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Author: Subject: Trying for Keto-RDX
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[*] posted on 8-1-2014 at 02:40
Trying for Keto-RDX


This is an old post of caterpillar on this topic for K-6:

"It is named "method A". 65 ml of mixed acid (HNO3+H2SO4, 50:50%). 10 gr of urea was slowly added into this mix with stirring and cooling. After addition mix was kept at 0 Celsius for 30 minutes. Then hexamine (10 gr) was added in small portions. Temperature was kept below zero- 0- 5 Celsius (this reaction is exothermic!). Then reaction mixture was allowed to warm up to 10 C and was stirred for 35 minutes. Finally reaction mix was poured into 400 gr of crushed ice. The white precipitate was filtered, washed and dried"

This is a way to make keto-RDX wich is 4% more powerful than HMX!! The chemicals looks really common too!

I just was thinking to replace the HNO3 with AN/H2SO4, so the only chemicals you are going to need are AN, H2SO4, hexamine and urea, and all those are really common chemicals!!

So what do you think, it is worth a try ?




[Edited on 8-1-2014 by underground]
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PHILOU Zrealone
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[*] posted on 8-1-2014 at 06:03


You could also go for AN, HDN, UN and H2SO4...



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[*] posted on 8-1-2014 at 06:15


I dont want HDN cause of its toxicity
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[*] posted on 8-1-2014 at 06:47


Quote: Originally posted by underground  
I dont want HDN cause of its toxicity

Then tell me what are you doing messing with N-N bonds?
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[*] posted on 8-1-2014 at 06:57


multi nitrogen bonds or compounds does not really mean toxic though, 5-Amino-Tetrazole have 4 nitrogen bonded together however its much much less toxic than Sodium azide.
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[*] posted on 8-1-2014 at 08:09


It is impossible to use just hexamine in case of HDN ?
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[*] posted on 8-1-2014 at 16:32


Using HDN has a few advantages.
Better yield, the exotherm is comparatively less and less WFNA will be required.
Do you know how toxic K6 is ?

Yes it is possible to use just Hexamine.

http://www.energetic-materials.org.cn/hnclen/ch/reader/creat...

[Edited on 9-1-2014 by Motherload]




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[*] posted on 8-1-2014 at 16:42


Quote: Originally posted by Motherload  
Using HDN has
Do you how toxic K6 is ?


I have to idea!! i guess it is not such, like RDX....

What it is a lot ? If it is i will abandoned it....
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[*] posted on 8-1-2014 at 17:23


Toxicity is varying yes, and so is the probabilities of an uptake. Working with highly toxic gases is bad cause a flare up could come on you without intention. Working with somewhat toxic solids, not so bad unless you are planning to make breakfast of it or licking it off your fingers like rib sauce. Aspirin in high doses is bad, but you don't live in fear of the medicine cabinet because you know you'll only eat one dose. Most of chemistry is toxic, which is just a sliding scale between therapeutic and nerve-gas-evil. If you want to work with interesting/practical chemicals, you may have to accept some level of risk. There is an LD50 you could look up for much of this to determine what accidental uptake is tolerable. By the way, should things go wrong (or right on some) NOx is evolved which is very bad, even though the final product of the nitration isn't so bad.
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[*] posted on 8-1-2014 at 17:35


If just k-6 toxicity should be like PETN,ETN or EGDN it is ok, but if it is like HDN and tetrazoles i will not go for that
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[*] posted on 9-1-2014 at 09:00


Quote: Originally posted by underground  
If just k-6 toxicity should be like PETN,ETN or EGDN it is ok, but if it is like HDN and tetrazoles i will not go for that


Tetrazole is only moderate toxic, is does not accumulate in your body, is quickly eliminated if ingested, unless you eat more than a handful of it. According to most MSDS on 5-Amino-1,2,3,4-tetrazole, it has only a Health hazard of level 3, which means it is similar to the water chlorine they put in the swimming pools! eg: Calcium hypochlorite.

