Sciencemadness Discussion Board
Not logged in [Login - Register]
Go To Bottom

Printable Version  
 Pages:  1    3  4
Author: Subject: PLX type explosives
Axt
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 778
Registered: 28-1-2003
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 18-12-2004 at 00:28
PLX type explosives


NM = 6210m/s in 15/16" glass tube (PATR 2700)
NM = 6350m/s (LLNL handbook)
PLX = 6165m/s in 15/16" glass tube (PATR 2700)
MEN-II = 5490m/s (LLNL Handbook)

PLX =
95% nitromethane
5% ethylenediamine

MEN-II =
72.2% nitromethane
23.4% methanol
4.4% ethylenediamine

No one knows the VOD of APAN/MEKPAN, but their explosive effect is considerably less then NM.

A lot of things sensitise NM, I wouldnt bother making ethylenediamine to form true PLX unless you need to know the exact properties of the explosive. For a bang, try using 30% of 70% HNO3, never fails.

Edit by Chemoleo: Removed useless posts.

[Edited on 25-8-2006 by chemoleo]
View user's profile Visit user's homepage View All Posts By User
Hideki Matsumoto
Banned





Posts: 32
Registered: 16-12-2004
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 18-12-2004 at 00:29
thnx


I was thinking about using Ethylene glycol and HCl to make Ethylene chloride then making a diamine that way... hmm, just curious...
View user's profile Visit user's homepage View All Posts By User
Axt
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 778
Registered: 28-1-2003
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 18-12-2004 at 00:42


Im attaching a pdf on the mechanism for which amines sensitise nitromethane.

Attachment: Amine Sensitization in Shocked Nitromethane.pdf (161kB)
This file has been downloaded 2987 times

View user's profile Visit user's homepage View All Posts By User
Macgyver
Harmless
*




Posts: 16
Registered: 3-8-2004
Location: Northern Territories
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 19-12-2004 at 02:50


Quote:
Originally posted by Hideki Matsumoto
i am wondering how one makes ethylenediamine?
I am curious as to what it's det vol is in comparison to MEKPAN 9.1 or APAN....


It must not be ethylendiamine, works just as good with Tertiaryamines like what I believe is used as hardener in some two component epoxy glues....
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Hideki Matsumoto
Banned





Posts: 32
Registered: 16-12-2004
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 21-12-2004 at 01:00
About MEKPAN and APAN


APAN has about 4500-5000m/s, I am not sure on this exactly.. I think this number can vary depending on what isomer is used. ...
Don't quote me on this but I think the Anhydrous Trimeric MEKP has more energy ( most of all MEKPs). Dvol is 6800-7000 m/s ballpark, but harder to set off in compairison to AP .. APAN .. .etc..
MEKPAN III is about 6500-6700 m/s...

right now I have abandoned MEKP synthesis and am working on DPPP which defently is the target peroxide everyone is after.. dvol for this is up around the 9000m/s mark... or so the patent says.. I beleive this though due to tests I have done..

[Edited on 21-12-2004 by Hideki Matsumoto]
View user's profile Visit user's homepage View All Posts By User
searat
Harmless
*




Posts: 33
Registered: 13-12-2004
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 21-12-2004 at 04:16


Try rogue science ftp, it has the syn
View user's profile View All Posts By User
franklyn
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 2989
Registered: 30-5-2006
Location: Da Big Apple
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 30-7-2006 at 00:55


Quote:
Originally posted by Axt

PLX =
95% nitromethane
5% ethylenediamine

MEN-II =
72.2% nitromethane
23.4% methanol
4.4% ethylenediamine


The presence of 5% of Ethylenediamine sensitizes the detonable balance

of 95% of nitromethane.

Ethylenediamine by itself is also detonable providing it is stressed,

by nitomethane or in concentration of as little as 3% with Methylene chloride.

There's a small mention of that here _

http://www.aps.anl.gov/Safety_and_Training/User_Safety/chems...

