JeffreyScovil
Harmless
Posts: 1
Registered: 25-1-2014
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Staying Safe on this Subforum
(This applies mostly to American users, but some tips are just good common sense for everybody).
This board has a notoriously high turnover rate. Some of us move on to other areas of chemistry, others get bored, still others become unable to
participate due to family or financial issues, or moving somewhere too crowded to practice their hobby.
Then there are those who injure themselves or are arrested.
For avoiding injuries, there is a great deal of safety information already available on these boards. For not being arrested, not so much.
Now, if you are intending to cause harm or damage people or property with explosives, we're all rooting for you to be caught before ruining everything
for the rest of us. But unlike model rocket or firearm enthusiasts, we are not given the benefit of the doubt when it comes to responsible use of our
hobby.
According to the United States Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives, it is illegal at the federal level merely to manufacture
explosives without a license, regardless of whether you are making them on your own property and for your personal use. If you store them, you will
probably be nailed for storage outside a licensed magazine, plus relevant state laws on that, in addition to the manufacturing charge at the federal
level and possibly state level.
Nitrocellulose and picric acid are the exceptions for federal (but not always state or county) laws; Just keep those guys super moist (30% water by
mass).
Here are a few other common sense tips:
**Don't post videos of explosions, devices, or syntheses on YouTube, or photos of same on Photobucket, imgur, Imageshack, etc. Remove the location
data with an external application, then upload the picture or video file to the https version of sciencemadness.org directly, preferably via proxy.
**Keep all correspondence with other users limited to the PM function of sciencemadness.org. Keep your email address to yourself.
**Do not respond to PMs asking for clarifications on explosive or explosive precursor syntheses, etc., other than to instruct them in the use of the
search function (though try not to be rude about it). Questions about syntheses or properties should be posted in the relevant thread.
**If you receive a PM from someone asking you to purchase explosive chemicals or explosive precursors on their behalf, or for directions to
over-the-counter sources of explosive precursors, ignore them. Such questions go in the Reagent and Apparatus Acquisition section of the board.
|
|
|
Jmap science
Yet another ID of SimpleChemist-238
Posts: 40
Registered: 19-10-2013
Location: Florida
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
good rules, its sad how the media makes us look like a threat. What if we were to raise public awareness.
|
|
|
Bert
Super Administrator
Posts: 2821
Registered: 12-3-2004
Member Is Offline
Mood: " I think we are all going to die. I think that love is an illusion. We are flawed, my darling".
|
|
Quote: Originally posted by JeffreyScovil  |
According to the United States Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives, it is illegal at the federal level merely to manufacture
explosives without a license, regardless of whether you are making them on your own property and for your personal use.
|
I would like to see a published source for that statement.
Here is a quote from a page currently part of the BATFE web site:
http://www.atf.gov/explosives/how-to/binary-explosives.html
| Quote: |
Persons manufacturing explosives for their own personal, non-business use only (e.g., personal target practice) are not required to have a Federal
explosives license or permit
|
And another, specific to fireworks:
http://www.atf.gov/explosives/how-to/fireworks-safety-and-se...
| Quote: |
You may manufacture display fireworks for personal use at your property without obtaining a Federal explosives license or permit (a manufacturer’s
license is needed only by persons engaged in the business of manufacturing fireworks for sale, distribution, or other commercial purpose).
|
I certainly do agree that the storage and transportation issues makes unlicensed manufacture for personal use difficult to do legaly.
I also am quite aware that anyone placing online photo or video documentation of themselves breaking the law is an idiot, and the time & GPS
stamping features of many recording devices are absolute heaven for a clued in prosecution.
[Edited on 25-1-2014 by Bert]
Rapopart’s Rules for critical commentary:
1. Attempt to re-express your target’s position so clearly, vividly and fairly that your target says: “Thanks, I wish I’d thought of putting it
that way.”
2. List any points of agreement (especially if they are not matters of general or widespread agreement).
3. Mention anything you have learned from your target.
4. Only then are you permitted to say so much as a word of rebuttal or criticism.
Anatol Rapoport was a Russian-born American mathematical psychologist (1911-2007).
|
|
|
The_Davster
A pnictogen
Posts: 2861
Registered: 18-11-2003
Member Is Offline
Mood: .
|
|
Canada :
http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/regulations/C.R.C.,_c._59...
