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IrC
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[*] posted on 28-8-2014 at 14:57


Quote: Originally posted by zts16  
Well, the problem with letting people walk around proudly displaying their guns is that although they may be perfectly aware in their own heads that they don't plan on shooting anybody, anyone else who sees them will have no idea whether they're just an innocent freedom lovin' 'murrican or someone who's about to start shooting people. I'd certainly feel very uncomfortable seeing someone in a restaurant with an assault rifle, and would probably leave.


I would also leave for similar reasons although I firmly believe living in excess fear is not living at all. You just do not walk around with high powered semi auto rifles whether on slings or not in polite society. 30 years in downtown Phoenix I never went out with less than a .357 or a .45 auto on my hip. I would never have considered carrying a rifle. If you were ever in a situation a weapon was required only an idiot would choose a rifle in close quarters. By the time you swung it around and aimed you would be lead heavy. No speed with such a weapon. Also even in areas carrying is common, a rifle speaks intimidation not self defense. If you carry a weapon in society carry with discretion or stay home. It is not about what is legal it is about what is acceptable in polite society and these rifle toting fools only serve to sway the public mindset into allowing more rights of self defense to be legislated away. Idiots politically shooting their own feet, nothing more. They do us harm not good because intimidation is all they accomplish. Not awareness of rights as they so often claim.

An armed society is a polite society. This is not just a saying it is a fact. People are far less prone to be abusive if they realize consequences may be dire for them. In 91 there was a string of gang initiations shooting people on the freeways. I had a dual holster and carried a pair of matching .45's one on each side. That got looks often, most normally see someone only carrying a single sidearm usually discretely, the proper way. I never went anywhere my guns were not welcome. I was never bothered by people and never ended up in a dangerous situation, mostly because the wise pay attention to their surroundings. Yet so many I knew in 30 years there that chided me eventually ended up telling a story of the day they got robbed. I never did. My own sister walked across the street to a 7-11 with her 10 year old son and after crossing at the light a 17 year old walked up grabbed her son by the collar, held him up off the ground and pointed a .38 at her demanding her money or he would shoot them both. No cops anywhere in sight in the middle of the day. That was right off 43rd Ave between Camelback and Bethany Home, if you know the area you know how busy and how much traffic is there. The punk had no fear and did not care that likely 500 people saw him. Yet no one helped. Too afraid. After that she started carrying as well and never made fun of me again. Also, she was never robbed again.





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[*] posted on 28-8-2014 at 17:47


Well I just thought I'd put this out there: Everybody in Australia thinks it absolutely nuts you guys can walk around carrying guns.
From an outsiders perspective it seems obvious that less guns = less shooting, but I can understand that in a society where guns are already prevalent it may seem like a good idea to carry a gun yourself, even if only for self-defence.
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[*] posted on 28-8-2014 at 19:09


Yes, I agree with the last two posts to the extent that while I have no desire to carry a gun myself, I don't exactly have a problem with people carrying in a discreet and non-flashy way, as described by IrC if it makes them feel comfortable (as long as there are strict regulations regarding who can own guns, i.e. only sane people with no criminal history). Carrying a rifle around is completely pointless. The only purpose it serves is showing off and gaining attention. People who carry such weapons are a nuisance, like someone who drives around with no muffler on their car on purpose.



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[*] posted on 28-8-2014 at 19:20


I find it funny checking into a motel carrying all your guns( buck hunting, not shenanigans) wasn't even about to leave them in the truck for some crack head to steal. a couple of times, some of the other guests found it startling, as they opened their rooms to go out for dinner and see us walking down the hall with 2-3 guns apiece. we were all wearing camo and talking politely to eachother, so it deff didn't come off like we were storming the place. we would just smile and nod, mention something about opening day was in two days and then the look of relief came over them...

this is cali, and there is no open carry. but they were all in cases, some with locks. we hunt on public land and earn our meat, no guided BS. the only reason I mention this, is I have been around guns all my life, and the couple times in a hotel were the only times I ever interacted with the general public w/ firearms. I try to stay away from places where you would need one in public. give me forests, hills, mountains and beaches any day, but for god's sake, don't drag me into the city :P
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[*] posted on 29-8-2014 at 01:40


Quote: Originally posted by Oscilllator  
Well I just thought I'd put this out there: Everybody in Australia thinks it absolutely nuts you guys can walk around carrying guns.
From an outsiders perspective it seems obvious that less guns = less shooting, but I can understand that in a society where guns are already prevalent it may seem like a good idea to carry a gun yourself, even if only for self-defence.


