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James Ikanov
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[*] posted on 21-9-2016 at 12:19


This sounds a bit like a poor man's slapper detonator?
I haven't seen that specific setup....

When you say "non-detonating propellant" do you mean just the igniter or the entire assembly?? I assume the first....

If I was up for making speculation I have a relatively unused (and untested) mixture that might be very good for launching a flyer pretty effectively...... but I don't know of anything tested.

Honestly I see no reason why you couldn't just start with a slightly scaled up blasting cap assembly and a metal plug? Eg, a small amount of loose secondary at the bottom (possibly with a sensitizer), a ball bearing (of as close as possible to internal diameter of the tube), some NC or flash, then your initiator (fuse or wires) then crimp it? But that's rather vague....

Apologies if I seem rather useless.




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[*] posted on 21-9-2016 at 12:44


Quote: Originally posted by Zephyr  

I found the Bodine procedure for picric acid straightforward and reliable - did it outside and was careful about the fumes. (I just wanted a little for an amine isolation reagent.)[/rquote]

Nice! I did it recently also. So far I've been storing it dry in a glass jar with a plastic cap, how do you all store your's? Is the water necessary?


The usual procedure is to store with 20% water by mass. That is what I do. And I store it in a PLASTIC jar. Don't use glass.

[Edited on 21-9-2016 by careysub]
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[*] posted on 21-9-2016 at 13:37


One system for detonation without a primary would be injecting sulfuric acid into R-salt (I didn't try it personally but it's suposed to work).
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[*] posted on 21-9-2016 at 16:24


Quote: Originally posted by Bert  
Somewhere in the energetic materials forum, there is attached to a post a blasting cap diagram (patent drawing?) that details a cap with a small, pyrotechnicaly driven flyer with electric ignition which strikes a secondary explosive, rather than using a HV discharge or a standard primary. As far as I can recall, the propellant for the flyer was nitrocellulose-

I had downloaded this to my old iphone, but do not seem to have saved it to my desktop- and that phone is now dead.

Ring a bell with anyone?

Related question- What is the highest "flyer" velocity that you know of anyone achieving with a deflagreting solid propellant system, rather than driven by a detonation. Ideally without needing something, (expensive, non disposable!) like a taper bore, or other complex, heavy metal fabrication?

[Edited on 21-9-2016 by Bert]


I am very interested in this also, thank you for bringing this up Bert.

There is a youtube video where a man achieves 2000-3000fps using a 22rifle, 22 nailgun blank, and 22 pellet. This should be able to detonate tannerite, as a 17HMR reportedly does. There can't be more than a half a gram of nitro cellulose in a 22 blank. Maybe 2-3 grams of NC could due this without a barrel? I am wondering is a low velocity shape charge could work with a pyrotechnic mixture? all wee need is 3000fps...
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James Ikanov
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[*] posted on 23-9-2016 at 10:52


I can anecdotally say that low explosives such as flash are capable of producing "heaving" or "pushing" pressures when arranged in a shaped charge.

Several years ago I used a thin aluminum foil liner cone and a charge of a few grams (around 20?) to completely invert a bottle cap :)

It won't splinter metal or such, but it sure can output a lot of force.




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[*] posted on 1-10-2016 at 18:30


All,

I heard that titanium metal is excellent (the best...) for sensitizing AN... even better than Al. The finest titanium powder I could find was 325mesh atomized. I tried ballmill this for a few days in one of those rock tumblers with ball bearings... it did nothing.

This Ti seems useless as it does not coat the prills and it is spherical... any idea on reducing the particle size, or where I could buy Ti that is a few microns? I doubt a mortar and pestle, would work, as it did not Mg. How about buying Ti sponge and trying to grind that?
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[*] posted on 1-10-2016 at 19:08


Quote: Originally posted by MineMan  
All,

I heard that titanium metal is excellent (the best...) for sensitizing AN... even better than Al. The finest titanium powder I could find was 325mesh atomized. I tried ballmill this for a few days in one of those rock tumblers with ball bearings... it did nothing.

This Ti seems useless as it does not coat the prills and it is spherical... any idea on reducing the particle size, or where I could buy Ti that is a few microns? I doubt a mortar and pestle, would work, as it did not Mg. How about buying Ti sponge and trying to grind that?


