Polverone
Now celebrating 21 years of madness
Posts: 3186
Registered: 19-5-2002
Location: The Sunny Pacific Northwest
Member Is Offline
Mood: Waiting for spring
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Visited by the police today
Got a visit from the police today:
Nothing serious. But while I was attempting yet another new method for ferrocyanide synthesis under the carport, the meter reader lady from the power
company came by and looked rather strangely at me heating a metal dish full of powders and giving it the occasional stir with a spoon. I smiled and
said hi and kind of wondered if she'd be reporting my suspicious activities. Sure enough, about an hour later a young police officer saunters up,
while I'm still experimenting, and mentions that they received a call about someone heating something in a spoon over a flame outside. He asks what
I'm doing and I tell him I'm trying to make potassium ferrocyanide as a possible intermediate to prussian blue, one of
the first important synthetic dyes, since I like reading about and trying old chemistry. No troubles. Although my paranoid side wonders if I've just
landed on some sort of higher-priority watch list of individuals, I know that I don't have any potent poisons, explosives, drugs, or important drug
precursors around, so I'm not too worried. But I'm glad I didn't choose this weekend to attempt sodium fluoroacetate, or any of the very interesting
compounds (just reagents, not drugs) I've lately been reading about on the Hive.
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raistlin
Hazard to Others
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Registered: 5-7-2002
Location: Ohio
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hehe
Very good move staying calm and all. However, I wouldn't do any other experiments in public view for a while. My friends father was a police
officer, and when they get reports of people performing strange experiments, they tend to watch you more closely, and they do add you to a watch list.
The good news is however, as long as you dont get caught anymore, in about 6 months, your name will be removed from the list. Just dont check out
any books from the library concerning nitration or the such....
Raistlin
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Polverone
Now celebrating 21 years of madness
Posts: 3186
Registered: 19-5-2002
Location: The Sunny Pacific Northwest
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Mood: Waiting for spring
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I'm not too worried about the local police. I check out any books from the private university library. I do worry that some day my interests will come
back to haunt me... If not for 9/11 and the associated anti-terrorist hype I wouldn't be so worried.
We have had a lot of meth labs around here, and even got a "how to spot a possible meth lab" flyer in the mail from the city. I qualified for a number
of the signs they gave, which was rather amusing at the time but adds a little bit more to my worries.
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raistlin
Hazard to Others
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Location: Ohio
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LOL
I doubt you have much to worry about... I would be a little worried about being on a watch list though...BTW do you know if you can get a "library
card" to a university even though you dont go there?
Raistlin
\"To ignite, or not to ignite, that is the question.\"
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Polverone
Now celebrating 21 years of madness
Posts: 3186
Registered: 19-5-2002
Location: The Sunny Pacific Northwest
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Mood: Waiting for spring
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I believe that you can obtain a library card for many university libraries even if you are not a student. I would just go in and ask the librarian if
you have a conveniently located university. Even if you can't check stuff out you can generally visit, browse through databases, photocopy interesting
stuff, etc. At our campus anyone can walk in and use the library. We have some rather expensive electronic journal subscriptions, such as to those of
the American Chemical Society. You can walk into our library with a Zip disk and download all the PDF articles you like, no ID or password required.
Not that too many members of the general public are going to know or care about that.
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raistlin
Hazard to Others
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Location: Ohio
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Thanks
Thanks for the info, what university do you go to?
Raistlin
\"To ignite, or not to ignite, that is the question.\"
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Magpie
lab constructor
Posts: 5939
Registered: 1-11-2003
Location: USA
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Mood: Chemistry: the subtle science.
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Hello to All:
This is my first post. Please bear with me if I seem naive.
I think you handled the police visit very well, especially in relating it to the history of chemistry. "Education" is a sacred cow and
mentioning it should help justify hands on chemistry.
As I see it your police visit is symptomatic of the general problem with chem labs. As our able administration has indicated "chemicals are
synonymous with evil in the eyes of the general public." I have not set my lab up yet but want to do it in the best way possible within my
resources. I don't want the neighbors complaining (or watching), I don't want visits from the police, DEA, FBI, etc. I don't want to
pollute the (or my) environment or ruin my city sewer line/system, I don't want to contaminate my family, home, or yard, I don't want to
burn the place down, and I don't want to get hurt. I know this is asking a lot for Mad Science, and compromises will be inevitable.
This having been said. I intend to do my chemistry! I just want to do it in the wisest way possible.
Why not get a city business license (~$40) and call yourself a chemical engineering consultant. This should ease the minds of the authorities if they
found you conducting some chemistry. Also you would have a tax number and could order all the chemicals and apparati that you cared to from chemical
supply houses without question?
