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Hennig Brand
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Good job. I think the time I vaporized the picric acid I was probably getting pretty close to detonation. I did get the picric acid to detonate, soon
after though, with HMTD and a little silver fulminate on top to reduce the time to make DDT. I remember, during the AP tests, that I did have the TNP
pressed to a very high density, so reducing the density a bit especially near the primary probably would have helped. What diameter was your charge
and what were the weights of AP and TNP used? Do you have any idea what densities the TNP and AP were pressed to? Was your TNP in large crystals or
fine crystals?
I noticed in one of your videos that you mentioned using salicylic acid, sulfuric acid and fuming HNO3 to make the TNP. You should have had excellent
purity. I have tested my TNP (made from ASA, NaNO3 and Sulfuric acid), by melting point determination, and it measured at least 98% pure. I wonder if
even 1 to 2% of DNP or other contaminant might make a big difference in terms of sensitivity in the small diameters of a cap.
[Edited on 27-12-2013 by Hennig Brand]
"A risk-free world is a very dull world, one from which we are apt to learn little of consequence." -Geerat Vermeij
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Ral123
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Isn't silver fulminate supposed to be even more sensitive then HMTD?
In my test, the catdboard tube was about 9mm, the TNP was hammered well with a bolt. Not recrystalized, only washed material(powder). With some hand
pressed TNP on top. The AP was hand pressed with dense paper rod. Was there direct contact of the primary and TNP in your test? Do you know if washed
only TNP can be stored like, indefinitely at room temperature and in dark?
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Hennig Brand
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Well it was not something I planned on making a habit of. In fact it was the first and last time I ever used silver fulminate in a cap. The amount
used was very small (~0.05 g or so) and was only used because at the time it was what I had that made DDT very quickly in tiny amounts (just like an
azide). It was the first time I was able to detonate TNP. Up until then it was just failed attempts with TATP. In the "picric acid different
instructions" thread, I believe I discussed it back in 2009 or 2010 around the time I did the experiments.
HMTD is more powerful than AP, but it still takes significant time and column height to make DDT. By using a little silver fulminate on top the whole
charge of HMTD is able to detonate high order and not just what was left after it has made DDT on its own.
I don't think TNP is degraded much by light IIRC. In general, compounds tend to have increased storage stability as purity increases. TNP is extremely
storage stable, but I am not sure how different contaminants in different concentrations will affect it. My TNP is always recrystallized at least once
from water, with very slow cooling of the hot, near saturated solution in order to produce large, pure crystals of TNP (as per Rosco's instructions).
[Edited on 28-12-2013 by Hennig Brand]
"A risk-free world is a very dull world, one from which we are apt to learn little of consequence." -Geerat Vermeij
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caterpillar
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Quote: Originally posted by roXefeller  | Caterpillar
Like I said, some have mixed feelings about it compared to LA, SA, or others. It might be sensitive to friction, but not like AP.
I made it recently, but haven't had a chance to press it into a cap. I agree the TNP should be easy, but I strayed and tried to use ammonium nitrate
as the nitrate salt. So it gave me a little trouble, that and my temps were usually only running in the 105 range, not high enough for timely yields,
so I ended up with a dirty, but functional TNP. Like I said, my hardest part was the the TNP. I sourced Na2S.3H2O from a photo supplier, so I didn't
have any residual sulfur in the picramic acid resulting from the NaOH/S step. I will say that I tried sodium ascorbate but I couldn't get it to
reduce, probably a matter of temperature. Technical grade Na2S is really the trick, because it also reduces at low temperatures. The DDNP flashed
cleanly unconfined, and I never noticed precipitated sulfur. But I could just be dumb about these things. I can't say anything about effectiveness.
You may be right that it isn't effective for detonating, I can't say, but maybe Mark Gollum can chime in (https://www.sciencemadness.org/whisper/viewthread.php?tid=43...) since he has a similar experience on the reduction.
Once I get it pressed, I'll try it in sand to check it for proper detonation/brisance. There are some journal articles I can use to compare this
against, which at least hold up the perfectly made product as being capable, if only as a mid-tier compound. I guess my point is, I'd rather the OP
be frustrated trying to perfect his method than fall out of the 10finger club going after the low peroxide fruit. He could go the other way and go
after the top shelf primaries.
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OK, let's sum my own experience up. Mercury fulminate- worked well, AN + 10% of some shit which I suspected was dinitronaphtalene. Charge went off in
my immediate vicinity. There was no pain at all. Ag2C2- I made a big mistake, using ammonia solution of AgNO3 (I had to use 10% HNO3!). This shit
sounded well, but was unable to initiate TNP. TATP was my last choice, and it worked more than effective. I cannot say about TNP, but mixture of
ammonium picrate with AN, which is most likely less sensitive than pure TNP went off, Same thing with ammonium stiphnate and R-salt. I did not try to
use kalium picrate as a primary. It goes off, been ignited in confinement.
