| Pages:
1
2 |
The Volatile Chemist
International Hazard
Posts: 1981
Registered: 22-3-2014
Location: 'Stil' in the lab...
Member Is Offline
Mood: Copious
|
|
Cupric Ammonium Acetate
I have been attempting to produce a Cupric Ammonium compound for quite some time. Unfortunately, I do not have any ammonia, which is a big limiting
factor. I do, though, have ferric Ammonium Sulfate (Tetra-amine Iron form, not the double salt). One can easily generate Cupric Ammonium Sulfate by
mixing Copper sulfate and Ferric ammonium sulfate, which yields Cupric Ammonium Sulfate and Iron Sulfate. These two chemicals are hard to separate
from one-another. In puzzling over the problem, I produced Ferric Ammonium Acetate (Pure, water soluble). Upon being mixed with copper carbonate
(Insoluble), a yellow-green hard-to-explain colored insoluble chemical was formed, along with a soluble one. I presumed this insoluble chemical was
Cupric Ammonium Carbonate, and the one in solution was ferric acetate. After separating out the insoluble chemical, I reacted it with vinegar to form
what I thought was Cupric Ammonium Acetate. This chemical (In solution) was very dark, emerald green. Could someone help me figure out if my
assumptions are correct, or if you have Cupric Ammonium Sulfate, react it with baking soda, then vinegar to see if it forms an emerald green chemical?
Thanks!
Nathan
|
|
|
DraconicAcid
International Hazard
Posts: 4278
Registered: 1-2-2013
Location: The tiniest college campus ever....
Member Is Offline
Mood: Semi-victorious.
|
|
Ferric ammonium sulphate is a double salt- iron does not form a complex with ammonia.
Please remember: "Filtrate" is not a verb.
Write up your lab reports the way your instructor wants them, not the way your ex-instructor wants them.
|
|
|
sasan
Hazard to Self
Posts: 92
Registered: 22-2-2014
Location: TEHRAN / IRAN
Member Is Offline
Mood: Radiative
|
|
Draconic acid is right,iron hydroxide precipitated in presence of ammonia in solution
I'm not sure but maybe treating the solution of ammonium acetate and copper acetate produces the cupric ammonium acetate followed by crystalization of
this double salt and the color is blue like cupric acetate but a little lighter not emerald green,try this nathan,it will work,if you have ammonium
acetate and cupric acetate
|
|
|
blogfast25
International Hazard
Posts: 10562
Registered: 3-2-2008
Location: Neverland
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
While it is true that ferric alum is a double salt and not a complex, the test/definition you use is too broad. Several real complexes are destroyed
by ammonia or NaOH: e.g. trisoxalatoferrate (III), hexachororostannates, Cr(III) coordination complexes, the list goes on. It depends on the stability
constant of the complex and the solubility product of the hydroxide, whether or not the hydroxide will precipitate.
|
|
|
The Volatile Chemist
International Hazard
Posts: 1981
Registered: 22-3-2014
Location: 'Stil' in the lab...
Member Is Offline
Mood: Copious
|
|
No, no. I'm NOT talking about the double salt, which is Fe(SO4) (NH4)2 SO4 * 6H2O and
classically called Ferrous Ammonium Sulfate. I AM talking about FeNH4(SO4)2*12H2O which
was classically called Ferric Ammonium Sulfate. The first is just a double salt, like Chevreul's Salt. The second has two Anions, the Iron and the
ammonia. This is commonplace in the more complex side of inorganic chemistry. One can find a Wikipedia article on Cupric ammonium
sulfate, under the name of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetraamminecopper%28II%29_sulfa...
I'm pretty sure this article is what I'm talking about, but it's the sulfate and not the acetate. The whole Idea of multiple anions is also shown in
the compound Cobalt Potassium Ferricyanide. I may be wrong about that article actually having the same anion or not.
|
|
|
DraconicAcid
International Hazard
Posts: 4278
Registered: 1-2-2013
Location: The tiniest college campus ever....
