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jjgoh
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[*] posted on 2-1-2014 at 20:51


Kclo3 cost me around usd60 for 1kilo! Wtf! Expensive
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jjgoh
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[*] posted on 2-1-2014 at 20:52


NHN, I read about it before, it's produce phygene gas which is deadly!
I would not like to touch these hazardous chemical
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[*] posted on 2-1-2014 at 21:48


Quote: Originally posted by jjgoh  
NHN, I read about it before, it's produce phygene gas which is deadly!
I would not like to touch these hazardous chemical

What did you expect from nickel and hydrazine? Or you think azides or mercury salts are somewhat friendly?
Develop interest in another hobby. Most of the materials will be able to harm you in some way.
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[*] posted on 4-1-2014 at 08:32


Quote: Originally posted by Ral123  
"very safe primary" I hold a firm believe that the safety is in your head.
I'm pretty sure LA won't be a very good primary at all, if it's not in contact with the secondary. If there would be some separation between the primary and let's say RDX base charge. Then you need good explosive properties, rather then initiating properties. And LA doesn't cope well with the decomposition products of storage of most base charge materials.
In other words, if it's not a compound cap, why would the azide shine?


I thought almost all commercial and military caps were now compound caps, for many years, for many good reasons. I use compound caps for just about everything, even though they aren't necessarily needed at all for things like dynamite. They are used because they provide increased initiating ability and safety for starters. I am not an expert, I only pretend to be one on the internet as they say, but what makes a good initiator is complicated and is often not always intuitive. Initiating ability is about how the energy is delivered, in real life, with real materials and in real life practical quantities. For instance, if the specifications given for a primary are based on high order steady state conditions, and in reality it takes 20 g or so to reach those conditions, it really doesn't matter (in practically terms) if it's VOD (at those conditions) is 1000 m/s more than say lead azide.

Lead azide has proven to have good storage stable in compound caps. It can be degraded by CO2 in the air, but in a hermetically sealed cap casing that isn't an issue. One of the main reasons for it's popularity was storage stability. Storage stability is not perfect, however, according to "Primary Explosives by Matyas" much more LA than is needed to initiate the base charge in caps is apparently used to ensure reliability even after years of storage.

As far as NHN goes, I haven't actually worked with it yet. It was advertised in journals, etc, as being very safe (relatively, from an explosive perspective). There is of course significant risk of poisoning, when dealing with hydrazine and nickel salts.

[Edited on 4-1-2014 by Hennig Brand]




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[*] posted on 4-1-2014 at 08:48


Quote: Originally posted by jjgoh  
NHN, I read about it before, it's produce phygene gas which is deadly!
I would not like to touch these hazardous chemical


What is phygene gas ? NHN is alright. The starting material is toxic, the final product is alright.
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[*] posted on 4-1-2014 at 09:26


This makes TATP seem much friendlier as a primary than its reputation indicates. Maybe it really is just all the inexperienced kids making it, and in really large quantities, which has given TATP such a bad reputation. I am still hesitant to trust it though (not that any primary should be trusted).

Attachment: TATP Mass Loss and Friction Sensitivity During Ageing Matyas.pdf (840kB)
This file has been downloaded 364 times

[Edited on 4-1-2014 by Hennig Brand]




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Etanol
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[*] posted on 5-1-2014 at 11:12


Quote: Originally posted by Dany  
Quote: Originally posted by Etanol  

This is not a deflagration. More like a low-velocity detonation.
Explosion passed through metal barriers. Due to the pressure. No heat transfer or hot particles.
All mixes fuel - oxidizer explode in this mode.
another example:
33% Pb (H2PO2) 2 + 67% Pb (NO3) 2
in 4.8mm plastic tube
1.4 g/cm3 238 +/- 5 m/s
2.0 g/cm3 304 +/- 6 m/s
This is less than the speed of sound in air! (330 m/s). But the explosion did not fit the definition of deflagration.
[Edited on 27-12-2013 by Etanol]

Can you explain to me what do you mean by "This is less than the speed of sound in air! (330 m/s). But the explosion did not fit the definition of deflagration"?
Dany.


" Deflagration is a term describing subsonic combustion propagating through heat transfer; hot burning material heats the next layer of cold material and ignites it. "

" Detonation is the supersonic spread of combustion by shock compression. "

Explosion mixture Armstrong and nitrofosfit lead:
1. Explosive reaction is transferred between the material layers by using pressure (shock compression)
2. Velocity propagation reaction coincides with the velocity of sound in the starting material

I worked with HN. NHN difficult in practical use. Detonator need at least 0.4-0.5 g NHN in a hard metal casing. Otherwise he would not detonate.
He really is not very sensitive to friction. Impact sensitivity like PETN.