__________________________________________

I always believed P L X comprised a stoichiometric neutral acid base 1/3 ED , and 2/3 NM

like this _

CLICK FOR FULL SIZE

this yeilds 13 moles 4CO + 2N2 + 7H2

_______________________________


Material Safety research indicates that detonating NM may

require nothing more exotic than the inclusion of air bubbles

or voids in the liquid itsself, and that these render it

shock sensitized. See _

http://72.14.209.104/search?q=cache:fIhytYmTKuQJ:ecb.jrc.it/...

[Edited on 31-7-2006 by franklyn]

P L X.jpg - 5kB
View user's profile View All Posts By User
mfilip62
pierced by a crossbow under a bridge while eating Billy goats
***




Posts: 140
Registered: 25-8-2006
Member Is Offline

Mood: I like turtles!

[*] posted on 25-8-2006 at 12:45
PLX Perfect explosive or what?


Hello,

Can anybody tell me something more about PLX?
PLX or Picatinny Liquid Explosive, is a liquid binary explosive, a mixture of 95% nitromethane and 5% ethylene diamine. It is a slightly yellowish liquid. It was developed at Picatinny Arsenal during World War II for cleaning of minefields. It was to be mixed just before use.

I think it is perfect explosive for Shaped Charge(SC) and Explosively Formed Penetrator(EFP)!

Where cann i obtain chemicals?
Sensitivity(Primary or Secundary)?
VOD(I dont belive that it is actually around 9000 m/s!)?
denisty,risks....
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Marsh
Hazard to Self
**




Posts: 75
Registered: 28-7-2006
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 25-8-2006 at 19:48


Quote:
Originally posted by mfilip62
Hello,

Can anybody tell me something more about PLX?
PLX or Picatinny Liquid Explosive, is a liquid binary explosive, a mixture of 95% nitromethane and 5% ethylene diamine. It is a slightly yellowish liquid. It was developed at Picatinny Arsenal during World War II for cleaning of minefields. It was to be mixed just before use.

I think it is perfect explosive for Shaped Charge(SC) and Explosively Formed Penetrator(EFP)!

Where cann i obtain chemicals?
Sensitivity(Primary or Secundary)?
VOD(I dont belive that it is actually around 9000 m/s!)?
denisty,risks....


What makes you make these "perfect" assumptions? I recommend you hang around and search, as it would appear most of this info is readily available.

Where the heck are you getting 9000m/s for PLX?

It is surely a secondary explosive, and I don't know why you didn't have the patience to get through the reading of post #1, but Vod's are already listed!

As for obtaining chemicals, no one here is going to willingly offer their chem suppliers to you with such weak efforts demonstrated.

[Edited on 26-8-2006 by Marsh]
View user's profile View All Posts By User
mfilip62
pierced by a crossbow under a bridge while eating Billy goats
***




Posts: 140
Registered: 25-8-2006
Member Is Offline

Mood: I like turtles!

[*] posted on 26-8-2006 at 16:11


Sorry,
I just readed from some crapy source!
I know ith was nonsense,but...nothing my mistake.:(

I dont want you to tell me who is your supplier,becouse you are probably from USA and it does not use me,youst I want to know
is where is ethylene diamine used for!
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Deceitful_Frank
Hazard to Self
**




Posts: 82
Registered: 5-11-2005
Member Is Offline

Mood: Pensive

[*] posted on 3-10-2006 at 02:11
Nitromethane based liquid explosives


Hey guys!

I havent had a great deal of spare time of late with work and family commitments but I think my next practical will probably involve two steel strips 37cmX29mm and 7.5mm thick.

Two plastic 140ml bottles, one filled with a balanced for CO2 and H2O mix of NM and 70% HNO3 (70:30 by mass?) at density of 1.21g/cc.

The other filled with a balanced for CO and H2O mix of NM and EGDN (62:38 by mass) at density 1.26g/cc.

The former charge would have a slightly lower mass but a greater heat output due to balance for CO2, however it is around 9% water by mass overall which would obviously sap some heat from the explosion.

The latter charge is of a slightly higher density and mass but a lower heat output due to balance for CO, However it would contain little or no water and give a "drier" detonation!