34. A person may, for the purpose of laboratory chemical experiment and not for practical use or sale, make a small quantity of explosive in a place
that is not a licensed factory if reasonable precautions are observed to prevent injury to persons or damage to property and if the provisions of the
Act and these Regulations are observed as far as they are otherwise applicable.
|
|
|
roXefeller
Hazard to Others
Posts: 463
Registered: 9-9-2013
Location: 13 Colonies
Member Is Offline
Mood: 220 221 whatever it takes
|
|
To add to Bert, the legality of this manufacture depends to an extent on the final application. Small arms were given some exception to the
manufacture regulations. The definition of manufacture is given as “Manufacturer” means any person engaged in the business of manufacturing
explosive materials for purposes of sale or distribution or for his own use. (S1102 Title 18 Ch40 841(h)). And 842(a)(1) says its illegal without
permit, excepting small arms ammunition and components thereof (845(a)(4)). This is also echoed in 27 CFR 555.2.
[Edited on 26-1-2014 by roXefeller]
|
|
|
bfesser
|
Thread Split
26-1-2014 at 07:22 |
Semiexpyrokid
Harmless
Posts: 2
Registered: 17-8-2015
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
One thing that strikes me as obvious (Someone HAS to have pointed this out -- if I have a valid point -- and if so please forgive me for not seeing
it).
If you can stay legal by using a binary explosive mixture, and y only, "combining them at the time of use", it seems that since you can't "use" the
final product instantly, then might you be converting between committing a felony for a week (say LOL), to only being a non-convicted felon for 10
minutes (say LOL)? :-) For Tannerite you still have to set up the target and shoot it. ONLY THEN HAS IT BEEN USED! LOL. Actually I'm serious here,
99% because I'm just curious, as if everyone's doing it, it's like being in a school of fish with a shark. Plus, I'd avoid being caught anyway,
still...
I'm just talking legality. With the Tannerite mixture, safety isn't a big driver, of course with some mixtures, the safety gain from the method
dwarfs any legal trivia questions.LOL
|
|
|
aga
Forum Drunkard
Posts: 7030
Registered: 25-3-2014
Member Is Offline
|
|
You forgot to say "hi. I've been lurking on this forum for some time" in between the LOLs.
|
|
|
gdflp
Super Moderator
Posts: 1320
Registered: 14-2-2014
Location: NY, USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: Staring at code
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by JeffreyScovil |
**Do not respond to PMs asking for clarifications on explosive or explosive precursor syntheses, etc., other than to instruct them in the use of the
search function (though try not to be rude about it). Questions about syntheses or properties should be posted in the relevant thread.
|
What's the harm in this? Since when is information illegal in the United States? As long as you're not
assisting something obviously illegal, I see no reason why you could break the law by providing theoretical information, no matter the subject.
| Quote: Originally posted by aga | | You forgot to say "hi. I've been lurking on this forum for some time" in between the LOLs. |
Don't get touchy
aga. Just because the hillbillies(No offense Zombie ) at the other forum were
sticklers doesn't mean you have to be as well
|
|
|
Hawkguy
Hazard to Others
Posts: 326
Registered: 10-10-2014
Location: British Columbia (Canada eh!)
Member Is Offline
Mood: Body is Ready
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by The_Davster | Canada :
http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/regulations/C.R.C.,_c._59...
34. A person may, for the purpose of laboratory chemical experiment and not for practical use or sale, make a small quantity of explosive in a place
that is not a licensed factory if reasonable precautions are observed to prevent injury to persons or damage to property and if the provisions of the
Act and these Regulations are observed as far as they are otherwise applicable. |
doesn't it say that those
laws were repealed two years ago? EDIT: Never mind thats only a bit. Looks like its still good.
