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ecos
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shocked.gif posted on 27-3-2014 at 23:55
Ammonium nitrate mixtures


Hi All,

I went through many books and websites searching about the most powerful ammonium nitrate mixtures but couldn't find any comparison to those mixtures except for one document only that compares ANFO to AN/AL.

I also had a look here : Chemistry and Technology of Explosives - vol 3 but still no comparison

I can find many mixtures of ammonium nitrate with different percentages :
AN/AL
AN + Al + Sugar
AN + Al + Charcoal
AN + Al + Sulfur
AN + Al + Diesel Fuel
ANFO
ANNMAL

of course I am not interested with mixtures of TNT since it is hard to prepare it at home.

According to your experience what is the most powerful mixture that has higher VOD ? and what is the weight percentage of this mixture ?


[Edited on 28-3-2014 by ecos]

[Edited on 28-3-2014 by ecos]

[Edited on 28-3-2014 by ecos]
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[*] posted on 28-3-2014 at 03:01


ANNMAL is superior to the other mixtures that you listed. Both brisance and VOD is much higher for ANNMAL than most of the other common ammonium nitrate explosives.
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[*] posted on 28-3-2014 at 03:28


I wanted to avoid ANNMAL since I have problem in Nitric acid, I have it with low concentration :( ~50%

I wished to make NG but it seems I can't, I need to make distillation for Nitric acid but it would take time and I am not that free.

then lets concentrate about mixtures without NM :)
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[*] posted on 28-3-2014 at 07:24


There are a LOT of things that sensitize ammonium nitrate.

You just said you can't make THE classic material for this, used for over 150 years all over the world by the megaton, founder of a great fortune and a trust fund backing prestigious science prizes.

But the thing you lack is not the only material that will work. You have claimed to have everything required in the last week.

*And if you EVER again start a new thread to ask a basic question on a well discussed topic, no more homework.




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[*] posted on 28-3-2014 at 08:12


Getting high concentrated nitric acid is not easy in my country.
I could get ~70% conc from my friend to make NG but the result was very small and i got bad headache as expected. So i intended to try AN in the current time.
I want to know how far shall i reach with AN mixtures. I seached the forum and couldnt find any answer for my question

This topic might extend if sb propose another mixture or different percentages
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Rosco Bodine
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[*] posted on 28-3-2014 at 09:12


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[*] posted on 28-3-2014 at 09:24


Quote: Originally posted by ecos  

According to your experience what is the most powerful mixture that has higher VOD ? and what is the weight percentage of this mixture ?


It doesnt really matter which one you take....they are all ammoniumnitrate (oxidizer) + some carbon containing stuff/AL (both are fuels)...and are damn weak explosives...

you could imporove the power if you mix thouse chemicals very good (solution of AN and sugar and the FUCKING slow and not very warm heating) this might result in a much better combustion (higher VOD/brisance) of the sugar than just mixed AN powder with sugar powder...but even this will possible just make it a few percent better than just mixed powders

ANNM is far superior to normal AN+C explosives cause NM is an (very insensive) explosive by itself (NO2 groups, you know;) ) and has a VOD of 6100-6400m/s by itself IF you can make it detonate (sensitizer needed like ammonia/HNO3 into NM

and even ANNM is MUCH less powerful than lets say TNT...so now you can imagine how weak AN+C explosives are
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[*] posted on 28-3-2014 at 10:52


Big thanks VladimirLem for your help , I think you mean to increase the density because of warm heating!

I checked about the Oxidizer but it seems it make difference !

here is a video that show that sugar is better than Charcoal , i don't know the reason but the video state that : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Om95Q2XlHJg

maybe the usage of Sulfur might give a better enhancement but I don't know yet , I start to search about that now(maybe because of OB).

I will try to find away to get 90% nitric acid but it is a dream for me :)

[Edited on 28-3-2014 by ecos]
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[*] posted on 28-3-2014 at 11:57


WTF, how did we get on nitric acid from ANNMAL? I second Rosco, stop the spoonfeeding.
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[*] posted on 28-3-2014 at 15:54


I have advised ecos on his conduct and reopened his thread.
i know that long standing members of Science Madness will act with care and consideration for our community of amateur scientists and try to avoid conflict.