PS Sorry for the machine English



[Edited on 5-1-2014 by Etanol]
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[*] posted on 11-1-2014 at 10:12


This is a good topic as primaries are the starting point of all explosions and a strong reliable one is essential. Primaries are unfortunately where many people injure themselves. While they are inherently dangerous safety should be one of the deciding factors when choosing one. I have several criteria for primaries to judge which one I want to make next. These criteria are
-cost and availability of starting materials
-toxicity and hazards of starting materials
-is the procedure of synthesis within my abilities and do I have the necessary lab equipment
-stability and storage (if applicable)
-and finally power (ie. brisance/VOD/etc.)
As far as my involvement goes in EM I wish only to use primaries as initiators and maybe do some standard small scale test as to get an idea of the properties of the material. Personally I do not see any reason to mess with exotic primaries with sketchy and toxic starting materials and over elaborate synthesis. I was (and still am) using HMTD and while it has a bad rep. of being unstable due to the weak oxygen to oxygen bond I have never had trouble. IMO while it is clearly not the best choice I use very pure analytical lab grade starting materials, I have my own procedure which I follow to the letter (I have extra steps in there to make an extra pure product) and taking special care in handling and short term storage. Never the less I want to make a more stable initiator that was not sensitive to metals, UV rays and everything else so I decided on LA. I have heard good things about it and it fits all my criteria with the exception of the lead and it can be set off with an electric match.
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[*] posted on 12-1-2014 at 13:11


Quote: Originally posted by Scientwisted  
Never the less I want to make a more stable initiator that was not sensitive to metals, UV rays and everything else so I decided on LA. I have heard good things about it and it fits all my criteria with the exception of the lead and it can be set off with an electric match.


Good call....LA is the industry standard with decades of practical use, reliable research data and proven performance.
But the experiment is the criterion of truth....therefore I began the construction of testing hardware for essential criteria:

Impact sensitivity tester
Roto-friction tester
Electrical discharge sensitivity tester

Getting lucky is going to wear thin with time and without proper quality control system this hobby is bound to take a piece of us.....as a quality control manager I should know ;)




Exact science is a figment of imagination.......
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[*] posted on 15-1-2014 at 14:29


I know LA is considered very stable, but how safe for storage exactly is the dextrinated lead azide? What about when it's pressed in caps? I imagine it'd be quite storage safe, since it's not like the people who use it professionally make their own as they go, but that's the industry quality stuff. What about in a compound cap with double salts

I've read conflicting things on whether it is best stored dry or under water or alcohol

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[*] posted on 31-3-2014 at 06:06


Quote: Originally posted by jjgoh  
So what should I do right now? Read more information on safety?
Oh god! That's seriously freaking dangerous!
[Edited on 26-12-2013 by jjgoh]


Yes, you should read more information on safety.



Quote:

THE FORGOTTEN BIT OF FULMINATE

IN experimenting with high explosives and in their
manufacture, a little absent-mindedness, a very
slight lack of exact caution, a seemingly insignificant
inadvertence for a moment, may cost one limb or
his life. The incident that cost me my left hand is
a case in point.

On the day preceding that accident, I had a gold
cap put on a tooth. In consequence, the tooth
ached and kept me awake the grater part of the
night. Next morning I rose early and went down
to my factory at Maxim, New Jersey. In order to test
the dryness of some fulminate compound I took
a little piece of it, about the size of an English penny,
broke off a small particle, placed it on a stand
outside the laboratory, and, lighting a match, touched
it off. Owing to my loss of sleep the night before, my
mind was not so alert as usual, and I forgot to lay
aside the remaining piece of fulminate compound,
but, instead, held it in my left hand. A spark from
the ignited piece entered my left hand between my
fingers, igniting the piece there, with the result that
my hand was blown off to the wrist, and the next
thing I saw was the bare end of the wrist bone. My
face and clothes were bespattered with flesh and filled
with slivers of bone. . . . The following day, my thumb
was found on the top of a building a couple of hundred
feet away, with a sinew attached to it, which had
been pulled out from the elbow.

A tourniquet was immediately tightened around
my wrist to prevent the flow of blood, and I and
two of my assistants walked half a mile down to
the railroad, where we tried to stop an upgoing
train with a red flag. But it ran the flag down
and went on, the engineering thinking, perhaps,
from our wild gesticulations that we were highwaymen.