[Edited on 17-8-2015 by Hawkguy]
|
|
|
aga
Forum Drunkard
Posts: 7030
Registered: 25-3-2014
Member Is Offline
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by Hawkguy | | 34. A person may, for the purpose of laboratory chemical experiment and not for practical use or sale, make a small quantity |
Those two parts need specific definition, or the law applies in a Blanket fasion : 'not for practical use' and 'small quantity'.
|
|
|
Hawkguy
Hazard to Others
Posts: 326
Registered: 10-10-2014
Location: British Columbia (Canada eh!)
Member Is Offline
Mood: Body is Ready
|
|
Hmm it looks like that's not really a loophole, as other stuff would convict a would be pyrotechnic chemist as well.
|
|
|
KesterDraconis
Hazard to Self
Posts: 78
Registered: 27-3-2015
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
So let me ask this, if I own a cartridge that uses double base powder to fire a bullet am I a felon? I technically am in possession of, and store and
transport, without a permit, nitroglycerin. Similarly, if I own nitroglycerin pills for my heart issues, am I a felon? In that form its certainly not
going to explode, but regardless of that Nitroglycerin is in fact an explosive material. If I own a cold pack or fertilizer containing any Ammonium
Nitrate, am I also a felon? Its an explosive material. If I own MEKP in a solution that has some sort of stabilizer in it, I have to ask again, am I a
felon?
There are probably laws around these things, little loopholes and nonsense that no ordinary citizen will ever have the time in their life to fully
read over and understand. The truth of the matter here is that such a case, any law that is so exhaustive that it is unreasonable for the ordinary
citizen to fully understand, is tyrannical.
What part of the plain and simple language of the constitution regarding the right to bear arms did the US citizenry fail to understand? Were they
simply scared till their minds left them? Were they, and are we, too obsessed with the cradling arm of government to simply stop and think?!
I simply wish to learn from and enjoy my hobby, but the questions raised regarding this raise larger questions that simply can't be answered. There is
simply no argument for the laws currently in place against us, and that is simply infuriating.
[Edited on 24-8-2015 by KesterDraconis]
|
|
|
franklyn
International Hazard
Posts: 3026
Registered: 30-5-2006
Location: Da Big Apple
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Some people just don't get it
But what do I know
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=62691
Techniques to Disrupt, Deviate and Seize Control of
an Internet Forum In case you wonder W T F ! is going on here
?
www.zerohedge.com/contributed/2012-10-28/cointelpro-techniques-dilution-misdirection-and-control-internet-forum https://web.archive.org/web/20120814124000/www.washingtonsblog.com/2012/08/the-15-rules-of-internet-disinformation.html
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
|
|
|
szuko03
Hazard to Others
Posts: 188
Registered: 3-4-2015
Location: USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
I think there are 2 main ways people get caught up in legal issues related to this
The first is as mentioned, thinking what they are doing is somehow cool or unique and that other people have some type of interest in what they are
doing. These are the types that make something easy that explodes easily and instantly think "omg this must go on youtube" my question is why? No one
cares that you made 5g of tatp and put it in a pen no one thinks thats cool except little kids who ask how to do it. Then theres the whole issue of
people "thinking" they are good or knowledgeable on something only to not really be and their belief they are leads them to not realize their mistakes
or below average approach.
I think this is the easiest thing to avoid. Just know that everyone has done what you are doing before, in regards to this subforum, so maybe posting
videos of you making tnt isnt a good idea especially since it wont get more views then the 10 other people who have videos up.
the second is random chance in a sense. You leave some hydrochloric acid in the window and you overly suspicious neighbors call the police thinking
they are helping the community. This is not as easy to avoid since some stuff is out of your control. If a delivery man comes marching up to have you
sign a package and sees you distilling something, will he call the cops thinking hes a good person?
otherwise the only thing you can really do is not do anything wrong. synthesis things in small batches and dont store them. Eventually a lot of us
move on to other parts of chemistry and energetics just serve as an attention getter grabbing new minds in for the ride. If someone came to my house
they would see appropriate label pyrochemicals unmixed and not in tubing and a heck of a lot of info on making fountains and other guides but i dont
have anything on flash powder those things they are too simple and boring to have how to guides on. Also i have all of my invoices for my purchases
with suppliers ect. It may not save me but couple all fo that with some formal training in chemistry maybe someone will go "he seems to keep this
whole thing professional" and maybe that thought will stop it from becoming some huge thing. But again nothing i keep is illegal by law.