What's wrong with using carbon? Titanium might be a bit better, but it is definitely much pricier.




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[*] posted on 2-10-2016 at 04:55


You might want to consider using non metalic sensitizers.

As an unlicensed person, storage should not be of concern, and from personal experience, the "Boomer Shoot" mixture of AN with Potassium chlorate and ethylene glycol is at LEAST as sensitive as genuine Tannerite binary to initiation by a centerfire rifle bullet. It is also CHEAPER, with a good record for both consistency in performance and (relative) safety in handling. A group of dedicated amateurs have made litterally tons of it every Spring for some years now, with no issues.

Boomershoot.org project glycol:

http://www.boomershoot.org/general/EG.htm

Quote:
Here is our maximum sensitivity mix:

1500 Grams Ammonium Nitrate. Prilled, not ground.
400 Grams Potassium Chlorate. 200 mesh powder.
3 tablespoons Ethylene Glycol. Cheap antifreeze with few or no preservatives.

Mix the EG with the AN until thoroughly blended.

Mix in the PC.

It will look very much like mixed curd size cottage cheese.

Seal in airtight containers.

Do not pack! The mixture must be slightly fluffy to detonate easily.



A mix of AN with about 15% ammonium perchlorate, 2% Potassium thiocyanide and 5% ethylene glycol might be interesting as well, but has no where near the long history of the Boomer Shoot mixture.

You could consider thiourea as a sensitizer as well... I suggest you keep quantities SMALL and be particularly careful if you do try thiourea, as I have no personal experience with this sensitizer- Gary Purrington apparently DOES, and feels it is worth considering. Gary is no fool and quite experienced in energetics work.

Thiourea: http://www.firefox-fx.com/ChemT.htm


Zephyr: Carbon as a pure element does not seem to provide sensitivity to initiation by bullet impact, which seems to be mineman's interest.

[Edited on 2-10-2016 by Bert]




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[*] posted on 2-10-2016 at 07:48


Bert,

I really appreciate your reply's, they are top notch! Yes, I was aware of the boomershoot formula, but I was uneasy about the mixture forming ammonium chlorate, even in the ten minutes it would sit on my truck tailgate...

But from what you are saying it definitely seems that it has stood the test of use from the boomershot people... I did not know they had made that much!

I don't know what Potassium thiocyanide is, but I was looking at firefox last night and saw the description for thiourea and it peaked my interest.

Yes, I am tired of my homemade mixes not being sensitive enough to rifle fire. A few days ago I tried 3%Al (2micron) 3%Mg (5micron), 5% NM and the rest AN powder with microballoons added. The mixture did not even spark from several glazes and 2 direct hits from a 223 at 50 yards (it was a small 150 grammer). Pretty frustrating...


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[*] posted on 2-10-2016 at 14:26


For rifle targets:

If you are not using chlorate- I suggest you leave out the nitromethane, use AN of low density in prilled form. Also leave out the microballoons, just don't pack it down.

Most of the sensitization work Joe did for Boomer Shoot is due to a desire to shoot those targets out to 600 yards, they hold a long range rifle clinic and work out to that distance, where just about any common rifle caliber is getting down well bellow 2,000 fps. They consider a target sensitive enough if CCI Stinger .22 LR out of a rifle explodes it at (way too few for my taste) yards-

Read ALL the Boomershoot development projects, Joe tried several routes to the final recipe. And subsequently, he did ageing tests out to a week or more that showed even if the targets were relatively safe and did not spontaneously combust, they did lose sensitivity if stored more than a couple of days.





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[*] posted on 2-10-2016 at 16:13


Ok, I will read all of his test, but yes I would like mine to go boom from a 22 stinger also. Why leave out the microballons and NM? Also, the AN I have is fertilizer grade, the prills average 2-3mm, and are solid. So even after activation the density is still .85g/cm3

This gentlemen was able to detonate ANNMAL with .2grams of SADS! He stated that his ratio (in one of the since deleted comments) was 5%NM, 5%Al flake (2micron I think), 10% Al automotive paint flake grade, 80%AN.