We then walked another half-mile to a farmhouse,
where a horse and wagon were procured. Thence
I was driven to Farmingdale, four and a half miles
distant, where I had to wait two hours for the next
train to New York.

The only physician in the town was an invalid, ill with
tuberculosis. I called on him while waiting, and condoled
with him, as he was much worse off then was I.

On arrival in New York, I was taken in a carriage
to the elevated station at the Brooklyn Bridge.
On reaching my station at Eighty-fourth Street,
I walked four blocks, and then up four flights of
stairs to my apartments on Eighty-second
street, where the surgeon was awaiting me.
It was now evening, and the accident has occurred
at half-past ten o'clock in the morning. That was
a pretty hard day!

As I had no electric lights in the apartments, only gas,
the surgeon declared that it would be dangerous to
administer ether, and the must, therefore, chloroform
me. He added that there was no danger in using
chloroform, if the patient had a strong heart. Thereupon
I asked him to examine my heart, since, if there should
be the least danger of my dying under the influence of the
anesthetic, I wanted to make my will.

"Heart!" exclaimed the surgeon, with emphasis.
"A man who has gone through what you have gone
through today hasn't any heart!" The next day I
dictated letters to answer my correspondence as
usual. The young woman stenographer, who took
my dictation, remarked with a sardonic smile:

"You, too, have now become a shorthanded writer."
The grim jest appealed to my sense of humor.

On the third day I was genuinely ill and had no
wish to do business. Within ten days, however,
I was out again, attending to my affairs.


Hudson Maxim Dynamite Stories 1916



Hudson Maxim had a serious case of hard ass going on.

Another story tells of how his house maid saw him use pieces of gelignite from the factory to light the kitchen wood stove- And tried it with a whole stick. They needed a new girl AND a new stove after that one.

Then there was a story about an Irish immigrant worker who took a wooden barrel that was contaminated with nitroglycerin from the nitro washing building over to the industrial oven where the Sodium nitrate for dynamite was dried, and dumped the HOT (RATHER over 100 C!) nitrate into the NG soaked barrel to move it on to the dynamite mixing building... Title is: "Discharging Pat". (Anglo Americans were pretty prejudiced against the Irish back then

[Edited on 31-3-2014 by Bert]




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2. List any points of agreement (especially if they are not matters of general or widespread agreement).
3. Mention anything you have learned from your target.
4. Only then are you permitted to say so much as a word of rebuttal or criticism.

Anatol Rapoport was a Russian-born American mathematical psychologist (1911-2007).

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[*] posted on 15-4-2014 at 00:49


Someone can help me in this question

I wrote this question to other section but I didn't take answer satisfactory

For example Tatp is a static sensitive explosives. For its is able to go off through static discharge, a human is needed ?(can it just go off through a human who has enough static electricity) I mean can it go off itself through static discharge when it is in a tube.

Little note : I didn't synthesize tatp I can explain myself with this question you can change tatp with other static sensitive primaries
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[*] posted on 15-4-2014 at 01:08


FeRe, you are asking this question because you synthesized TATP and you are afraid that the tube will go off by itself or between your hand...wright? a small advice boy, stay away from peroxide and sensitive explosive, your parent need you and you need to keep your hand safe...

Dany.
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[*] posted on 15-4-2014 at 01:21


Quote: Originally posted by Dany  
FeRe, you are asking this question because you synthesized TATP and you are afraid that the tube will go off by itself or between your hand...wright? a small advice boy, stay away from peroxide and sensitive explosive, your parent need you and you need to keep your hand safe...

Dany.

I said this on the top "Little note : I didn't synthesize tatp I can explain myself with this question you can change tatp with other static sensitive primaries"

I didn't synthesize tatp why you say that everytime I explained this I didn't make tatp
Why you say me "boy" I am 25 years old

[Edited on 15-4-2014 by FeRe]
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Dany
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[*] posted on 15-4-2014 at 01:27


because your childish question shows that you didn't search well on the net to see if probable answer can be found. Here's something that can help you on how static charge can build up.

https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070413074632A...

Dany.

[Edited on 15-4-2014 by Dany]
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[*] posted on 15-4-2014 at 07:01


Quote: Originally posted by Dany  
because your childish question shows that you didn't search well on the net to see if probable answer can be found. Here's something that can help you on how static charge can build up.

https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070413074632A...

Dany.