Even if it has a level 4 hazard, such as Sodium Azide, it still have a LD:50 of around 1.5grams for a normal adult. So if you just dont eat it, and just wash your hands after handling, you will be fine. If you ingest some thought, Sodium azide will cause negative effect on your kidney according to some MSDS.

In EM, I care more about the sensitivity, because you can take care in handling, however sensitivity do not give you a chance.

[Edited on 9-1-2014 by DubaiAmateurRocketry]
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[*] posted on 9-1-2014 at 10:16


Quote: Originally posted by underground  
If just k-6 toxicity should be like PETN,ETN or EGDN it is ok, but if it is like HDN and tetrazoles i will not go for that


do you want to eat them?

some rubber gloves and maybe some breathing protection will work great !
especially when you know some compound is classified as "toxic" you will handle it with care...

example: pottasium cyanide is classified as "very toxic" (T+) and you need to eat around (afaik) <150mg> of it, to die...thats A LOT...

you blow shit up but act like some pussy because you feel unable to handle some (most of them aren't THAT) toxic stuff?

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[*] posted on 9-1-2014 at 12:17


I just do not want to play with those chemicals for just a hobby, it is my choice...
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[*] posted on 9-1-2014 at 15:30


Lincoln logs make a nice hobby too, nontoxic. I have some I could give you. 'course you could still choke on them if you ate them. :D What's the LD50 for choking?
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[*] posted on 9-1-2014 at 16:40


Quote: Originally posted by underground  
I dont want HDN cause of its toxicity


Who said this BS? How salt of relatively harmless hexamine (it is component of some usual medicine and addiction to spawn) could be more toxic that nitric acid??? If you are afraid of the last one, you should stay far away from explosives.




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[*] posted on 10-1-2014 at 02:30


I have seen almost everywere that when any conversation come into place about HDN, the first thing it is said is about the toxicity of HDN and the care that must be taken!
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[*] posted on 10-1-2014 at 04:14


By the way, i have seen a lots of conversations about HE but nowhere any preparation of them, except the used (NG,ETN EGDN...) For example K-6 looks easy to make from an experienced chemist but nobody ever try it!!
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[*] posted on 10-1-2014 at 05:49


Quote: Originally posted by underground  
I have seen almost everywere that when any conversation come into place about HDN, the first thing it is said is about the toxicity of HDN and the care that must be taken!


Aristotel claimed, that a fly has eight legs and this nonsense was repeated by so-called "scientists" for many years. I made HDN and pressed filtered precipitate to remove as much water as possible (later I made some RDX from it). Most likely, I used gloves. I did not eat it nor inhale it, so I cannot say, if this compound is really toxic. But i do not think so.




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[*] posted on 10-1-2014 at 06:19


Ok... when i am going to have the necessary safety equipment, i will give it a try. I will give it a try first with just hexamine to see what happens... Also i am planning to use AN in case of HNO3, i guess it will work. We will see...
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[*] posted on 10-1-2014 at 06:22


How can ı separate hexogen from octogen ? I have just acetone as a solvent
Hexogen more soluble in acetone thus after hexogen dissolved in acetone ı filter acetone from insoluble octogen then can precipitate it ?????
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[*] posted on 10-1-2014 at 13:51


Quote: Originally posted by underground  
Ok... when i am going to have the necessary safety equipment, i will give it a try. I will give it a try first with just hexamine to see what happens... Also i am planning to use AN in case of HNO3, i guess it will work. We will see...


According to original article, mixed acid must be strong enough to insert two nitro-groups into urea. This might be a problem. I'd like to test this method myself, but currently I have no reagents at all- only few gr of KMnO4 and half of kilo of NaHCO3 (to say nothing about NaCl). Mixed acid can be prepared, using dry Ca(NO3)2 and sulfuric acid. During reaction, CaSO4 extracts some water from acid.