Both charges to be affixed to the steel plates and fired with my extremely powerful 0.8 gram 3500psi pressed ETN in 5/16 brass tube caps. All filmed on my new cheap and cheerful nv-gs27 DV cam!

Care to speculate on which charge would deform the metal the most or add further comments or suggestions?

Peace!

EDIT:

It would appear that I may have a problem with the validity of any results I may gain from this experiment.

The 70:30 mix of NM and 70% HNO3 I wanted to use for one of the charges does not appear to be balanced for CO2... or indeed CO for that matter! Its the ratio that Axt used in some of his shaped charges and I naively just assumed it was balanced for maximum energy output or brisance. Maybe it was formulated for sensitivity or a trade off between power and reliability. Maybe they were just random figures that seemed "about right".

Can anyone shed some light on this?

To balance for CO:

5CH3NO2 + HNO3 -----> 3N2 + 5CO + 8H2O

When using 70% HNO3 this equates to approx 77% NM and 23% acid. Obviously this minimizes water content but the density is disappointing at less than 1.2g/cc.

To balance for CO2:

5CH3NO2 + 3HNO3 ------> 4N2 + 5CO2 + 9H2O

When using 70% HNO3 this equates to approx 53% NM and 47% acid. This gives a better 1.26g/cc density, in fact on paper it is identical in this respect to the EGDN/NM charge but 14% water by mass and only just over half NM... would it even fire from 0.8 grams pressed ETN and if it did, how detrimental would that water be, not to mention whether the ingredients would even be miscible with that proportion of water!

There are just so many variables and I feel rather lost. Obviously with these 170-180 gram charges, either way I've got two very big bangs in the pipeline and the potential for some cracking video but I also want to learn soimething new from this experiment.

Whatever happens there will be one approx 180 gram EGDN/NM charge in one of the 140ml bottles balanced for CO and of density 1.26g/cc firing on a 7.5mm steel plate. The other is open to suggestions so if anyone can make sence of my dilema and put forward a suitable ratio of NM and 70% HNO3 that gives good density, power and a worthwhile test... please help!


[Edited on 3-10-2006 by Deceitful_Frank]

[Edited on 3-10-2006 by Deceitful_Frank]

[Edited on 3-10-2006 by Deceitful_Frank]
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Rosco Bodine
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 6281
Registered: 29-9-2004
Member Is Offline

Mood: analytical

[*] posted on 3-10-2006 at 12:30


Your witness plate is likely way overmatched by that
large of a charge , and probably a 30-50 ml charge would
give better indication .

You should try picric acid in nitromethane too , as unlike
the other mixtures , it should be perfectly stable and
relatively safe , a liquid that may be ~ 75% of dissolved picric acid IIRC , and should have cap sensitivity as
well as metal cutting brisance .
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Bert
Super Administrator
*********




Posts: 2705
Registered: 12-3-2004
Member Is Offline

Mood: " I think we are all going to die. I think that love is an illusion. We are flawed, my darling".

[*] posted on 5-10-2006 at 05:47


Has the solution of picric acid in nitromethane been tried? Do you have any data on the solubility of ammonium picrate in nitromethane?
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Rosco Bodine
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 6281
Registered: 29-9-2004
Member Is Offline

Mood: analytical

[*] posted on 5-10-2006 at 07:39


Yeah , according to the US Army it has been tested .

35ml of ~ 50:50 mixture blows a 7" diameter hole
through 1/2" steel plate .

The patent says that at room temperature a solution
containing 87.5% picric acid in nitromethane is possible .

It is very likely that such a solution would result in a
cap sensitive mixture when soaked into dried NH4NO3
or NH4ClO4 .

Attachment: US5140908 nitromethane and picric acid liquid explosive.pdf (159kB)
This file has been downloaded 1302 times

View user's profile View All Posts By User
nitro-genes
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 917
Registered: 5-4-2005
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 5-10-2006 at 10:38


Quote:
Originally posted by Rosco Bodine
It is very likely that such a solution would result in a
cap sensitive mixture when soaked into dried NH4NO3
or NH4ClO4 .