[Edited on 25-8-2015 by szuko03]
Chemistry is a natural drive, not an interest.
|
|
|
chemrox
International Hazard
Posts: 2961
Registered: 18-1-2007
Location: UTM
Member Is Offline
Mood: LaGrangian
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by KesterDraconis | So let me ask this, if I own a cartridge that uses double base powder to fire a bullet am I a felon? I technically am in possession of, and store and
transport, without a permit, nitroglycerin. Similarly, if I own nitroglycerin pills for my heart issues, am I a felon? In that form its certainly not
going to explode, but regardless of that Nitroglycerin is in fact an explosive material. If I own a cold pack or fertilizer containing any Ammonium
Nitrate, am I also a felon? Its an explosive material. If I own MEKP in a solution that has some sort of stabilizer in it, I have to ask again, am I a
felon?
There are probably laws around these things, little loopholes and nonsense that no ordinary citizen will ever have the time in their life to fully
read over and understand. The truth of the matter here is that such a case, any law that is so exhaustive that it is unreasonable for the ordinary
citizen to fully understand, is tyrannical.
What part of the plain and simple language of the constitution regarding the right to bear arms did the US citizenry fail to understand? Were they
simply scared till their minds left them? Were they, and are we, too obsessed with the cradling arm of government to simply stop and think?!
I simply wish to learn from and enjoy my hobby, but the questions raised regarding this raise larger questions that simply can't be answered. There is
simply no argument for the laws currently in place against us, and that is simply infuriating.
[Edited on 24-8-2015 by KesterDraconis] |
This deserves to be "retweeted." Or made a sticky
"When you let the dumbasses vote you end up with populism followed by autocracy and getting back is a bitch." Plato (sort of)
|
|
|
chemrox
International Hazard
Posts: 2961
Registered: 18-1-2007
Location: UTM
Member Is Offline
Mood: LaGrangian
|
|
I think the mods could be more helpful at times. I had a crazy stalking me here. I could only retire from the forum until he got distracted by his
life again. Be careful whom you "friend' in facebook. It's best to maintain separation between this forum and all others. There are people who flame
whenever they get on a forum of any kind. Be careful of them.
"When you let the dumbasses vote you end up with populism followed by autocracy and getting back is a bitch." Plato (sort of)
|
|
|
szuko03
Hazard to Others
Posts: 188
Registered: 3-4-2015
Location: USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by chemrox | | I think the mods could be more helpful at times. I had a crazy stalking me here. I could only retire from the forum until he got distracted by his
life again. Be careful whom you "friend' in facebook. It's best to maintain separation between this forum and all others. There are people who flame
whenever they get on a forum of any kind. Be careful of them. |
I agree with you though the same can be said about all forums online. I once had the same thing happen to me but I am a mod on the other forum but
that didnt mean i could just ban the dude we need to have a discussion. But the sad thing is it was all because i said "oh someday i will do
(something) for you!" just out of happiness and whatever but he like literally expected me to deliver on something crazy because i had jokingly said
it and he was only half there mentally and took it as 100% serious. And i got lucky he cant type to save his life and one of the things he said looked
like a direct threat so it was easy to ban him after that had he done it through PMs and not been so direct ti probably wouldnt have been so easy and
may have ruined the forum for me.
You definitely need to be careful who you meet and what you say
[Edited on 25-8-2015 by szuko03]
Chemistry is a natural drive, not an interest.
|
|
|
aga
Forum Drunkard
Posts: 7030
Registered: 25-3-2014
Member Is Offline
|
|
There is no absolute 'Safety' of any kind, ever.
If you have a Lab and want to Do Stuff you must make it as safe as you can, and that includes sheer common sense.
If you have your lab in your hallway, then obviously the delivery guy will see your stuff immediately.
If your lab has windows, Frost them so nobody can easily look inside.
If you wish to make explosives and drugs, well, you deserve to be caught and put in prison.
