xylene.For the nitration of xylene you need fuming HNO3.
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[*] posted on 30-9-2015 at 18:35


So after my second attempt I had a successful DDNP synthesis. I did a quick seach but wanted a more definite answer as to what is the best method of storage. I don't plan on storing it for an extremely long time and no more than a few grams. Just wanted to be as safe as possible. Thanks.
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[*] posted on 2-10-2015 at 22:07


I figured here was the best place for my question, so here goes.
I have almost zero interest in EM and certainly no experience. However, if aga can do organic, then I can do something combustable.

My four year old son has developed an interest in "rocket ships". I figured a quick and simple rocket in the back yard might be just the thing. Preferably something that "squirts fire".
What I would like is a relatively safe and straightforward design and a suitable propellant mix. I have plenty of potassium nitrate that I can use.

Suggestions?
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[*] posted on 3-10-2015 at 00:13


And another pyro is born...

http://www.wichitabuggywhip.com/fireworks/

Do you want to fly, (rocket engine) or just have the device emit a jet of sparks (gerb).

Either way, a black powder type mix would be a suitable fuel. Perhaps with an additive for spark production, such as 80 mesh charcoal, steel powder or fine Titanium sponge.

Basic device construction is the same, a tube filled with fuel. The rocket usually has a central hollow core to give a larger burning surface, the gerb usually just burns from the end and so has a longer burn time.

http://www.wichitabuggywhip.com/fireworks/rockets/rockets.ht...






image.jpg - 17kB

image.jpg - 20kB

image.jpg - 18kB

[Edited on 3-10-2015 by Bert]




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2. List any points of agreement (especially if they are not matters of general or widespread agreement).
3. Mention anything you have learned from your target.
4. Only then are you permitted to say so much as a word of rebuttal or criticism.

Anatol Rapoport was a Russian-born American mathematical psychologist (1911-2007).

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[*] posted on 3-10-2015 at 00:50


Quote: Originally posted by j_sum1  
I figured here was the best place for my question, so here goes.
I have almost zero interest in EM and certainly no experience. However, if aga can do organic, then I can do something combustable.

My four year old son has developed an interest in "rocket ships". I figured a quick and simple rocket in the back yard might be just the thing. Preferably something that "squirts fire".
What I would like is a relatively safe and straightforward design and a suitable propellant mix. I have plenty of potassium nitrate that I can use.

Suggestions?



Try this but be careful : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=12fR9neVnS8
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[*] posted on 3-10-2015 at 01:03


j_sum1, do you plan on actually launching a rocket or just doing a static test in the dirt for fun? I whipped up something one afternoon about a year ago using a kitchen wrap tube capped at one end with duct tape, potassium nitrate, sucrose, a little glucose and a pinch of iron oxide. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x5b_uScBVJk

The footage isn’t great and I picked an overcast, rainy day to do it (was worried about fires) but you get the idea.
It was heaps of fun and I'll do it again sometime.

if you want I’ll dig up the mix ratios I used.

edit: fixed link, also, the chuffing was from the electric igniter not being pushed far enough into the core
DSC_0532.jpg - 1.7MB

[Edited on 3-10-2015 by NedsHead]
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[*] posted on 3-10-2015 at 02:23


Thanks for the answers Bert and Ned. Since posting, I have taken a look at a couple of YT vids. This one impressed: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=12fR9neVnS8

I was thinking more along the lines of sugar rather than black powder since I do not currently have any charcoal available. Something added to give a bit more of a visible flame would be good. I do have Ti powder and Al powder if that helps. I have copper nitrate too which I assume would give a green colour.

I really don't want anything too powerful. I will probably scale down pretty small. I live in a suburban area and only need a lift of 15-20 metres maximum.

And to answer your question, NedsHead, a rocket ship has to fly. But according to the boss, "It's not supposed to go to space because that's too far."

[edit]
missed your post, ecos. You linked the very same one vid that I found.

[Edited on 3-10-2015 by j_sum1]
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[*] posted on 3-10-2015 at 04:09


sounds like the boss has things under control j_sum1, adding Al powder will give the rocket ship a nice glittering tail. I wouldn’t recommend using PVC pipe as a motor casing because if the core over pressurizes and you have a CATO you will have shards of PVC flying everywhere. melt casting might be easier than all that tamping

melt casting
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyPysthIRss

[Edited on 3-10-2015 by NedsHead]
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[*] posted on 3-10-2015 at 05:01


Quote: Originally posted by j_sum1  
Thanks for the answers Bert and Ned. Since posting, I have taken a look at a couple of YT vids. This one impressed: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=12fR9neVnS8

I was thinking more along the lines of sugar rather than black powder since I do not currently have any charcoal available. Something added to give a bit more of a visible flame would be good. I do have Ti powder and Al powder if that helps. I have copper nitrate too which I assume would give a green colour.

I really don't want anything too powerful. I will probably scale down pretty small. I live in a suburban area and only need a lift of 15-20 metres maximum.

And to answer your question, NedsHead, a rocket ship has to fly. But according to the boss, "It's not supposed to go to space because that's too far."

[edit]
missed your post, ecos. You linked the very same one vid that Ik found.

[Edited on 3-10-2015 by j_sum1]


Black powder charcoal is fairly easy to achieve- My first junior high school chemistry lab was "destructive distillation of wood". And it's even easier if you're not condensing the vapors for later analysis... A clean metal paint can or old cookie tin with a small hole punched in the bottom, set on the BBQ grill until the smoke comin out the bottom hole stops burning. Set on dirt or sand and allow to cool completely.

Sugar rockets have approximate 1.5 times the specific impulse of old fashioned black powder, FYI! So if you WANT low performance, something to consider there- Copper nitrate (cuprous? cupric???) may not color a Carbon rich flame too well, and AFAIK both are hygroscopic, which is a bad thing. Copper carbonate or black Copper oxide are my usual choices in a blue flame colorant.

Try dissolving the Copper nitrate in methanol and making a "ghost mine" with it instead...

Fine Aluminum powder will probably burn inside the combustion chamber, rather than providing a silver spark "tail", Ti works better. Charcoal works for gold spark tail, and grain size is easier to alter than Ti.

[Edited on 3-10-2015 by Bert]




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