What would be the benefit of doing so, instead of using plain NM?! :P

ANNM in itself is sensitive enough and fires reliably from a #6 cap. The only value of the added picric acid to the NM is to increase the brisance, since PLX formulations are not very brisant alone. But if you just want to add it to alot of AP or AN the increased detonation pressure added by the TNP will be hardly noticed IMHO.

The mixture in the patent just looks like a PLX formulation with an added "bite". Other than that the acidity of the TNP might sensitize the mixture some more it looks to me that adding 50% of either PETN, ETN or TNT will have exactly the same effect. Not sure about their solubility in NM though...

[Edited on 5-10-2006 by nitro-genes]
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Rosco Bodine
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 6281
Registered: 29-9-2004
Member Is Offline

Mood: analytical

[*] posted on 5-10-2006 at 12:18


Mainly the benefit is the stability of the mixture , increased density , and a way to get a whole lot of picric acid liquified at relatively low temperature . It would have most value in my estimation as a means of introducing picric acid as a very fine dispersion in
a powdered explosive oxidizer , or possibly into some
melts , or water gels . And it does add some power and density to nitromethane . This is just a bit of information
which could be useful when consideration of mixtures
involving nitromethane is relevant .
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Chris The Great
National Hazard
****




Posts: 463
Registered: 29-10-2004
Location: Canada
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 6-10-2006 at 00:00


For some people nitromethane might be a real pain to get, and adding picric acid to it not only increases the power a decent amount and makes it safer, but they also find it cheaper and easier to make picric than distill nitromethane from model car fuel.
View user's profile Visit user's homepage View All Posts By User This user has MSN Messenger
nitro-genes
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 917
Registered: 5-4-2005
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 6-10-2006 at 04:12


The mixture of TNP with NM does look vey powerfull, estimated detonation pressures in the same range of cast TNT, but with all the benefits of a liquid explosive. My point was mainly that if you would make a highly brisant mixture like this, it would be such a waste to just pour it over some AN...;)
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Rosco Bodine
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 6281
Registered: 29-9-2004
Member Is Offline

Mood: analytical

[*] posted on 6-10-2006 at 06:32


Picric acid is much more sensitive to initiation than is NM
and it is likely to produce mixtures of increased sensitivity
and brisance , and increased density , as well as lowered
volatility over mixtures using NM alone or NM with xylene
for example as an extender . The combination of NM and picric acid in high proportion could be used for the sensitizing component for NH4NO3 or NH4ClO4 . When
heated slightly , an even more concentrated solution
of picric acid in NM may be possible than the 87.5% possible at room temperatrure , so the NM may be thought of as almost a " melting aid " for picric acid ,
in producing a mixture from which will crystallize some
of the picric acid during cooling . This could be useful
in creating mixtures with explosive oxidizers which are
blended warm , because when cooled there will be
dispersed crystals of picric acid trapped in the spaces
between the crystals of oxidizer , along with liquid which
is also a sensitizer . This system should be a more
sensitive and brisant mixture than usual kinepak type
mixtures where NM alone or NM plus xylene is used ,
possibly having substantially higher performance .
View user's profile View All Posts By User
quicksilver
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 1820
Registered: 7-9-2005
Location: Inches from the keyboard....
Member Is Offline

Mood: ~-=SWINGS=-~

[*] posted on 6-10-2006 at 20:00


IIRC NM is hygroscopic. Would this have any effect on the stablity and / or proformance of the mix? Seeing as how the length of time required to obtain water from the air would also introduce an element of evaporation I suppose the point is moot; but still I am wondering if such a thing is an issue. With the KinePac material the NM is a sealed pouch, opened at the point of usage. This would seemingly demand the same proceedure and thus a Hell of a lot of mixing, no?



View user's profile View All Posts By User
Rosco Bodine
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 6281
Registered: 29-9-2004
Member Is Offline

Mood: analytical

[*] posted on 6-10-2006 at 22:54


It would probably not really require mixing at all .
Simply tap down the container to settle the crystals of the NH4NO3 or NH4ClO4 , and pour the liquid onto the material , where after sitting idle for a few minutes the effect would be like pouring water on a sponge .