However, if you were to do that Elsewhere with no connection to yourself or your Home, then that'd be a lot Safer don't you think ?
Posting videos on utoob about how you made whacko-A-acid would also be plain stupid, same as 'How i blew up my car' videos.
Chemistry is a sensitive subject at the moment, however not as sensitive as a hobby involving the stockpiling of plutonium bought from Ebay for
example.
Staying out of trouble is all common sense : pose no threat, raise no suspicion, expect no reaction.
|
|
|
szuko03
Hazard to Others
Posts: 188
Registered: 3-4-2015
Location: USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by KesterDraconis | What part of the plain and simple language of the constitution regarding the right to bear arms did the US citizenry fail to understand? Were they
simply scared till their minds left them? Were they, and are we, too obsessed with the cradling arm of government to simply stop and think?!
I simply wish to learn from and enjoy my hobby, but the questions raised regarding this raise larger questions that simply can't be answered. There is
simply no argument for the laws currently in place against us, and that is simply infuriating.
[Edited on 24-8-2015 by KesterDraconis] |
The thing about this hobby as it relates to people in the US, sure we have a lot of things banned and whatever but we actually have it easy in regards
to this hobby. Ask someone from AU what happens if they buy a trineck flask? I am not trying to be mean or something but there really arent as many
red flags and issues pertaining to this hobby in the US. To act like we have it the worst is to have a very limited world view. Plus explosives dont
fall under the right to bare arms or shouldnt as there is way more room for error lol
Also your making a lot of judgments about it being all or nothing. You most likely wouldnt be a felon in any of the situations you mentioned due to
the amount of the compounds and their use. IF you are improvising weapons however as they can often be dangerous to those around you, you are probably
ok as long as its on your property and you arent being investigated for something already.
I am saying this as someone who has been through the system both educational and correctional with a brother in prison. Im not saying the world is
perfect but its not that bad it gets easier when your older too because you dont have that younger person up to no good thing lol
[Edited on 25-8-2015 by szuko03]
Chemistry is a natural drive, not an interest.
|
|
|
KesterDraconis
Hazard to Self
Posts: 78
Registered: 27-3-2015
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by szuko03 |
To act like we have it the worst is to have a very limited world view. Plus explosives dont fall under the right to bare arms or shouldnt as there is
way more room for error lol
Also your making a lot of judgments about it being all or nothing. You most likely wouldnt be a felon in any of the situations you mentioned due to
the amount of the compounds and their use. IF you are improvising weapons however as they can often be dangerous to those around you, you are probably
ok as long as its on your property and you arent being investigated for something already.
I am saying this as someone who has been through the system both educational and correctional with a brother in prison.
[Edited on 25-8-2015 by szuko03] |
I'm not saying I have it the worst, but that simple fact doesn't make it right. Explosives most definitely fall under the right to bear arms. The
founding fathers knew what power weaponry would eventually develop, but already they were witnessing the power of chemistry in cannons. Which, by the
way, fell under the right to bear arms. They assuredly knew who Guy Fawkes was, and what would have happened had his plan succeeded, yet they wrote
the 2nd Amendment anyway.
BTW this is what would have happened had Guy Fawkes succeeded. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZbvNIaC3gKM
Read the law of a few states, some states make the possession of explosives (without specifying quantity or state they are in) illegal, and that is
it. The result of lawyers without scientific understanding or advice deciding the laws. You are right however in most things being generally ok if its
on your property away from other people and the police aren't already investigating you for say, drug manufacturing.
|
|
|
szuko03
Hazard to Others
Posts: 188
Registered: 3-4-2015
Location: USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
So your saying someone who is 18 years of age, has no formal chemistry training/knowledge has the "right" to try to synthesis TNT in a residential
area? There is a huge difference between a cannon and an unstable molecule that reacts violently when exposed to stress in the simple fact you point a
cannon and shoot it.
I love chemistry and i love freedom but as far as i am concerned the scenario i stated is why its illegal. If you dont live in a residential area ie
the desert or maybe (and this is a big maybe) a farm like a commercial 100s of ache property where if you kill yourself and destroy a city block no
one will hear it.