Member Is Offline
Mood: Semi-victorious.
|
|
Quote: Originally posted by The Volatile Chemist  |
No, no. I'm NOT talking about the double salt, which is Fe(SO4) (NH4)2 SO4 * 6H2O and
classically called Ferrous Ammonium Sulfate. I AM talking about FeNH4(SO4)2*12H2O which
was classically called Ferric Ammonium Sulfate. The first is just a double salt, like Chevreul's Salt. The second has two Anions, the Iron and the
ammonia. |
No, actually, you don't know what you are talking about. They are both double salts. In both cases, the ammonium is a cation; the difference between
the two is the oxidation state of the iron- in the first, it's +2, so you need two ammonium ions to balance the two sulphates. In the second, it's
+3, so you only nee one ammonium to balance the two sulphates. It's an alum- still a double salt.
| Quote: | This is commonplace in the more complex side of inorganic chemistry. One can find a Wikipedia article on Cupric ammonium sulfate,
under the name of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetraamminecopper%28II%29_sulfa...
I'm pretty sure this article is what I'm talking about, but it's the sulfate and not the acetate. The whole Idea of multiple anions is also shown in
the compound Cobalt Potassium Ferricyanide. I may be wrong about that article actually having the same anion or not. |
Tetramminecopper sulphate has ammonia coordinated to the copper; this is not the same as cupric ammonium sulphate, which would be a double salt.
ETA: This: http://scripts.iucr.org/cgi-bin/paper?a05104
[Edited on 23-3-2014 by DraconicAcid]
Please remember: "Filtrate" is not a verb.
Write up your lab reports the way your instructor wants them, not the way your ex-instructor wants them.
|
|
|
The Volatile Chemist
International Hazard
Posts: 1981
Registered: 22-3-2014
Location: 'Stil' in the lab...
Member Is Offline
Mood: Copious
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by DraconicAcid | | Quote: Originally posted by The Volatile Chemist |
No, no. I'm NOT talking about the double salt, which is Fe(SO4) (NH4)2 SO4 * 6H2O and
classically called Ferrous Ammonium Sulfate. I AM talking about FeNH4(SO4)2*12H2O which
was classically called Ferric Ammonium Sulfate. The first is just a double salt, like Chevreul's Salt. The second has two Anions, the Iron and the
ammonia. |
No, actually, you don't know what you are talking about. They are both double salts. In both cases, the ammonium is a cation; the difference between
the two is the oxidation state of the iron- in the first, it's +2, so you need two ammonium ions to balance the two sulphates. In the second, it's
+3, so you only nee one ammonium to balance the two sulphates. It's an alum- still a double salt.
| Quote: | This is commonplace in the more complex side of inorganic chemistry. One can find a Wikipedia article on Cupric ammonium sulfate,
under the name of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetraamminecopper%28II%29_sulfa...
I'm pretty sure this article is what I'm talking about, but it's the sulfate and not the acetate. The whole Idea of multiple anions is also shown in
the compound Cobalt Potassium Ferricyanide. I may be wrong about that article actually having the same anion or not. |
Tetramminecopper sulphate has ammonia coordinated to the copper; this is not the same as cupric ammonium sulphate, which would be a double salt.
ETA: This: http://scripts.iucr.org/cgi-bin/paper?a05104
[Edited on 23-3-2014 by DraconicAcid] |
Well, I didn't say I DID know what I was talking about.  (I'm 14, and a freshman,
so even though I'm ahead 1 year in science, I still take chemistry next year) I don't profess myself to be smart on the subject, you act like I was
being haughty.
Anyways, Cu(NH4)2(SO4)2 was what i was attempting to describe. (I made a minor mistake, reversing cation
and anion...) So if this sulfate that you linked to exists, is It possible that by the procedure I described above I produced
Cu(NH4)2(CH3CO2)4 , cupric ammonium acetate? I apologize if I came off as a know-it-all.