[Edited on 15-4-2014 by Dany]

I know how it is building up I just want to learn that a explosive which sensitive to static discharge build up static, can it discharge (by itself) when there is a no human and no conductive metal ? what we need to occur a discharge ? a human right or conductive thing ? I just want to know this


[Edited on 15-4-2014 by FeRe]
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[*] posted on 15-4-2014 at 08:32
Static electricity basics


Here is a VERY basic introduction to static electricity concepts.

Once you know what static electricity even IS, (Apparently you DO NOT) look at the relative sensitivities of some primary explosives to static discharge:

Look here, pp. 31-32. Then read the rest of the PDF.

If you want to be treated as an adult, read and follow these procedures




Rapopart’s Rules for critical commentary:

1. Attempt to re-express your target’s position so clearly, vividly and fairly that your target says: “Thanks, I wish I’d thought of putting it that way.”
2. List any points of agreement (especially if they are not matters of general or widespread agreement).
3. Mention anything you have learned from your target.
4. Only then are you permitted to say so much as a word of rebuttal or criticism.

Anatol Rapoport was a Russian-born American mathematical psychologist (1911-2007).

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[*] posted on 15-4-2014 at 11:04


I use a mix of nickel (II) trihydrazino nitrate complex with silver acetylide nitrate complex in the ratio 2/1 by weight in a way to boost up the power of the SAN complex and to improve the explosivity/detonativity of the NHN with less confinment and quantity.

The two unsoluble complexes are tolerant to each other in the dry state.
The mix of the pink-lilac (Ni(N2H4)3(NO3)2) and of the white-grey (Ag2C2.xHNO3) powders look like the first powder but slightly lighter in color. The VOD of the mix is between 6500 and 7000 m/s.




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[*] posted on 4-7-2014 at 06:58


Something unexpected happened today. I would make a few grams of silver acetylide double salt, and got a remarkable result. This was the way I did it.

First I dissolved 5.08 g of silver (99.9% Ag) in 25.0 ml of HNO3 (~ 68%) and ~ 25 ml d.H2O. Heated to 61 °C to dissolve the last remnants of silver. Then I added ~ 50 ml d.H2O and began to bubble acetylene gas through the solution. After about 30 minutes it had precipitated snow white crystals. I filtered and was quite pleased. For safety's sake, I took the filtered liquid back into the measuring cylinder and bubbled more acetylene through. To my amazement, I got now a reddish brown precipitate!

What is what?

I have not dried crystals yet so I do not know how much there is of each type.

Pictures are coming when I have dried and weighed crystals.
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[*] posted on 4-7-2014 at 08:01


Quote: Originally posted by Stortulling  
Something unexpected happened today. I would make a few grams of silver acetylide double salt, and got a remarkable result. This was the way I did it.

First I dissolved 5.08 g of silver (99.9% Ag) in 25.0 ml of HNO3 (~ 68%) and ~ 25 ml d.H2O. Heated to 61 °C to dissolve the last remnants of silver. Then I added ~ 50 ml d.H2O and began to bubble acetylene gas through the solution. After about 30 minutes it had precipitated snow white crystals. I filtered and was quite pleased. For safety's sake, I took the filtered liquid back into the measuring cylinder and bubbled more acetylene through. To my amazement, I got now a reddish brown precipitate!

What is what?

I have not dried crystals yet so I do not know how much there is of each type.

Pictures are coming when I have dried and weighed crystals.

You used distillated water or tap water? The second contains chloride, sulfate, carbonate and are no good for stability.

Solution must be exhausted several times with acetylen to get all the silver out. Usually I wash the precipitate with distillated water and put the filtrate back with the initial filtrate for second and third acetylen pass.

If you made your acetylen via CaC2/H2O in the case some of the mist/foam contains Ca(OH)2 and pass into the AgNO3 reactor via the pipe...AgOH forms and decompose to Ag2O what colors the acetylide precipitate in red-brown-black precipitate.
Same occurs if you dry your precipitate or let the AgNO3 solution exposed to bright light (especially sunlight)
This precipitate is more sensitive to shock and friction than the white one.

Best to do the reaction indoor with moderate light...drying in the same conditions or in the dark.
Storage in closed opaque soft recipient (I use PE photo film canisher but those are harder and harder to get :cool: :))

That way the complex last for years without decomposition or darkening!