Maggie
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Organikum
resurrected
Posts: 2329
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Location: Europe
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Mood: busy and in love
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dont worry,
you are booked for martyrism anyways.
 ORG
(but this to happen made you more safe against anonymous denunciations which are more dangerous and near to impossible to handle. Well done) 
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wrench352
Harmless
Posts: 5
Registered: 7-8-2003
Location: the south
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Mood: buzzed
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Ive been super-paranoid for a while now,having bought a whole f-load of suspicious reagents.I know I'm dealin with a lot of EUROs but I hope this
might help:
if an agent knocks
also what to do if you find out you bought from a reverse sting?
wow that musics annoying,I know ELF library has the PDF
That has to be the greatest Idea ever magpie!!!!And you can do it all online too!
[Edited on 8-11-2003 by wrench352]
just call me stumpy
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chloric1
International Hazard
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Registered: 8-10-2003
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Feel your pain
Polverone,
I definately feel your pain. Luckily you are in the clear but you may indeed be watched. My suggestion is that you are not observed in
"questionable" activities in the next few months. I think it may be further advantageous to adopt a "front" hobby such as
alternative photography, patination of metals, or other chemically inclined artform. Or, as another poster suggested, get a business license and be a
chemist for hire. This last option is what I am seriously considering as I want to get a degree in chemistry after I obain my Bachelors in electronics
engineering. I think a consulting chemist would indeed be able to buy many of reagents not so easily obtained by an obscure individual with no
discerning credentials.
Fellow molecular manipulator
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Organikum
resurrected
Posts: 2329
Registered: 12-10-2002
Location: Europe
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Mood: busy and in love
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we are all watched
always. We just dont realize it mostly.
Better as an Front-Hobby I believe would be Polverone goes public by giving courses on "The History of Dyes" with some practical examples
shown at the local peoples highschool or clubs and circles - Rotary/Freemanson/Lion/Scull and Bones....... (ok forget the last one).
my2cnt (EURO)
ORG
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Magpie
lab constructor
Posts: 5939
Registered: 1-11-2003
Location: USA
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Mood: Chemistry: the subtle science.
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answers for the nosey
Having a "front hobby" is an idea I have also had and think it may be a good backup if you can't become a consultant with a business
license.
My vision includes 1) an office, 2) a storeroom, 3) a mechanical shop, and most importantly, 4) a wet lab. As construction proceeds the nosey will
understand the need for everything but the last. They will want to know why I'm installing a sink, fume hood, and bench. My best answer, I
believe, is "to make wine and beer," and "to provide a place for my wife to do her arts & crafts" (what a great guy I am).
Color photograpy and ceramics might also be good front hobbies. Once construction is completed the lab room will be locked and only those I allow
will enter. My dreams are big, I know, and unfortunately so is the cost estimate.
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slvr_phoenix
Harmless
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Registered: 26-11-2003
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Mood: desufnoc
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Chemistry Stinks
I'm not a chemist myself, but I work with a bunch of them and if their stories are anything to go by then not only is having a "front
hobby" important, but also being very aware of what you're working with and producing is. Some results can have very strong odors and if
you stink up the neighborhood it would be difficult for 'nosy' people not to notice. Heh heh.
Oh, and another good 'front hobby' is geologist and/or anything relating to such. (Such as a 'semi-precious gemstone jeweler'.)
Tell people that you work with chemicals and they freak. Tell people that you work with rocks (and just use the chemicals to clean them or such) and
the worst that you have to worry about is them wanting to see the rocks.
[Edited on 2-12-2003 by slvr_phoenix]
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BromicAcid
International Hazard
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Registered: 13-7-2003
Location: Wisconsin
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I was in my backyard today doing some chemistry when I look over and see the electricity man standing on the other side of the gate reading the meter.
So, I pretended like he wasn't there and kept working and in short order he left. After he left I kept thinking about this thred, and started
thinking, 'What if he calls the cops?'
Sure enough I'm walking out of the back gate, empty jug of HCl in my hand with gloves on and goggles and I round the corner and there is a police
SUV parked there. I slowly walked backwards noticing the officer did not take notice of me and re-rounded the corner and went in the backyard.
Immediately I re-labeled my current experiment 'Preparation of Magnesium Boride' as 'Determination of boron in cereal' in my lab
notes, then took stock of the situation, I was distilling hydrazine and had bottle and beakers everywere, not to mention I was trying to make diborane
and determing how much I was making through an appratus I had pondered together.
It was not a good time to have a police visit. Twenty minutes later I decided to meet him half way since he hadn't come back, and he was gone.