[Edited on 3-24-2014 by The Volatile Chemist]
|
|
|
rcfunker
Harmless
Posts: 5
Registered: 23-3-2014
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Is that possible not to have ammonia?
You can actually obtain ammonia through various ways.. such as reduction of nitrous acid with hydrogen, i think...Anyway perhaps you could try using
in your experiments some Cr as a ligant but if you say that your result should be Cupric Ammonium, then is another story...
| Quote: Originally posted by The Volatile Chemist | I have been attempting to produce a Cupric Ammonium compound for quite some time. Unfortunately, I do not have any ammonia, which is a big limiting
factor. I do, though, have ferric Ammonium Sulfate (Tetra-amine Iron form, not the double salt). One can easily generate Cupric Ammonium Sulfate by
mixing Copper sulfate and Ferric ammonium sulfate, which yields Cupric Ammonium Sulfate and Iron Sulfate. These two chemicals are hard to separate
from one-another. In puzzling over the problem, I produced Ferric Ammonium Acetate (Pure, water soluble). Upon being mixed with copper carbonate
(Insoluble), a yellow-green hard-to-explain colored insoluble chemical was formed, along with a soluble one. I presumed this insoluble chemical was
Cupric Ammonium Carbonate, and the one in solution was ferric acetate. After separating out the insoluble chemical, I reacted it with vinegar to form
what I thought was Cupric Ammonium Acetate. This chemical (In solution) was very dark, emerald green. Could someone help me figure out if my
assumptions are correct, or if you have Cupric Ammonium Sulfate, react it with baking soda, then vinegar to see if it forms an emerald green chemical?
Thanks!
Nathan |
|
|
|
DraconicAcid
International Hazard
Posts: 4278
Registered: 1-2-2013
Location: The tiniest college campus ever....
Member Is Offline
Mood: Semi-victorious.
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by The Volatile Chemist |
Anyways, Cu(NH4)2(SO4)2 was what i was attempting to describe. (I made a minor mistake, reversing cation
and anion...) So if this sulfate that you linked to exists, is It possible that by the procedure I described above I produced
Cu(NH4)2(CH3CO2)4 , cupric ammonium acetate? |
I doubt it. I'm not sure that such an acetate double salt exists, and it if did, you'd want to try making it by crystallizing ammonium acetate and
copper(II) acetate together. Having iron in there simply invites making mixtures. If you had ammonium copper(II) sulphate, and dissolved it in
water, then added a carbonate source, you would not be likely to get ammonium copper(II) carbonate- the ammonium ions are not attached to the copper
ion in any way, and are only associated with them in the solid phase. You'd probably just get the usual hydrated/basic copper(II) carbonate.
ETA: If you want to make the double salt, you should be able to get ammonia from a grocery store (it's a cleaner), neutralize it with sulphuric acid,
and let the water evaporate. That will give you ammonium sulphate that you can add to copper(II) sulphate (in solution, naturally), to allow crystals
of the double salt to form.
[Edited on 24-3-2014 by DraconicAcid]
Please remember: "Filtrate" is not a verb.
Write up your lab reports the way your instructor wants them, not the way your ex-instructor wants them.
|
|
|
The Volatile Chemist
International Hazard
Posts: 1981
Registered: 22-3-2014
Location: 'Stil' in the lab...
Member Is Offline
Mood: Copious
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by DraconicAcid | | Quote: Originally posted by The Volatile Chemist |
Anyways, Cu(NH4)2(SO4)2 was what i was attempting to describe. (I made a minor mistake, reversing cation
and anion...) So if this sulfate that you linked to exists, is It possible that by the procedure I described above I produced
Cu(NH4)2(CH3CO2)4 , cupric ammonium acetate? |
I doubt it. I'm not sure that such an acetate double salt exists, and it if did, you'd want to try making it by crystallizing ammonium acetate and
copper(II) acetate together. Having iron in there simply invites making mixtures. If you had ammonium copper(II) sulphate, and dissolved it in
water, then added a carbonate source, you would not be likely to get ammonium copper(II) carbonate- the ammonium ions are not attached to the copper
ion in any way, and are only associated with them in the solid phase. You'd probably just get the usual hydrated/basic copper(II) carbonate.