Also, the AN I have is fertilizer grade, the prills average 2-3mm, and are solid. So even after activation the density is still .85g/cm3

I have been unable to replicate these results with .2grams of SADS, but yes, I would like the most sensitive mix possible, that is safe, as that also give the option of more reliability with bullets, and with smaller caps...

Does anyone know if that youtuber is a forum member here, or was?
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[*] posted on 3-10-2016 at 05:08


Do you think is safe to accumulate large quantities of ETN, like 10 to 100 grams ? What do you think is the maximum quantity of ETN you should not overstep (and use a tertiary like AN mixtures instead) ?
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[*] posted on 6-10-2016 at 00:41


Quote: Originally posted by Tricka90  
Do you think is safe to accumulate large quantities of ETN, like 10 to 100 grams ? What do you think is the maximum quantity of ETN you should not overstep (and use a tertiary like AN mixtures instead) ?


Larger quantities don't necessarily equate to greater chances of accidental detonation but rather greater consequences if it does detonate.
Even then small quantities are dangerous, a single gram could basically remove your hand or blind you.

As far as storing large quantities of ETN. When properly purified and stabilized with an acid scrubber like urea it's very storage stable, if kept wet it would take a substantial mishap to cause an accidental detonation.
One could divide the wetted ETN between multiple containers and keep them far enough apart to prevent sympathetic detonations. Under those conditions any quantity would be reasonably safe to accumulate.
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[*] posted on 6-10-2016 at 06:05


Mineman, i think your problem is the fertilizer grade AN. I use low density micro prills and 5 micron spherical aluminum powder and have never had a failed detonation. I also add nitromethane sometimes with no problem.
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[*] posted on 6-10-2016 at 14:52
Shockwaves enter a piece of metal, at what speed will they move?


Sorry I could not thing of a proper subject title. Please just read the post ;)

Following hypothetical situation:

I'd like to compare several different energetic compounds by the dents they leave on a witness plate, made from steel.

I want to shoot all of them simultaniously via detcord.

Lets say 4 charges are maybe 40cm apart from each other.

Lets assume the 4 charges have a Vdet of about 3000m/s

Lets assume the detcord has a Vdet of about 5500m/s


Variant A:
The detcord is initiated and then runs from one charge to the next.

Variant B:
The detcord is initiated and divided into 4 individual strings that are cut to give exactly the same length to every charge.


In practice, with practically feasible tolerances, even with Variant B the charges wont fire exactly at the same time.

I wonder if this will cause the shockwaves of the faster ones to hit the slower ones in a way that their alignment on the witness plate will be changed, possibly in a way that their dents will be affected and thus the results will deviate...?

Can I assume that the shockwave travelling through the air will be slower enough / will slow down enough compared to the detcord and my test samples, in order not to rock them from their alignment early?

And:
If the first shockwave enters the steel - at what speed will it travel through it?
What is relevant, the speed of sound in Steel, around 5000m/s, or rather the speed of my samples, around 3000m/s?

Do you think the plate will start moving from the first hit in a way that the other samples will be thrown from their places before they can transfer their own shockwave into the metal?
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[*] posted on 6-10-2016 at 15:14


Huh... If I add to much nitro they catch on fire... kind of a pain because you cant approach it to set it off!

I agree, but I grind it up and add microballoons....

anyways, I have activated the AN prills twice and lowered the density from 1.0 to .63, I have yet to do test.

Firefox told me that air space is essential, and microballoons cannot replace the airspace in between prills. I just don't get this... it does not make any sense. Emulsion explosives are at a density of 1.2 and they go off every time with a cap, they use microballoons....
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[*] posted on 6-10-2016 at 15:27


You should be fine in all senerios. I do not envision any constructive or constructive shock wave interference...
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[*] posted on 9-10-2016 at 01:50


How can you calculate how much primary and secondary (booster) are needed to properly detonate a given amount of tertiary (like an AN mixture such as AmmonAl, ANFO etc.)?
For example, if you want to detonate 1kg of AmmonAl how would you evaluate how many grams of booster (taking into account his initiating efficiency of course) and primary are needed?
Is there at least any good rule of thumb?
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[*] posted on 9-10-2016 at 09:52


Tricka,

I have thumbed through many books on mining and civil explosives, and I cannot say that I have ever seen such an equation.