In a one quart motor oil bottle or a gallon antifreeze jug ,
this composition would probably also be a reactive target . And it would very likely be storage stable in
a sealed container .
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Deceitful_Frank
Hazard to Self
**




Posts: 82
Registered: 5-11-2005
Member Is Offline

Mood: Pensive

[*] posted on 6-10-2006 at 23:37


Yes, though with kinepak type compositions the partical size of the AN should be small enough to hold on to the liquid sensitizer but be large enough to allow a half decent density.

Sure, repeated activation and microscopic particle sizes do promote homogenuity but try getting this material over 1g/cc in the charge container by hand...

Ive found that by using purely AN and NM (no xylene) in a 4:1 ratio by mass (slightly O2+), and if the AN is baked just twice and ground well in a pestle, it just about holds onto the NM and in the following test I was easily able to acheive a dry, sensitive charge of 1.1g/cc density.

Its not the experiment I had planned as I couldnt lay my hands on the bottle of nitric acid but I think its an entertaining video all the same. Strangely, the Kinepak blew the 7.5mm thick witness plate into THREE peices... should have listened to Rosco! oh, and you also get to see my second ever failed detonation!

Enjoy:

http://media.putfile.com/Please-work-17

Its a 22 meg file that takes a few minutes to load so you will need to be patient ::D

[Edited on 7-10-2006 by Deceitful_Frank]

[Edited on 7-10-2006 by Deceitful_Frank]
View user's profile View All Posts By User
MephistosMinion
Harmless
*




Posts: 23
Registered: 16-1-2005
Location: Tasmania
Member Is Offline

Mood: Very Tired

[*] posted on 22-12-2007 at 18:19


Part B of 2 part epoxy works... Works well...
View user's profile Visit user's homepage View All Posts By User This user has MSN Messenger
grndpndr
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 508
Registered: 9-7-2006
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 29-6-2008 at 03:05


Quote:
Originally posted by nitro-genes
The mixture of TNP with NM does look vey powerfull, estimated detonation pressures in the same range of cast TNT, but with all the benefits of a liquid explosive. My point was mainly that if you would make a highly brisant mixture like this, it would be such a waste to just pour it over some AN...;)


I looked over the patent several times and I coudnt see any improvement using a mixture of TNP/NM up to the maximum NM content over a similar charge of TNP?As NM IS so difficult for most of us to obtain I failed to see the advntage in the witness plates and mix ratios over plain TNP?"estimated detonation pressures in the sAme range of cast TNT"? TNP has a higher VOD than TNT alone:(

[Edited on 29-6-2008 by grndpndr]
View user's profile View All Posts By User
497
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 778
Registered: 6-10-2007
Member Is Offline

Mood: HSbF6

[*] posted on 2-7-2008 at 01:09


Another possible high powered explosive solvent for picric acid is methyl nitrate. I don't know anything about the solubility, but MN is substantially more powerful and brisant than nitromethane and also easier to make than it is to get nitromethane for most of us. I know MN is a bit unstable, maybe the picric acid would help, or maybe the addition of a third compound to help the solubility and/or stability? It would surely have ungodly brisance.

And before anyone brings up MEKP, no TNP is not soluble in it, I've tried it. In fact a roughly 100g charge of about 1:2 MEKP/AP:TNP failed to detonate the TNP, simply covered the surrounding snow in yellow dust. It was only ignited by a fuse though.

Someone really needs to figure out an OTC synthesis of nitromethane...

Edit: Nitromethane can be synthesized with at least 60% yield from sodium nitrite and bicarbonate reacted for a few hours with excess methyl chloride (bromide, iodide). Doesn't look too hard, methyl halides shouldn't be too hard to synthesis and sodium nitrite is OTC. Methyl iodide boils at 42*C so the process could possibly be done near 1 atm. Nitromethane is supposedly not soluble in methyl halides so separation is simple. I'm thinking a pressure cooker could work well as a reaction vessel.

I doubt it Zinc. MEKP seems to be a very bad solvent for almost anything.

[Edited on 2-7-2008 by 497]
View user's profile View All Posts By User
 Pages:  1    3  4

  Go To Top