I think it is more nuts for a people to willingly surrender their arms, especially since fairly recent history (<100 years) is proof that even 'good governments' can go very bad. "less guns = less shooting"; How sad it would be to have a knife or a club do you in because you had nothing to defend yourself with. Even in a nation without guns. If the attacker is very large or in numbers their 'hand tools' will be as dangerous to you as any firearm. Likely more painful as well. Also for proof of concept a comparison must be included in the rate of gun deaths before and after you gave up your arms. Did it help that much to lower the rate? Or is it worse? I do not know but I am sure those stats exist somewhere.

Until you can show me a world without a single criminal or evil person in it you cannot show a world where there is zero possibility that one day you will become a victim of violence. Even down under. You will find that guns are owned by citizens in many nations, and in many only rarely or not at all. By this I mean citizens legally allowed ownership by their laws.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_of_guns_per_capita_by_co...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overview_of_gun_laws_by_nation

An old saying "if guns are outlawed only outlaws have guns". Look at gun deaths per 100k people per year.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-re...

In Mexico citizens outside of special circumstances cannot own guns yet their rate 11.17 is higher than the US 10.3.

Argentina 10.05
Brazil 19.03
Colombia 28.14
El Salvador 46.85
Greece 4.76
Guatemala 36.38
Honduras 64.8
Jamaica 39.74
Panama 17.6
South Africa 21.51
Swaziland 37.6
Uruguay 14.01
Venezuela 50.9

Even in one of your 'civilized' nations close to (or part of Europe; I am unfamiliar with the politics over there) Greece, the rate is nearly half that of the US and we're talking a much smaller country.

Brazil "extremely severe restrictions were made by the federal government since 2002 making it virtually impossible to obtain a carry permit". Yet the rate above is 19.03, nearly twice the US. In fact in these nations with rates several times the US, the laws are at the same time some of the most restrictive. Which reinforces "if guns are outlawed only outlaws have guns". I find it odd that I hear many speak very often about the US, while never actually doing a comparison elsewhere. Why is that? Because it does not suit your preconceived 'politically correct notions'? Why is it people in other countries are constantly complaining about gun ownership here yet never mention countries where the rate is 3 or 4 or 5 or 6 times higher? Not a word ever. Neither is any thought given to the legal ownership rates in comparison to these numbers.

My main point is no matter what you may think of guns here, there, or anywhere, I for one choose not to be a helpless victim who watches his family robbed tortured raped and murdered (or any combination) while whining 'if only I could have stopped this' or 'if only there was a cop around when you need one'. In simple terms I choose not to be a helpless sheep like victim if I can at all avoid it. One never knows when or where evil will strike or whether they will be able to prevail. Ask a Christian surrounded by ISIS in the Middle East right now if they wish they were armed and at least fight to survive rather than watching their small children's heads being chopped off and stuck on poles. Yes that has been and still is occurring over there right now and if you do not believe it you are a blind fool. Evil exists right now in this world in every single country and one must decide if they wish to be or not to be a helpless victim. Or do they want to show up at the pearly gates thinking to themselves 'it was only one guy, if only I could have defended myself'.




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[*] posted on 29-8-2014 at 06:20


Quote: Originally posted by Oscilllator  
Well I just thought I'd put this out there: Everybody in Australia thinks it absolutely nuts you guys can walk around carrying guns.
From an outsiders perspective it seems obvious that less guns = less shooting, but I can understand that in a society where guns are already prevalent it may seem like a good idea to carry a gun yourself, even if only for self-defence.


Everybody here in Australia thinks it's nuts?