First, your question makes me have a few more questions... when you ask for the amount of primary and secondary... you should already know how much primary you need.

Your best bet is to read patents and look at other posts on here to see what members did...

ANFO... I am not sure why you would want to do ANFO.... it is quite insensitive, and when it is sensitive, it is at a low density. There are probably better fuels than Diesel....
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[*] posted on 9-10-2016 at 11:19
Shockwaves enter a piece of metal, at what speed will they move?


@Tricka:
You can initiate an infinite amount of Ammonal with a standard 800mg PETN output equipped blasting cap. If it will initiate 1Kg, it will also do 1000Kg.

@Mineman: Are you sure?

Any more opinions on my question above?
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[*] posted on 9-10-2016 at 11:48


I have never seen an equation regarding primary amounts either.
The closest thing to you question is that you can choose the size detonator that is required from #1 to #8. No.8 being the strongest with something like 2 g secondary base charge which should detonate any explosive deemed detonatable without requirement for a booster. I agree with gargamels example as well.

ANFO is certainly not the best in regards to performance and sensitivity to a cap and doesnt really excel in much other than breaking up rock into manageable pieces in mining nowadays or maybe blowing stumps.
I would definitely be adding a booster in there to ensure high order detonation of the main charge if I was using it.
There are much better fuels like nitromethane and when I was young and used to use ANNM a 1 gram cap used to reliably detonate it every time.




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[*] posted on 9-10-2016 at 12:48


Thanks a lot MineMan, Gargamel and greenlight for all the quick and very informative replies.

@MineMan:
Lately I've been watching lots of AmmonAl detonation videos on Youtube and I came up with a general and somewhat conservative rule of thumb: to detonate 1 mass unit of AmmonAl, about 0.01 mass units of secondary are needed. For example, to detonate 1kg AmmonAl 10g ETN should be used. I know it doesn't make much sense (it assumes all secondaries are equivalent and their required quantity is proportional to the tertiary's), but the vast majority of detonations I saw on Youtube seems to agree with that rule.

@Gargamel:
That's very interesting! That means one should not worry about calculating the amount of secondary for a given mass of AmmonAl since about 1gr PETN would work for every quantity, I'm happy to know that.

@greenlight:
Yes, I know ANNM and ANNMAl are way more sensitive and efficient, the problem is Nitromethane sale has been banned some years ago in my country so I won't be able to use it... For now I'm just going to study AmmonAl and gain as much information as I can about it.
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[*] posted on 10-10-2016 at 01:31


@Tricka90, you should be able to distill nitromethane from remote control car fuel if you have that in your country. It contains methanol, nitromethane and castor oil.
The methanol will come over at 65 C and the nitromethane at 100 C. Should be easy to seperate.
Definitely would be worth a look at if you want an quite powerful easy to detonate AN-based explosive. VOD around 5000 - 6000m/s I think compared to Ammonals 4400m/s.


[Edited on 10-10-2016 by greenlight]




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[*] posted on 10-10-2016 at 12:36


Quote: Originally posted by greenlight  
you should be able to distill nitromethane from remote control car fuel...

That's great I didn't know that, thanks a lot! I'll definitely try that solution.
For now I'm very interested in trying to succeed in detonating AmmonAl, which is going to be easier than I thought since less than a gram of high efficiency secondary should be enough to detonate virtually any amount, as Gargamel said.
Then I'll try with AN and nitromethane mixtures, if I'll succeed in properly detonating AmmonAl I think detonating ANNM or ANNMAl would be piece of cake I think. :D
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[*] posted on 11-10-2016 at 18:38


I recently purchased some dicyandiamide for conversion to tetrazole derivatives. However, I would like to avoid the explicit handling of azide salts. Since the reaction of calcium cyanamide and hydrazine sulfate produces aminoguanidine, but the reaction of dicyandiamide and hydrazine produces a mixture of products, is there a straightforward way to convert cyanamide's dimer to its calcium salt? Maybe treating it with a base work work, or would that make melamine instead?
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