Women are more perilous sometimes, than any hi explosive.
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jjgoh
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Sorry for Interrupt the topic you all chatting,
I found one fulminating powder aka yellow powder it clarify as high explosive from some pyrotechnics forums. I don't have potassium carbonate and I dk
where to get it. I get kno3+sodium benzoate +sulfur, when it melt it make a loud bang. If you burn directly it just burn slowly. Is this true
?
Okay back to topic
Seems like tatp are effective, some people said peroxides are sucks because of the unpredictable detonated. Ddnp seems okay but picric acid I got no
idea how it's made and I not familiar or heard those chemicals needed to make picric acid. Is pure AN prills explosive?
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Marvin
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It's your topic, they are supposed to stick to it.
For yellow powder sodium carbonate will work instead, but it will not keep as well. You can heat baking soda or washing soda until it
decomposes/dehydrates to anhydrous sodium carbonate. The solution is high order when hot. If sodium benzoate works it is certainly not ideal. Some
of the chemistry is against it.
For other answers read "The chemistry of powder and explosives" by Tenney L Davis. It's in the Sciencemadness library.
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jjgoh
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Thanks!
If higher density for a explosive, does it deal more damage? I'm reading the chemistry of powder and explosive
Actually you guys can continue the topics , I am reading it and learning it from you all. 
[Edited on 28-12-2013 by jjgoh]
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roXefeller
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I want to avoid spoonfeeding, but ammonium nitrate prills can detonate read this current thread (http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=28164#...). I'll let you look for ammonium nitrate (AN) mixtures to see how they do it.
Picric acid: I'm not sure what you are reading, but its supply list is very easy to come by. Read this post (http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=4457&a...) and so a search for the things you see, they can be found locally in my area as
commercial products for another purpose. If you really can't source them then try asking specifically, or search the reagent forum.
[Edited on 28-12-2013 by roXefeller]
[Edited on 28-12-2013 by roXefeller]
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Dany
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Yes, the higher the density the higher the detonation performance of an explosive. the brisance of an explosive is tightly linked to detonation
pressure Pcj (where C-J is Champan-Jouguet point) and since Pcj is proportional to density squared (ρ2) a small
increase in density lead to an appreciable increase in detonation pressure. Also, detonation velocity Dcj is a linear function of ρ.
The majority of powerful military high explosive fall in this category (Pcj∝ρ2 & Dcj∝ρ )
However, experiment shows that for highly non-ideal explosive like ammonium nitrate base explosive or hydrazinium azide Dcj increase with
density up to a certain level, than Dcj drops as ρ continue to increase, so in these types of explosives there is an optimum density
for maximum Dcj (which is not necessarily the highest possible density like in conventional monomolecular military explosive and mixtures).
Dany.
[Edited on 28-12-2013 by Dany]
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Ral123
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| Quote: Originally posted by Dany |
Yes, the higher the density the higher the detonation performance of an explosive. the brisance of an explosive is tightly linked to detonation
pressure Pcj (where C-J is Champan-Jouguet point) and since Pcj is proportional to density squared (ρ2) a small
increase in density lead to an appreciable increase in detonation pressure. Also, detonation velocity Dcj is a linear function of ρ.
The majority of powerful military high explosive fall in this category (Pcj∝ρ2 & Dcj∝ρ )
However, experiment shows that for highly non-ideal explosive like ammonium nitrate base explosive or hydrazinium azide Dcj increase with
density up to a certain level, than Dcj drops as ρ continue to increase, so in these types of explosives there is an optimum density
for maximum Dcj (which is not necessarily the highest possible density like in conventional monomolecular military explosive and mixtures).
Dany.
[Edited on 28-12-2013 by Dany] |
And as you mentioned in a previous post-the incompressibility of the output products. That's why lead azide is quite weak weight basis.
I didn't know the velocity is proportional to the square of the density. I just finished making 8g ETN booster for new year NM/Al charge and may be it
would've been better if I had cast it, but I preferred reliability and made it pressed.
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Turner
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And you are going to detonate that where?
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roXefeller
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For that ETN booster are you hoping to reach a higher detonation velocity or do you need an appropriate velocity and an appropriate brisance to
detonate the NM/Al? I was under the impression that you didn't need to have the booster velocity larger than the main charge velocity. If you can
get fast enough velocities to do the job without having to sacrifice reliability (by casting) it seems like a practical optimum.
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Ral123
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If you have cast TNP, you have a zone with pressed TNP, witch you call a booster. With my charge, the more brisant the booster is, the shorter the
overall time of the explosion is. I even have the feeling that with my design, it will set off even almost pure NM, but as it's new year, I won't
spare aluminium powder. The NM has a lot of hydrogen and I'm expecting some thermobaric effect also.
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Turner
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"The more brisant the booster is the shorter the overall time of the explosion is"
What do you mean?