Some of us here in Australia think it's nuts that our ridiculously bloated government likes to deal with just about every 'problem' by banning things, including anything that one might use to defend themselves. 'Nanny state' is becoming an understatement when it comes to Australia.
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[*] posted on 29-8-2014 at 06:31


Quote: Originally posted by IrC  
Quote: Originally posted by zts16  
Well, the problem with letting people walk around proudly displaying their guns is that although they may be perfectly aware in their own heads that they don't plan on shooting anybody, anyone else who sees them will have no idea whether they're just an innocent freedom lovin' 'murrican or someone who's about to start shooting people. I'd certainly feel very uncomfortable seeing someone in a restaurant with an assault rifle, and would probably leave.


I would also leave for similar reasons although I firmly believe living in excess fear is not living at all. You just do not walk around with high powered semi auto rifles whether on slings or not in polite society. 30 years in downtown Phoenix I never went out with less than a .357 or a .45 auto on my hip.



Isn't consciously equipping and carrying a weapon out everywhere you go somewhat indicative of "living in excess fear"?




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[*] posted on 29-8-2014 at 06:33


Quote:
. . . our ridiculously bloated government likes to deal with just about every 'problem' by banning things, including anything that one might use to defend themselves.

OTOH, your paranoia might be more easily treated than accidental gunshot wounds!

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[*] posted on 29-8-2014 at 06:46


Quote:
30 years in downtown Phoenix I never went out with less than a .357 or a .45 auto on my hip.

Thankfully, I can't even begin to imagine what that level of pervasive dread might feel like ─ but it seems to reflect a society that appears to West Europeans to be terminally screwed-up . . .

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[*] posted on 29-8-2014 at 07:29


Quote: Originally posted by hissingnoise  
Quote:
30 years in downtown Phoenix I never went out with less than a .357 or a .45 auto on my hip.

Thankfully, I can't even begin to imagine what that level of pervasive dread might feel like ─ but it seems to reflect a society that appears to West Europeans to be terminally screwed-up . . .



I don't know whatever happened to Phoenix, but I've never felt an urge to carry a firearm in downtown New York or downtown Chicago. I assure you that while the U.S. is pretty screwed-up in general, it's not to the level he's claiming. If we just stopped letting the mentally ill own handguns...




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[*] posted on 29-8-2014 at 09:32


Quote: Originally posted by No Tears Only Dreams Now  
Quote: Originally posted by hissingnoise  
Quote:
30 years in downtown Phoenix I never went out with less than a .357 or a .45 auto on my hip.

Thankfully, I can't even begin to imagine what that level of pervasive dread might feel like ─ but it seems to reflect a society that appears to West Europeans to be terminally screwed-up . . .



I don't know whatever happened to Phoenix, but I've never felt an urge to carry a firearm in downtown New York or downtown Chicago. I assure you that while the U.S. is pretty screwed-up in general, it's not to the level he's claiming. If we just stopped letting the mentally ill own handguns...


That's kind of a hard thing to do, especially with the amount of people that don't get the help they need or are so wrongly misdiagnosed, as in the case of my sister in law. She is bat shit crazy--paranoid and delusional. She claims she is infested with worms, and seriously pulls pieces of skin off of her from around her cuticles (delusional parasitosis) saying they are worms, and that insects swarm out of this crack in the corner of her ceiling and fly around, etc. I see nothing.

I don't know what kind of drugs she got in to, but wtf?!?. It's cases like these you have to watch out for, because up until now she hasn't been a threat to anyone else, and she can pull it together when someone makes a claim against her to where she sounds somewhat sane. So as far as the law is concerned, she is alright to buy a weapon.

If you ask me, it is a bizarre combination of borderline personality disorder, daddy and mommy issues, and drug abuse. Oh yeah, and her diagnosis is being treated with GHB and Adderall (I kid you not!). My personal opinion is that it isn't helping matters, but keeping her in what seems like a state of off and on stimulant psychosis. (I don't know anymore)

And I know her ex-boyfriend taught her how to shoot, and she might have a handgun--I am not sure.

I have been around guns from a VERY early age (hunting and target shooting), and after watching her this last year, I am not sure where I stand anymore. I don't want her around my family--she scares me.

[Edited on 29-8-2014 by Loptr]
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[*] posted on 29-8-2014 at 11:10


adamsium, trying to reason with liberals is pointless. I will prove it to you. Just wait and read the replies which follow this post.