ETA: If you want to make the double salt, you should be able to get ammonia from a grocery store (it's a cleaner), neutralize it with sulphuric acid,
and let the water evaporate. That will give you ammonium sulphate that you can add to copper(II) sulphate (in solution, naturally), to allow crystals
of the double salt to form.
[Edited on 24-3-2014 by DraconicAcid] |
When I made what I thought to be the carbonate, it did seem to be greenish, but also yellow. I'll try what you suggested in regards to the ammonia.
Thanks!
Nathan
|
|
|
The Volatile Chemist
International Hazard
Posts: 1981
Registered: 22-3-2014
Location: 'Stil' in the lab...
Member Is Offline
Mood: Copious
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by DraconicAcid | | Quote: Originally posted by The Volatile Chemist |
Anyways, Cu(NH4)2(SO4)2 was what i was attempting to describe. (I made a minor mistake, reversing cation
and anion...) So if this sulfate that you linked to exists, is It possible that by the procedure I described above I produced
Cu(NH4)2(CH3CO2)4 , cupric ammonium acetate? |
I doubt it. I'm not sure that such an acetate double salt exists, and it if did, you'd want to try making it by crystallizing ammonium acetate and
copper(II) acetate together. Having iron in there simply invites making mixtures. If you had ammonium copper(II) sulphate, and dissolved it in
water, then added a carbonate source, you would not be likely to get ammonium copper(II) carbonate- the ammonium ions are not attached to the copper
ion in any way, and are only associated with them in the solid phase. You'd probably just get the usual hydrated/basic copper(II) carbonate.
ETA: If you want to make the double salt, you should be able to get ammonia from a grocery store (it's a cleaner), neutralize it with sulphuric acid,
and let the water evaporate. That will give you ammonium sulphate that you can add to copper(II) sulphate (in solution, naturally), to allow crystals
of the double salt to form.
[Edited on 24-3-2014 by DraconicAcid] |
But since a Ferric Ammonium Acetate exists (I've produced it; it has different coloration than Ferric acetate), shouldn't Cupric Ammonium acetate
exist?
|
|
|
DraconicAcid
International Hazard
Posts: 4278
Registered: 1-2-2013
Location: The tiniest college campus ever....
Member Is Offline
Mood: Semi-victorious.
|
|
No. There are many compounds of iron that do not have a copper analogue, and vice versa. FeCl3 is stable; CuCl3 is not. CuCl
is stable; FeCl is not.
There is a double salt with calcium; calcium copper(II) acetate can be made by dissolving 4 equivalents of calcium acetate and one of copper(II)
acetate in a minimum of water and allowing to evaporate (IIRC- I'll check a citation in the morning).
[Edited on 24-3-2014 by DraconicAcid]
Please remember: "Filtrate" is not a verb.
Write up your lab reports the way your instructor wants them, not the way your ex-instructor wants them.
|
|
|
The Volatile Chemist
International Hazard
Posts: 1981
Registered: 22-3-2014
Location: 'Stil' in the lab...
Member Is Offline
Mood: Copious
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by DraconicAcid |
No. There are many compounds of iron that do not have a copper analogue, and vice versa. FeCl3 is stable; CuCl3 is not. CuCl
is stable; FeCl is not.
There is a double salt with calcium; calcium copper(II) acetate can be made by dissolving 4 equivalents of calcium acetate and one of copper(II)
acetate in a minimum of water and allowing to evaporate (IIRC- I'll check a citation in the morning).