I think in todays crowded society these types of regulations are needed. It prevents people who need to mature a bit and realize how dangerous stuff
is from hurting themselves before they can grow into a scientist. I think it should be easier to get "qualified" in amateur science so amateurs can
learn chemistry and become chemists who can do stuff at home but i dont think reading a forum or having someone post synthesis instructions means
anyone should be able to try. You dont read a forum on rock climbing and then immediately try to scale Everest.
I also want to restate these are my feelings on it and i know passions run hot in this area so i dont want you to take it the wrong way, especially if
i somehow made it seem like i was belittling you, my "doomsday" senario involves someone who wouldnt know about this forum because even just knowing
this forum puts you ahead 
[Edited on 26-8-2015 by szuko03]
Chemistry is a natural drive, not an interest.
|
|
|
aga
Forum Drunkard
Posts: 7030
Registered: 25-3-2014
Member Is Offline
|
|
szuko03 the voice of Reason.
I agree with all of that.
People talking about Rights and the 'Constitution' are firstly under some illusion that it means anything or is enforced (or even protected) and use
that excuse like a petulant child would say 'I want a doughnut cos my sister got one'.
Young and ignorant, old and stupid, intelligent and informed, there is no Case where an individual should posess a loaded Assault Rifle, Rocket
Propelled Grenade or 1kg of TNT in an apartment block, for any reason other than personal protection.
If they are Needed for personal protection then the Rule of Law has ceased to exist where they live, erasing any such ideas pertaining to Law or
Rights.
[Edited on 26-8-2015 by aga]
|
|
|
KesterDraconis
Hazard to Self
Posts: 78
Registered: 27-3-2015
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Reason you say? Is following the principle of a matter to its logical end really unreasonable?
| Quote: |
then the Rule of Law has ceased to exist where they live
|
Which is a very potential scenario, and when that happens, its the guy without a way to defend himself, to enforce the inalienable rights he
possesses, that becomes a victim. Its not about imminent or immediate problems, its about that old motto "Be prepared."
@szuko03 When you say this,
"So your saying someone who is 18 years of age, has no formal chemistry training/knowledge has the "right" to try to synthesis TNT in a residential
area?"
All I have to say is it depends on the amount and intent. I never said people have the right to endanger others frivolously (Similarly, I think you
can own a rifle, you just can't wave it around at people for fun). Explosives are still weapons that you can direct, and its only after a certain
point (which is rather large) that they legitimately cannot be directed at a specific attacker (as nuclear or biological weapons are), and you don't
have a right to them.
E.g. Many kilograms of TATP in your apartment building. This would be ok by me if it were out in the countryside and its just you (eh, incredibly
stupid, but its your own life), but right next to your neighbor is needlessly endangering his life.
P.S. Oh, and Aga, 1 kg of TNT is end of the world stuff, but this is ok as long as we have a nice video telling people to be safe? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7xFXxwZMNA
I mean, calculate the force behind cars for a moment, look up how much kinetic energy is involved in the movement of a car on the interstate.
[Edited on 26-8-2015 by KesterDraconis]
[Edited on 26-8-2015 by KesterDraconis]
|
|
|
aga
Forum Drunkard
Posts: 7030
Registered: 25-3-2014
Member Is Offline
|
|
Cars are a good example of how we accept a serious tangible risk of Killing others for the sake of convenience (all Safety features in a car protect
the occupants, not pedestrians).
Death by Cars is accepted by most, yet the ownership of 1kg of TNT in a cardboard box at home in a 9 story apartment block is not acceptable.
Subtle distinctions really, as death results from both, more by cars.
Ownership of Guns by urban dwellers is not acceptable : there is no need for a gun in an apartment block in a civilised country, well protected by
it's armed forces, law enforcement and intelligence agencies.
If there is a real need for a gun, well, the fabric of civilisation is broken in that place, as a fundamental Right must be to Live without fear of
being killed by your neighbours every day.
Rural dwellers need to cull trespassers (campers) from the cities once in a while to keep the numbers down so they actually do have a justifiable case
to have a gun and ammo at home.
|
|
|
![[*]](images/xpblue/default_icon.gif){kind=icon}