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[*] posted on 10-1-2014 at 21:45


I don't know how well Ca(NO3)2 will react with H2SO4.
Theoretically .... React the 2 and decant/filter of WFNA leaving behind CaSO4.
You will have to completely dry and dehydrate the Ca(NO3)2 from the Di hydrate.

From what I have read from others experiences ..... It turns into a thick viscous slurry. Kinda like plaster for arm casts etc.
The above works with Ba(NO3)2

NH4NO3 is probably best for making WFNA in situ.




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[*] posted on 11-1-2014 at 01:00


Quote: Originally posted by Motherload  
I don't know how well Ca(NO3)2 will react with H2SO4.
Theoretically .... React the 2 and decant/filter of WFNA leaving behind CaSO4.
You will have to completely dry and dehydrate the Ca(NO3)2 from the Di hydrate.

From what I have read from others experiences ..... It turns into a thick viscous slurry. Kinda like plaster for arm casts etc.
The above works with Ba(NO3)2

NH4NO3 is probably best for making WFNA in situ.


Ca(NO3)2 is a tetrahydrate normally. Put it onto frying pan and heat. It boils, than converts into solid mass. if you want to get WFNA in that way, you'll surely get slurry. But if you want to get mixed acid (usual mix contents 40 % of nitric acid and 60 % of sulfuric one, in this particular case 50:50) you'll get slurry at the bottom of a reaction vessel and nice transparent layer above it. Decant and go ahead. Vacuum filtering will give you more mixed acid, if you do not want to waste reagents. Warning: do not use powder of Ca(NO3)2! it must be smashed to grains, but not to dust. 3-4 mm in diameter. Reaction between them and sulfuric acid goes slowly, I usually waited for day and night. It is useful to turn reaction vessel once in an hour upside down. I do not try to say, that it is the best choice in any event. I used this method, when I wanted to make NC or NG. But for preparation of TNP KNO3 (or NaNO3) is a better choice.




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[*] posted on 11-1-2014 at 01:02


Quote: Originally posted by Motherload  
I don't know how well Ca(NO3)2 will react with H2SO4.
Theoretically .... React the 2 and decant/filter of WFNA leaving behind CaSO4.
You will have to completely dry and dehydrate the Ca(NO3)2 from the Di hydrate.

From what I have read from others experiences ..... It turns into a thick viscous slurry. Kinda like plaster for arm casts etc.
The above works with Ba(NO3)2

NH4NO3 is probably best for making WFNA in situ.


Ca(NO3)2 is a tetrahydrate normally. Put it onto frying pan and heat. It boils, than converts into solid mass. if you want to get WFNA in that way, you'll surely get slurry. But if you want to get mixed acid (usual mix contents 40 % of nitric acid and 60 % of sulfuric one, in this particular case 50:50) you'll get slurry at the bottom of a reaction vessel and nice transparent layer above it. Decant and go ahead. Vacuum filtering will give you more mixed acid, if you do not want to waste reagents. Warning: do not use powder of Ca(NO3)2! it must be smashed to grains, but not to dust. 3-4 mm in diameter. Reaction between them and sulfuric acid goes slowly, I usually waited for day and night. It is useful to turn reaction vessel once in an hour upside down. I do not try to say, that it is the best choice in any event. I used this method, when I wanted to make NC or NG. But for preparation of TNP KNO3 (or NaNO3) is a better choice.




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[*] posted on 11-1-2014 at 01:02


That i was thinking also, dry AN for replacement of WFNA. Just place all chemicals into the desiccator bag and let them dry for 1-2 days. Caterpillar, it would be fine to give it a try, and not only you, but anyone who can. Maybe we will achieve something wonderful right here.


Also some calculations must be done cause the mixed acid is given on mls, we have to convert the mls to grams, and replace the moles of HNO3 with a nitrate salt...

[Edited on 11-1-2014 by underground]
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