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Ral123
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In the charge I plan, the booster is comparable in size with the main(100ml NM/Al). I'm feeling that heavily aluminized NM can be set off with just a
little AP/HMTD, but the whole thing will detonate from end to end on it's own, witch you can imagine isn't too fast. I feel like the 8+grams of ETN
will send a powerful shockwave trough the 100ml charge and significantly increase performance.
ANFO is often detonated cap->400g Pentolite->few kilos high performance emulsion explosive->main ANFO charge instead of 7g Tetryl->main
ANFO charge.
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Dany
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| Quote: Originally posted by Ral123 | | I feel like the 8+grams of ETN will send a powerful shockwave trough the 100ml charge and significantly increase performance |
Increasing the booster weight doesn't mean that the main charge will detonate at higher detonation performance. a big quantity of booster will set off
the main charge reliably while a more performant booster (having Dcj and Pcj greater than the main charge) will induce an
overdriven detonation wave in the explosive (main charge) that will decay with time/distance as it travel inside the explosive, finally the charge
will continue to detonate according to it's own characteristic.
Dany.
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Ral123
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| Quote: Originally posted by Dany | | Quote: Originally posted by Ral123 | | I feel like the 8+grams of ETN will send a powerful shockwave trough the 100ml charge and significantly increase performance |
Increasing the booster weight doesn't mean that the main charge will detonate at higher detonation performance. a big quantity of booster will set off
the main charge reliably while a more performant booster (having Dcj and Pcj greater than the main charge) will induce an
overdriven detonation wave in the explosive (main charge) that will decay with time/distance as it travel inside the explosive, finally the charge
will continue to detonate according to it's own characteristic.
Dany. |
This is what I tried to say, 8g ETN @ 1.4-1.5 will surely have an effect on 100ml NM/Al 70/30. The booster case is plastic syringe with wax tamping
over the ETN. It's going deep in the 100ml bottle of main material. I really expect all the superheated hydrogen that will be produced to give a nice
explosion appearance.
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Dany
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and what do you mean by superheated hydrogen??? or your are trying to say another thing?
Dany.
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Ral123
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| Quote: Originally posted by Dany | and what do you mean by superheated hydrogen??? or your are trying to say another thing?
Dany. |
There are few people on this forum who would take it so literally. I wonder why they don't add Al in grenades. HE ones rely on the blast wave and the
fragmentation ones need moderate brisanse to work properly.
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Marvin
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Ral123, I think you should start another thread with your ideas. This is all way off topic.
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caterpillar
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| Quote: Originally posted by Dany | | Quote: Originally posted by Ral123 | | I feel like the 8+grams of ETN will send a powerful shockwave trough the 100ml charge and significantly increase performance |
Increasing the booster weight doesn't mean that the main charge will detonate at higher detonation performance. a big quantity of booster will set off
the main charge reliably while a more performant booster (having Dcj and Pcj greater than the main charge) will induce an
overdriven detonation wave in the explosive (main charge) that will decay with time/distance as it travel inside the explosive, finally the charge
will continue to detonate according to it's own characteristic.
Dany. |
Dear Dany, there is another way to get velocity of detonation above normal. For example, a powerful booster creates cumulative jet, which goes through
explosive with hi velocity and causes detonation along its way through aforementioned explosive. So simple.
Women are more perilous sometimes, than any hi explosive.
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Dany
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Dear caterpillar on what cumulative jet are you talking about and what is simple about that?
Dany.
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Ral123
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That sound genius, but the main charge will act like one big reactive armour and maybe the performance increase will be offset by the density loss of
the cavity. I've heard of such principle used in some blast caps, but I don't know why.
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caterpillar
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I read something like this about initiation of NG. Booster with cone, covered with Cu, generates cumulative jet, which may have velocity up to 15
km/sec. This jet goes through liquid NG and initiates the whole volume with such velocity. Such principle is used in at nearly each blast cups, yeah.
The idea is to concentrate energy in small volume. Detonation can be achieved, using significantly smaller amount of primary. Blast cup generates
small, but powerful jet. I cannot confirm such info, but one of my friends told me, that if one want to kill himself, an ordinary hand grenade must be
used in a special way. It must be exploded, near one's heart in a particular position- its cumulative jet must go just through heart. Otherwise it
won't kill- some scratches and contusion. He was in Afghanistan, where to be captured with locals means more than unpleasant death.
Women are more perilous sometimes, than any hi explosive.
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Ral123
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He told that 100g composition B wont kill a man, unless it's shaped charge?
Who detonates pure NG in the industry? If they do, the "copper jet" would be very hard countered by the nitro going high order.
The problem with blast cap No8 isn't that the pressure isn't high enough, but rather that the main charge wont sustain the blast wave(if it has high
critical diameter, like cast TNT). For example cap with shaped bottom would be quite bad for ANFO.
I try to make boosters closest possible to dense, caseless sphere with diameter and power higher then the critical diameter and power of the
secondary.
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