Best wishes,

Science Squirrel
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[*] posted on 28-3-2014 at 23:49


Quote: Originally posted by ecos  

maybe the usage of Sulfur might give a better enhancement


never read of sulfur mixed into AMMONAL...it could produce poison gases when detonated...dont do that....AN+C is weak, you cant turn it in an even ANNM like explosive... even if the OB is perfect

the density is very important, thats correct...i only wanted to make clear, the better mixed the oxidizer and the fuel are the better the detonation will work (like as it is at blackpowder, well mixed ones burn much faster - just an example, BP doesnt detonate...normally:D)

and yes...the other guys around herte are right...there are much informations on this board about your questions...just use the search engine;)

[Edited on 29-3-2014 by VladimirLem]
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[*] posted on 29-3-2014 at 01:06


I ran a few quick calculations on the mixtures you listed, ecos. AN/Al, AN/Al/sugar, AN/Al/charcoal AN/Al/S and ANFOAl all displays very similar performance. ANFO has lower performance, and ANNMAl much higher.
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[*] posted on 29-3-2014 at 01:43


@Dornier , I would appreciate if you tell me how did u calculate it, you can provide a reference and I could read it if you wish
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[*] posted on 2-9-2014 at 11:35


Very powerful and simple composition: AN 91.1 + 8.7 hexamine. Add 0.2 soap. Create a eutectic at 155 C. Pour the cold (0-20C)aluminum sheet. In thin layers adjacent. As a small flat cakes. Crush the size of 2X2 mm and smaller. Cap sensitive No.8. The 20mm diameter and larger. The composition does not contain aluminum. The addition of 1-5% aluminum with power and sensitivity will increase. The recommended density is 1.0 to 1.2 g / cc.
LL

[Edited on 2-9-2014 by Laboratory of Liptakov]

[Edited on 2-9-2014 by Laboratory of Liptakov]
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[*] posted on 2-9-2014 at 13:57


Quote: Originally posted by Laboratory of Liptakov  
Very powerful and simple composition: AN 91.1 + 8.7 hexamine. Add 0.2 soap. Create a eutectic at 155 C. Pour the cold (0-20C)aluminum sheet. In thin layers adjacent. As a small flat cakes. Crush the size of 2X2 mm and smaller. Cap sensitive No.8. The 20mm diameter and larger. The composition does not contain aluminum. The addition of 1-5% aluminum with power and sensitivity will increase. The recommended density is 1.0 to 1.2 g / cc.
LL


Do you have a source to cite for this?
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[*] posted on 2-9-2014 at 20:12


http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=24032

Have not run down patent literature yet, but interesting...

(Edit)

http://www.google.nl/patents/US4528049

Ammonium nitrate seismic explosive, sensitized with hexamine & Aluminum.




[Edited on 3-9-2014 by Bert]




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[*] posted on 3-9-2014 at 02:01



Clear and understandable answer to the first question posed. (from ECOS). The source composition is a research laboratory. Not by reference to patents. (for roxefeller) But I know them. This composition was subjected to tests LL: http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=24032
It is a weak explosive. Dangerous production. Unnecessarily complicated. Aluminum degrades during the production process. There are other discrepancies. I'm writing a deliberately simple sentences. I use machine translation. Therefore, I do not have any question referred easy to understand. Details of the research are here: http://www.pyroforum.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1124&post...
LL

[Edited on 3-9-2014 by Laboratory of Liptakov]

[Edited on 3-9-2014 by Laboratory of Liptakov]
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[*] posted on 3-9-2014 at 02:58


The most powerful non-molecular explosive is Cyklonan No.1,2,3. Developed in the Laboratory of Liptakov. But that's for another topic. Very easy prepare.
LL
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[*] posted on 5-9-2014 at 00:04


I was recently looking through some PDF files I have and opened up Tim Lewis's "kitchen improvised fertilizer explosives" although I tend to not really follow any instructions from books like this, while looking at some of the AN mixtures presented in it he mentions that the addition of .25% to 1% of "tide" or "Mr bubble" to an ANFO mixture gives a performance increase to the mixture used. Iwas wondering if anybody has ever tried this or verified this claim? It does seem interesting as ANFO could benefit from any increase if any is given using it but I don't see how the washing powders would help the performance increase he mentioned was slight. I dont know how he measured this though.