I figured that he had gone for re-inforcements when he saw what I had going in my backyard and started pondering how to destroy my phosphorus, going
so far as to open the container causing it to catch on fire. An hour passed, then two, finally I was walking out front and noticed that the neighbors
van, the one in the street with a window busted out and a flat tire that hand't moved in weeks had a ticket.
I was incredibly relieved to say the least. Still though, it made me think I should decrease my chemical stockpile. Fun day right ?
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JohnWW
International Hazard
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Registered: 27-7-2004
Location: New Zealand
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It appears from Polverone's and BromicAcid's posts that electricity meter readers are "snoopy", and are likely to turn
experimenters into the Pigs on the flimsiest pretext of "suspicious activities". You should either confine your experiments to as far as
possibly from the electricity meter, or have the meter moved to as near your street frontage as possible, or move out to a rural area and generate
your own electricity there.
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evil_lurker
National Hazard
Posts: 767
Registered: 12-3-2005
Location: United States of Elbonia
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Mood: On the wagon again.
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Meter readers are not just "snoopy" because they are. There are rewards out there for meter readers who turn in meth labs and pot grows,
enough for them make a decent chunk of change should they run up on one. Its probably a good thing that you were doing it out in the open and showed
the cop what you were doing. Otherwise you could have been visited later by the SWAT team. Hell for that matter you might STILL be visited by
them.
Anyways, starting up a chemical engineering consulting firm may seem like a decent idea on the surface, but then you get into stuff like zoning,
taxes, OSHA, EPA and a whole other slew of business related regulations that could end up costing you some money. The possible civil and criminal
penalties associated with the above are not too cheap for violations of those either.
My advice would be to just lay low, build a private lab and treat it as if it were a business lab. Meaning all chemicals properly labeled and stored
in a locked blue chemical cabinet, with MSDS book handy. Glassware is cleaned and stored nice and tidy. Non-labware should be avoided. PPE should be
on hand. In other words, make it LOOK genuine and professional.
While many reagents are controlled substances, it could be said that the more reagents that one has on hand the more synthesis that can be completed,
in other words creating plausible deniability. Two things though I would not have in combination are phosphorus and iodine. P2P and anhydrous ammonia
are some things one does not want to have lying around either.
Documentation and pictures of the amateur chemist conducting lawful synthesis are OK and probably should be encouraged, again creating plausible
deniability. Any research via the internet or documentation of the manufacturing of energetic materials or pharmaceuticals should be restricted if one
has the reagents to make them. One does not want to give law enforcement any help to catch you on a charge of intent to manufacture. Notes on
controlled substances are OK if done on a computer and encrypted, providing that any temporary files created are destroyed. Pictures should be
encrypted as well, and never should one photograph themselves or any recognizable location making any illegal/controlled substance.
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YT2095
International Hazard
Posts: 1091
Registered: 31-5-2003
Location: Just left of Europe and down a bit.
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Mood: within Nominal Parameters
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well I did a Stupid thing a little while back, although I DO have a genuine "Front hobby" as it called, and that deals with Horticulture, I specialise
in Chili peppers, but also grow many other plants, I tailor make my own plant foods to suit each individualy.
I ordered red Phos and Iodine together (the postage was cheaper) and although it was only 50gr of each (enough to last me several decades), I had
absoultely NO IDEA that it was used for drug making, and that they`re used together as well 
so because of my ignorance of such illicit alternative uses for these 2 elements, I may also have inadvertantly put myself on a watch list
the worst part is that it falls directly on the heels of a drugs raid in my home while the wife and I were out (ppl thought because I leave regularly
with seedlings that it must be canabis or the likes), yes nosey asshole neigbors and drug deelers that think I maybe treading on their turf perhaps?
anyway, during the raid all my chems were looked at and many other things too, and there was no arrest and nothing taken.
NOW I`m as parnoid as hell, as I have a 1 year old daughter and a wife that couldn`t go through all that trauma again of a raid with smashed in front
door and our home turned upside down
and no, I didn`t get an appology or kiss my ass or nothing from them after only the comment "we know what you`re about now, it was a false report".
WFT does "we know what you`re about now" mean????
those were the exact words.
paranoid, yes!
Right to be,,, I think so!
\"In a world full of wonders mankind has managed to invent boredom\" - Death
Twinkies don\'t have a shelf life. They have a half-life! -Caine (a friend of mine)
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evil_lurker
National Hazard
Posts: 767
Registered: 12-3-2005
Location: United States of Elbonia
Member Is Offline
Mood: On the wagon again.
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| Quote: | Originally posted by YT2095
WFT does "we know what you`re about now" mean????
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Means they now think your one of those deranged idiots that likes to play with chemicals for shits and giggles rather than a terrorist or drug cook.
Still sucks that they had to tear your door down and turn your house upside down for you to prove it.