Quote: Originally posted by hissingnoise  
Thankfully, I can't even begin to imagine what that level of pervasive dread might feel like


Quote: Originally posted by No Tears Only Dreams Now  
Isn't consciously equipping and carrying a weapon out everywhere you go somewhat indicative of "living in excess fear"?


Not at all hissingnoise, and No Tears Only Dreams Now. In fact I willfully chose to carry arms due to the realistic view that as long as a nonzero chance of evil coming my way exists I choose to be one not subject helplessly to it. For your point of view to have validity you should require your police and military's to also disarm. Why is it you do not? Might it be that evil does exist? That other nations might attack? Why don't you require every soul in the EU to disarm? Your citizens, police, military. Get rid of your nukes as well, your bombs, all weapons. Including clubs, pitchforks, anything one might defend themselves or their country with. I will sit back over here and watch lemming history unfold.

You are being invaded just as we are, in a few decades of out breeding you, your nation will no longer exist. I just read 'Mohammed' is the most popular name in Norway. I would have thought it was Thor. Oh wait, it was long ago. So two things are happening there, one a doom to the victims of crime on an individual basis, the other a doom to your nation as a whole. Pardon us 'crazy Americans' who choose not to pass silently into the night, into darkness. Whether as individuals who choose not to be a crime victim, or as citizens who choose not to see our nations demise. The founders were not thinking about hunting when they wrote the second amendment. Their thoughts were focused upon the possibility of tyranny in a future where government has gone dark.

One must wonder what the numbers are of innocent citizens murdered by evil people in the last hundred years and how they compare between the nations which comprise the EU, and America. Even if your murder rate per capita is lower today, how do the totals compare over a century? It is not only about self defense from crime, it is about the every generation or two incidents of mass murder by governments. If this were to happen again what would an unarmed populace do? Oh yeah we know, just study 1935 to 1945.

Liberals refuse to look realistically at facts, refuse to learn from history. Facts like 20 to 30 people are shot virtually every weekend in Chicago. In nearly all cases every weekend, every one of the shooters illegally in possession of a firearm. Phoenix is the number two kidnapping capital in the world.

Crime is aided by liberal policies such as letting criminals off too easy and too soon allowing them back out to do it again. Stories in the news abound if one only reads them.

I for one not only would not be such a victim, my actions would save down the road every single other soul doomed to be a victim if the criminal had not been stopped the one time they chose to victimize me. Yet I know you would never look at the FBI statistics on crime in your cities, nor the amount of guns fired defending the innocent. Ironically it is your liberal policies which have generated this rise in the crime rate. You libs just love illegal immigrants. Yet FBI stats prove their being allowed here in ever increasing numbers drastically increases those stats. That in fact virtually all of the kidnapping in Phoenix is done by illegals who are here illegally. No zts I will not bother giving links you would choose to disbelieve anyway. If you really want truth search for it with an open mind. Truth such as murder rates, DC, Detroit, on and on cities ruled by liberal policies which outlaw self defense having the very highest rates.

"If we just stopped letting the mentally ill own handguns... "

Are you implying here that I am mentally ill? Why else did you post this in response to my post? Do you think you are so intelligent a clever thinly veiled despicable accusation against a member of SCM would go unnoticed?

Attacking 'to the man' in debate is sure sign of lack of standing for your position.

On another note this is one reason I like the fact the left hates guns. Who is it always stating 'liberalism is a mental disorder'?

"I assure you that while the U.S. is pretty screwed-up in general, it's not to the level he's claiming."

If you are going to state in your own words what you claim I said then quote my precise words. Otherwise all you do is quote your own version of what you think I said. The US was at 10.3, less that most of the countries I listed. Far less than many. In 30 years in Phoenix I saw a lot of crime, I knew many victims. I however was not one of them.

Also: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mXCUIeC__9g




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[*] posted on 29-8-2014 at 11:54


Quote:
Are you implying here that I am mentally ill? Why else did you post this in response to my post?

It's pretty obvious, to me at any rate, that he was simply referring to mentally ill people in general ─ why you'd arbitrarily assume he had you in mind is quite beyond me?


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