[Edited on 4-7-2014 by PHILOU Zrealone]




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[*] posted on 4-7-2014 at 09:41


I used distilled water, indoors and with minimal lighting.
It could be that there were some contaminants in the filter paper I used (bleached paper). The first precipitate I filtered as I wrote was snow white (almost looks like titanium dioxide), but it was after I had filtered that I got the brownish precipitate. There are the few types of silver acetylide, Ag2C2.AgNO3 -> Ag2C2.6AgNO3 if I do not remember completely wrong. What I am sure about is whether they have the same color of the crystals. I am also unsure if Ag2C2 excites without double salt.

So it's most likely contaminants from the paper that has created discoloration, and not another kind of double salt ..?

Just another little thing, is it possible to carbonated tetra amine copper nitrate (TACN) with acetylene? If one can get something like tetra amine copper carbide? If so would it be stable, and could it be used as a primery?
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[*] posted on 1-4-2016 at 04:45
Cu2C2 (?)


Yes, use solution from TACN reaction is possible. Respectively: 1g TACN is dissolved in 20 - 40 g NH4OH 10-25% in aq + 1 g solid piece of calcium carbide was put into a jar with a solution. Reaction at 30 Celsius running slow and stabile (solid one piece carbide). In the glass are precipitated cuprous acetylide, about 1 g. It is necessary to dissolve all carbides, of course. The solution was filtered. Black very fine powder (dark red) is filtered off under vacuum Buchner. Little damp, almost dry acetylide is stored under alcohol level. At one gram acetylide 30 grams of alcohol. The stability of this substance (?Cu2C2 + XY ??) will soon be examined on Laboratory of Liptakov.....:cool:....LL
Do I add, this is a very sensitive substance. And to all suggestions. When handling dry always work with a maximum of 1 gram. However, detonation has no large mechanical effects. Effects on human hearing at 1 gram (in bulk pile) detonation of 50 cm distance has not any consequences. HMTD under the same conditions has a devastating effect on hearing.

[Edited on 1-4-2016 by Laboratory of Liptakov]
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[*] posted on 1-4-2016 at 09:32


Quote: Originally posted by Laboratory of Liptakov  
Yes, use solution from TACN reaction is possible. Respectively: 1g TACN is dissolved in 20 - 40 g NH4OH 10-25% in aq + 1 g solid piece of calcium carbide was put into a jar with a solution. Reaction at 30 Celsius running slow and stabile (solid one piece carbide). In the glass are precipitated cuprous acetylide, about 1 g. It is necessary to dissolve all carbides, of course. The solution was filtered. Black very fine powder (dark red) is filtered off under vacuum Buchner. Little damp, almost dry acetylide is stored under alcohol level. At one gram acetylide 30 grams of alcohol. The stability of this substance (?Cu2C2 + XY ??) will soon be examined on Laboratory of Liptakov.....:cool:....LL
Do I add, this is a very sensitive substance. And to all suggestions. When handling dry always work with a maximum of 1 gram. However, detonation has no large mechanical effects. Effects on human hearing at 1 gram (in bulk pile) detonation of 50 cm distance has not any consequences. HMTD under the same conditions has a devastating effect on hearing.

[Edited on 1-4-2016 by Laboratory of Liptakov]

If you started from TACN (tetramine copper (II) nitrate) aka Cu(NH3)4(NO3)2, then you may get CuC2 (Cu(II) acetylide) instead of Cu2C2 (Cu(I) acetylide)...
CuC2 is more stable than Cu2C2 but also much less interesting...because weakly or not explosive at all.




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a nitrogen rich explosive
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[*] posted on 1-4-2016 at 10:04


Speaking of tetramines...

I just synthesised tetramine zinc permanganate through the reaction of KMnO4 with a solution of liquid ammonia and ZnO and ammonium chloride. It is unusable - it decomposes into manganese dioxide with the moisture in the air.

Does anyone know whether aluminium oxide would react in the same way (see reactivity series,) because copper is too stable to react and I am worried about the sensitivity of tetramine magnesium permanganate if it formed at all.

Any ideas?
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[*] posted on 1-4-2016 at 12:03
CuC2


Thanks Philou, very important answer about different between CuC2 and Cu2C2. But last attempts friction and impact test indicate characteristic some between both compounds. Anyway, it is sensitive material. Detonation is usually weak, with weakly sound and weak (nothing) mechanics effect on aluminium 0,1 mm surface plate. At amount 0,1g of Cu x C2. ...LL...:cool:
P.S. : During next a lot attempts is clearly, that Philou has truth in every in word. From TACN liquid, arises CuC2, with very weak properties for deminers using.

[Edited on 2-4-2016 by Laboratory of Liptakov]
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