It should be law that if your house gets searched and they find nothing, then you should be able to sue their asses off for damages to your property.
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YT2095
International Hazard
Posts: 1091
Registered: 31-5-2003
Location: Just left of Europe and down a bit.
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Mood: within Nominal Parameters
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the totaly Crazy part was they went right past about half a kilo of assorted Color Stars all in bags that Could have probably looked like resin and
and several tubes of Flash Powder for the bursting charges, and yet the bag of Cat-Nip and all my herbs and spices had been opened and messed with!
are they NUTS!?
the poor cats were terrified and one didn`t come out of hiding until 2 days later, so they obviously had a Dog with them.
my guns had been opened and placed on the bed, so they were 100% Drugs and nothing else motivated them.
there`s 2 way I can look at that event, One since nothing was done about my chems it`s as good as Permission and seen as Harmless incl my 2Kg jar of
AN.
or 2) they`ve made notes and are just saving me for a rainy day when more arrests are needed to improve their figures!?
ok granted, it`s hardly WMD, but I guess if they REALLY wanted to force an issue and twist things enough, they could make life hard for me
\"In a world full of wonders mankind has managed to invent boredom\" - Death
Twinkies don\'t have a shelf life. They have a half-life! -Caine (a friend of mine)
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jimmyboy
Hazard to Others
Posts: 235
Registered: 1-3-2004
Location: Texas
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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getting a license or registration wont help - and trying to reason won't either -- the public is just too damn dumb and paranoid.. just make a
greenhouse or do your thing in the garage -- anywhere away from prying eyes -- if you have something thats noxious - find some pasture or private land
somewhere - i can see that may not be easy for some since alot of you live in the city - but an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.. you
do not want to be on the cops shitlist...
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proton_force
Harmless
Posts: 22
Registered: 12-6-2006
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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It really scares me reading this. In some european states they don't care anything about, what kind of chemicals you got at your home as long as you
don't missuse it for any public threating purposes. So it ultimatively surprises me that there are such suspicious controls in the USA (althought the
anti-terror-campaign explains the cautious behaviour of the police)
Regards
proton_force
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IrC
International Hazard
Posts: 2710
Registered: 7-3-2005
Location: Eureka
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Mood: Discovering
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I think my 2 posts in the "rights" thread fit better here.
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bereal511
Hazard to Others
Posts: 162
Registered: 9-8-2005
Location: Madison, WI
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Mood: No Mood
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Ugh, I got a visit from the police a few days ago while I was experimenting with my fresnel lens.
I had the lens in my backyard on a framed post and was experimenting with silicon carbide as some recommended as a light absorber. So after a few
minutes of directing the light onto the carbide block, I went to get some lunch. I think about 10 minutes later, as I was finishing my sandwich,
there was a loud explosion from my backyard. The sunlight had moved off from the carbide block onto the concrete and apparently superheated the water
in it to the point of exploding. It was a large chunk, about 5 inches. Needless to say, my jackass neighbor had been watching the whole thing while
I was eating (I seriously think he spies on me, because this wasn't the first incident). He's yelling at me for disturbing his dogs, then tells me
that he's going to call the police. And 5 minutes later, they show up at my front door. Luckily, my city police is pretty laid back on the rules,
and they've had more incidents with my neighbor drunk and stupid than with my experiments. So I show them the fresnel lens, how it works, what had
happened, and what I'm using it for. And they just laugh and tell me that I did a great job on the wood work. Nearly gave me a heartattack though,
my parents would have taken away all my chemistry stuff if they had been home.
As an adolescent I aspired to lasting fame, I craved factual certainty, and I thirsted for a meaningful vision of human life -- so I became a
scientist. This is like becoming an archbishop so you can meet girls.
-- Matt Cartmill
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Magpie
lab constructor
Posts: 5939
Registered: 1-11-2003
Location: USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: Chemistry: the subtle science.
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That would be disturbing. What exactly did the police look at. Just your equipment in your backyard? Any "chemicaly" looking equipment out there?
Did they want to go inside your house for a look around? I trust you have your "lab" and chemicals inside.
The single most important condition for a successful synthesis is good mixing - Nicodem
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bereal511
Hazard to Others
Posts: 162
Registered: 9-8-2005
Location: Madison, WI
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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No, they never asked for a search. They just assumed that my neighbor was drunk and looking for something to rowdy up. The only "chemically" looking
equipment I had was probably a thermocouple and a few test tubes. I have my lab in garage, so there was no accidental exposure of the lab.
As an adolescent I aspired to lasting fame, I craved factual certainty, and I thirsted for a meaningful vision of human life -- so I became a
scientist. This is like becoming an archbishop so you can meet girls.
-- Matt Cartmill
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