[Edited on 24-3-2014 by DraconicAcid] |
Huh....Ok, makes sense.
Wow, really??? Calcium copper(II) acetate.... Looks like I'll be having fun tomorrow! Oh yea, I ran my parents out of vinegar today...got a nice glass
vinegar bottle though...
Well, thanks for your assistance on the subject, and the tip on that calcium double salt!
Nathan
|
|
|
Texium
Administrator
Posts: 4508
Registered: 11-1-2014
Location: Salt Lake City
Member Is Offline
Mood: PhD candidate!
|
|
Yeah, yesterday I boiled down most of my family's vinegar supply to make more concentrated acetic acid.
I think I'll probably try this out too, next weekend!
|
|
|
The Volatile Chemist
International Hazard
Posts: 1981
Registered: 22-3-2014
Location: 'Stil' in the lab...
Member Is Offline
Mood: Copious
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by zts16 | Yeah, yesterday I boiled down most of my family's vinegar supply to make more concentrated acetic acid.
I think I'll probably try this out too, next weekend! |
Just yesterday after making a lot of acetates, I used the last drop. But the container is a great big glass one, thick enough to boil in, so it's a
partial win situation
|
|
|
AJKOER
Radically Dubious
Posts: 3026
Registered: 7-5-2011
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
I believe I have prepared Copper ammonium sulfate in the following manner:
1. First, prepare Copper ammonium hydroxide by adding copper to household ammonia and H2O2. In 12 hours you should have an aqua blue solution. There
can be a significant gas release from the oxidation of the aqueous ammonia with the H2O2.
2. Add MgSO4 to some distilled water and add to the Copper ammonium hydroxide solution.
3. Filter out the white Mg(OH)2 suspension. Done.
Some chemistry with cited references:
Cu + 4 NH3 + 1/2 O2 + H2O --> 2 [Cu(NH3)2]OH
2 [Cu(NH3)2]OH + 4 NH3 (aq) + 1/2 O2 + H2O --> 2 [Cu(NH3)4](OH)2
Cu + [Cu(NH3)4](OH)2 <---> 2 [Cu(NH3)2]OH
Upon adding MgSO4:
Cu(NH3)4](OH)2 + MgSO4 = Cu(NH3)4SO4 + Mg(OH)2 (s)
Note, some HNO2/NH4NO2 can apparently be formed as, however, a side product. Please review my cited reference "Kinetics and Mechanism of Copper
Dissolution In Aqueous Ammonia" fully available after signing on to ones Facebook account at http://www.academia.edu/292096/Kinetics_and_Mechanism_of_Cop...
Now, if NH4NO2/HNO2 is formed in concordance with the cited reference, within the first 1O minutes of the reaction, you can personally observed the
decomposition of any formed HNO2/NH4NO2 (well, at least if one uses cheap household ammonia which foams in this reaction and actually creates a foam
column as decomposition occurs). Caution, in a sealed vessel, eruption/spillage can occur.
[Edited on 26-3-2014 by AJKOER]
|
|
|
The Volatile Chemist
International Hazard
Posts: 1981
Registered: 22-3-2014
Location: 'Stil' in the lab...
Member Is Offline
Mood: Copious
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by AJKOER | I believe I have prepared Copper ammonium sulfate in the following manner:
1. First, prepare Copper ammonium hydroxide by adding copper to household ammonia and H2O2. In 12 hours you should have an aqua blue solution. There
can be a significant gas release from the oxidation of the aqueous ammonia with the H2O2.