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[*] posted on 5-9-2014 at 03:28



In the described compositions AN / hex soap is used as crystal growth inhibitor in the quenching of 145 (155C) at 20C. Small crystals of eutectic = higher VoD and sensibility. Soap is the only home replacement. The best inhibitors by abietic acid. Addition of 0.1 to 1%. Correct me if I'm wrong. But so far I'm the only one who could (for ECOS) answer.
Why waste time searching multiple references to patents and contributions. Just know by heart at least the first composition. A self-checkout.

HEX-Cnan.jpg - 228kB

[Edited on 6-9-2014 by Laboratory of Liptakov]
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[*] posted on 6-9-2014 at 11:24


Quote: Originally posted by Laboratory of Liptakov  
Very powerful and simple composition: AN 91.1 + 8.7 hexamine. Add 0.2 soap. Create a eutectic at 155 C. Pour the cold (0-20C)aluminum sheet. In thin layers adjacent. As a small flat cakes. Crush the size of 2X2 mm and smaller. Cap sensitive No.8. The 20mm diameter and larger. The composition does not contain aluminum. The addition of 1-5% aluminum with power and sensitivity will increase. The recommended density is 1.0 to 1.2 g / cc.
LL

[Edited on 2-9-2014 by Laboratory of Liptakov]

Even better:
-Ammonium nitrate for Oxygen Balance.
-Hexamine dinitrate for sensitivity to initiation, fuel and higher VOD than AN...this must be the main charge!
-Soap for wetting and convenient mixing of the Al dust.
-Aluminium dust for some boost




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[*] posted on 6-9-2014 at 11:29


Quote: Originally posted by Bert  
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=24032

Have not run down patent literature yet, but interesting...

(Edit)

http://www.google.nl/patents/US4528049

Ammonium nitrate seismic explosive, sensitized with hexamine & Aluminum.

[Edited on 3-9-2014 by Bert]


Also to note the presence of CuO!

Then in the mix upon detonation just as if the following where mixed:
-a kind of Al/CuO thermite
-a kind of sensitizer by reaction between CuO and NH4NO3 what makes Cu(NH3)4(NO3)2 (TACuN)
-some Hexamethylenetetramine dinitrate sensitizer by reaction between Hexamine and NH4NO3
-some Ammonal (NH4NO3/Al)




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[*] posted on 6-9-2014 at 11:33


Quote: Originally posted by Laboratory of Liptakov  
The most powerful non-molecular explosive is Cyklonan No.1,2,3. Developed in the Laboratory of Liptakov. But that's for another topic. Very easy prepare.
LL


This is claim without any proof...also you are preaching for your own chapel... :P
What makes you very unpartial ;) and really not objective :D




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[*] posted on 6-9-2014 at 13:02


Arguing? Advocating Cyklonan? Looking for derision? No. They will not bother.
LL
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[*] posted on 8-9-2014 at 03:41


Derision...
"Uh you are looking for Sarah Connor,...? Sorry, she is not here, she is the girl nextdoor..."

No seriously, take a few weeks to learn a little English, the translator makes you sound like a robot (a terminator ;):P).
Just like you, I'm not a native English speaker/writer.

I suppose you speak a Czech language...as such you should be able to learn languages quite fast...

Back on topic-constructive criticism: You claim "The most powerful non-molecular explosive is Cyklonan No.1,2,3."

--> What makes you think cyclonan is a "non-molecular" explosive?
To me it is a mix of molecules and as such it is molecular.

--> What makes you think it is "the most powerful"?
To me it is very poor explosive a simple mix of other explosive molecules would pulverize the metal piece you have displayed in your picture (at least into shrapnells below 5mm diameter...).
You of course realise that you only succeeded in cracking partially the metal piece what would be indication of a deflagration and not of a detonation.
I have made a simple KClO3/S/C/CaCO3 mix that was able to pulverize open metal pipe (3cm long, 2.5 cm diameter, 1.5mm ironsteel wall-thickness open on both sides) without detonator and that was only a strong deflagrating mix.


[Edited on 8-9-2014 by PHILOU Zrealone]




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