2. Add MgSO4 to some distilled water and add to the Copper ammonium hydroxide solution.
3. Filter out the white Mg(OH)2 suspension. Done.
Some chemistry with cited references:
Cu + 4 NH3 + 1/2 O2 + H2O --> 2 [Cu(NH3)2]OH
2 [Cu(NH3)2]OH + 4 NH3 (aq) + 1/2 O2 + H2O --> 2 [Cu(NH3)4](OH)2
Cu + [Cu(NH3)4](OH)2 <---> 2 [Cu(NH3)2]OH
Upon adding MgSO4:
Cu(NH3)4](OH)2 + MgSO4 = Cu(NH3)4SO4 + Mg(OH)2 (s)
Note, some HNO2/NH4NO2 can apparently be formed as, however, a side product. Please review my cited reference "Kinetics and Mechanism of Copper
Dissolution In Aqueous Ammonia" fully available after signing on to ones Facebook account at http://www.academia.edu/292096/Kinetics_and_Mechanism_of_Cop...
Now, if NH4NO2/HNO2 is formed in concordance with the cited reference, within the first 1O minutes of the reaction, you can personally observed the
decomposition of any formed HNO2/NH4NO2 (well, at least if one uses cheap household ammonia which foams in this reaction and actually creates a foam
column as decomposition occurs). Caution, in a sealed vessel, eruption/spillage can occur.
[Edited on 26-3-2014 by AJKOER] |
Could you attempt reacting this with baking soda, filtering, and then reacting with acetic acid (Vinegar)? I want to see if you get the same compound
I got.
|
|
|
MrHomeScientist
International Hazard
Posts: 1806
Registered: 24-10-2010
Location: Flerovium
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Ask him to throw some bleach in there too and he'll be in heaven.
He's known around here for posting unworkable syntheses that he hasn't actually tried, so take his advice with a grain of salt. For instance, I don't
believe "copper ammonium hydroxide" exists. Do you mean the hexaaminecopper(II) complex ion? Are you sure addition of magnesium sulfate can break this
complex? Your reference is locked behind a registration screen, and I'm not going to register on some random website.
[Edited on 3-26-2014 by MrHomeScientist]
|
|
|
The Volatile Chemist
International Hazard
Posts: 1981
Registered: 22-3-2014
Location: 'Stil' in the lab...
Member Is Offline
Mood: Copious
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by MrHomeScientist | Ask him to throw some bleach in there too and he'll be in heaven.
He's known around here for posting unworkable syntheses that he hasn't actually tried, so take his advice with a grain of salt. For instance, I don't
believe "copper ammonium hydroxide" exists. Do you mean the hexaaminecopper(II) complex ion? Are you sure addition of magnesium sulfate can break this
complex? Your reference is locked behind a registration screen, and I'm not going to register on some random website.
[Edited on 3-26-2014 by MrHomeScientist] |
Well, thanks. I've given up on the Idea that this double salt I tried to make exists anyways.
(As always, MrHomeScientist coming to the rescue )
[Edited on 3-26-2014 by The Volatile Chemist]
|
|
|
AJKOER
Radically Dubious
Posts: 3026
Registered: 7-5-2011
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
I would prefer a cleaner path by substituting Magnesium acetate for Magnesium sulfate.
I would prepare Magnesium acetate by adding NaHCO3 to aqueous MgSO4. Heat to convert the soluble Mg(HCO3)2 to the insoluble MgCO3 and CO2 (a cool
reaction). Filter out the MgCO3 and add vinegar to create the acetate.
I believe this will work as I have created other Copper ammomium salts (than the sulfate) as well. There is actually a thread I created a while ago on
the preparation of Copper ammonium nitrate per the path above employing Mg(NO3)2 in place of MgSO4 in the Energetic forum.
The good part of my suggested preparation is that all the chemicals are readily available. The chemistry is also cool, orginal, advanced at times (per
my reference, for example, the chemistry/electrochemisty of the oxidation of Cu in O2 in ammonia was actually debated among reputed pundits for
decades), may be upsetting to others who have invested $ in expensive chemicals and/or equipment for a particular synthesis.
A word of caution in addition to the eruption issue, in my opinion and per Wiki, any NH4NO2 formed is quite poisonous, so avoid skin contact with the
solution during preparation.
[Edited on 27-3-2014 by AJKOER]
|
|
|
DraconicAcid
International Hazard
Posts: 4278
Registered: 1-2-2013
Location: The tiniest college campus ever....
Member Is Offline
Mood: Semi-victorious.
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by AJKOER | I would prefer a cleaner path by substituting Magnesium acetate for Magnesium sulfate.
I would prepare Magnesium acetate by adding NaHCO3 to aqueous MgSO4. Heat to convert the soluble Mg(HCO3)2 to the insoluble MgCO3 and CO2 (a cool
reaction). Filter out the MgCO3 and add vinegar to create the acetate.
I believe this will work as I have created other Copper ammomium salts (than the sulfate) as well. There is actually a thread I created a while ago on
the preparation of Copper ammonium nitrate per the path above employing Mg(NO3)2 in place of MgSO4 in the Energetc forum. |
You are not describing the production of copper ammonium salts in your posts, but ammine complexes of copper.
Cu(NH3)2OH would be diamminecopper(I) hydroxide.
Cu(NH3)4(OH)2 would be tetramminecopper(II) hydroxide (and, MrHomeScientist, the hydroxides won't be coordinated to
the copper, so a metathesis reaction with magnesium sulphate is at least plausible. And only four ammonias will coordinate to copper(II); you won't
get a hexammine complex).
Cu(NH3)4SO4 is tetramminecopper(II) sulphate, not copper ammonium sulphate.
Please remember: "Filtrate" is not a verb.
Write up your lab reports the way your instructor wants them, not the way your ex-instructor wants them.
|
|
|
The Volatile Chemist
International Hazard
Posts: 1981
Registered: 22-3-2014
Location: 'Stil' in the lab...
Member Is Offline
Mood: Copious
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by DraconicAcid | | Quote: Originally posted by AJKOER | I would prefer a cleaner path by substituting Magnesium acetate for Magnesium sulfate.
I would prepare Magnesium acetate by adding NaHCO3 to aqueous MgSO4. Heat to convert the soluble Mg(HCO3)2 to the insoluble MgCO3 and CO2 (a cool
reaction). Filter out the MgCO3 and add vinegar to create the acetate.
I believe this will work as I have created other Copper ammomium salts (than the sulfate) as well. There is actually a thread I created a while ago on
the preparation of Copper ammonium nitrate per the path above employing Mg(NO3)2 in place of MgSO4 in the Energetc forum. |
You are not describing the production of copper ammonium salts in your posts, but ammine complexes of copper.
Cu(NH3)2OH would be diamminecopper(I) hydroxide.
Cu(NH3)4(OH)2 would be tetramminecopper(II) hydroxide (and, MrHomeScientist, the hydroxides won't be coordinated to
the copper, so a metathesis reaction with magnesium sulphate is at least plausible. And only four ammonias will coordinate to copper(II); you won't
get a hexammine complex).
Cu(NH3)4SO4 is tetramminecopper(II) sulphate, not copper ammonium sulphate. |
There is a tetramminecopper(II) sulphate wikipedia page, but this form is discussing copper ammonia double salts. By the way, DraconicAcid, I tried
making the calcium copper acetate double salt. It worked, thanks! I also tried calcium copper carbonate, and I'm pretty sure (After a few days of
sitting) it formed. My proof being that after sitting for a day, a layer of compound colored differently than the mix of calcium carbonate and copper
carbonate below it formed. Upon stirring, this new compound settled almost instantainiously, while the unreacted copper carbonate and calcium
carbonate took a while to settle. (Correct me if I'm wrong).
|
|
|
DraconicAcid
International Hazard
Posts: 4278
Registered: 1-2-2013
Location: The tiniest college campus ever....
Member Is Offline
Mood: Semi-victorious.
|
|
Yes, but AJKOER was referring to ammonia complexes as if they were double salts; I was correcting him.
| Quote: | | By the way, DraconicAcid, I tried making the calcium copper acetate double salt. It worked, thanks! I also tried calcium copper carbonate, and I'm
pretty sure (After a few days of sitting) it formed. My proof being that after sitting for a day, a layer of compound colored differently than the mix
of calcium carbonate and copper carbonate below it formed. Upon stirring, this new compound settled almost instantainiously, while the unreacted
copper carbonate and calcium carbonate took a while to settle. (Correct me if I'm wrong). |
I'm glad to hear that the calcium double salt worked, but how did you try a double salt of the carbonates? I would expect that both calcium carbonate
and copper(II) carbonate would simply sit at the bottom of the solution, and neither would do a thing.
Please remember: "Filtrate" is not a verb.
Write up your lab reports the way your instructor wants them, not the way your ex-instructor wants them.
|
|
|
MrHomeScientist
International Hazard
Posts: 1806
Registered: 24-10-2010
Location: Flerovium
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by DraconicAcid |
Cu(NH3)4(OH)2 would be tetramminecopper(II) hydroxide (and, MrHomeScientist, the hydroxides won't be coordinated to
the copper, so a metathesis reaction with magnesium sulphate is at least plausible. And only four ammonias will coordinate to copper(II); you won't
get a hexammine complex). |
Damn, I always do that. Tetraaminecopper(II) is the correct complex with ammonia. I must be confusing things with hexaaminenickel(II) chloride, a
compound I made some time ago that apparently has really stuck with me.
I'll concede that the reaction is plausible if the hydroxide isn't associated with the complex in solution (as AJKOER seemed to suggest it was with
his naming scheme). I'd certainly like to see an experiment done. I've got quite a lot on my plate at the moment, otherwise I'd try it myself.
|
|
|
The Volatile Chemist
International Hazard
Posts: 1981
Registered: 22-3-2014
Location: 'Stil' in the lab...
Member Is Offline
Mood: Copious
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by DraconicAcid |
Yes, but AJKOER was referring to ammonia complexes as if they were double salts; I was correcting him.
| Quote: | | By the way, DraconicAcid, I tried making the calcium copper acetate double salt. It worked, thanks! I also tried calcium copper carbonate, and I'm
pretty sure (After a few days of sitting) it formed. My proof being that after sitting for a day, a layer of compound colored differently than the mix
of calcium carbonate and copper carbonate below it formed. Upon stirring, this new compound settled almost instantainiously, while the unreacted
copper carbonate and calcium carbonate took a while to settle. (Correct me if I'm wrong). |
I'm glad to hear that the calcium double salt worked, but how did you try a double salt of the carbonates? I would expect that both calcium carbonate
and copper(II) carbonate would simply sit at the bottom of the solution, and neither would do a thing. |
I first made a solution of calcium sulfate and copper (II) sulfate. I then added sodium Bicarbonate, which as you say, just left them sitting, a pale
green mix of calcium carbonate and copper(II) carbonate. At the time of the reaction, I thought nothing had happened, but I wasn't sure. I left it to
sit, and after about 20 hrs. I noticed a blue layer had formed between the settled calcium carbonate and copper carbonate; and the water in my beaker:
See here: http://ptp.x10.mx/PTDC0211.JPG
(Sorry for the High Res...) Upon stirring, All three compounds (The leftover calcium carbonate and copper carbonate, and the new compound) all
suspended in the water. The new compound was actually small beady nodules (crystals) that fell out of suspension immediately, so I was able to pour
off the calcium carbonate and copper carbonate. As if to prove a reaction had occurred, the extra material I had poured off reacted over a few more
(5) hours, to form more of the blue-ish compound and excess copper carbonate (Which i had predicted, as I had added too much initially). I'm pretty
sure this is the double salt Calcium copper carbonate.
|
|
|
| Pages:
1
2 |
|
![[*]](images/xpblue/default_icon.gif){kind=icon}
