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Author: Subject: Homemade vs. Purchased
MadHatter
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[*] posted on 24-12-2004 at 14:27
Homemade vs. Purchased


Moderators, I wasn't sure where to start this topic. If it is in the wrong section, I ask
you to move it.

Many members produce their own compounds. I was curious about those who
make purchases to compare to their "homemade" materials.

I have made my own nitrates, chlorates, and perchlorates. But sometimes, I buy
from an online supplier to have a "standard" to judge it by. I'd be interested to
hear from members who have done this and their experiences on how their
"homemade" compares to "purchased". So far I've done very well. Besides the usual
tests for solubility and crystallization, I test in pyrotechnic comps. I haven't been
disappointed yet.




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FloridaAlchemist
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[*] posted on 24-12-2004 at 15:00
The more chemicals you make yourself the better


I too make my own chemicals from common available sources. After all , if we are good chem techs , this is the way to go.:o
For instance using fractional crystallization technique , mixing Nitrate of Soda (Sodium Nitrate) with Muriate of Potash (Potassium Chloride)you will get Saltpeter (Potassium Nitrate)
:)
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NERV
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[*] posted on 24-12-2004 at 17:01


I to make most of the chemicals I use in my lab. So far all of my home made stuff works just as well as anything I have purchased. There is also the fact that it avoids having to anwser questions for curiouse chemical suppliers. I also like the added challenge of making your own chemicals. You gain more knowlage from having to start from the basics then you do from just purchasing them. Even if all you have to do is distill your hardware store solvents to remove impurities.

A example is that of purification of ASA. I have done a comparison with purchased ASA in the manufacture of TNP, and with home purified ASA from asprin tablets. They both gave just about the same yeild. The home made stuff actuly gave me a slightly higher yeild, most likely due to other factors. Just the same it goes to show that home made chemicals can work just as well as purchased in most situations.




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cyclonite4
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[*] posted on 25-12-2004 at 04:47


I make my own chlorates/perchlorates through thermal decomposition of granulated chlorine [Ca(OCl)2.4H2O] because I can't find any non-suspicious sources. I know that electrolysis is cheaper, I'm just working on building a cell first.

I also extract chemicals from household products and repurpose certain chemicals, infact, I have bought little to no chemicals from a supplier, only a few common chemicals from hardware/pool stores.




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Dodoman
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[*] posted on 25-12-2004 at 14:52


I used to make my own KNO3 from diluted nitric acid. It worked well but drying it was a bitch so now i just buy it.
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[*] posted on 25-12-2004 at 15:07


I used to make lots of chemicals myself, for example:
- KNO3 from AN + K2CO3 (AN extracted from some fertilizer consisting of only CaCO3 + AN) and boiling off the NH3 and CO2:

2 NH4NO3 + K2CO3 ---heat--> 2 NH3 + CO2 + H2O + 2 KNO3

-NaNO3 (for making HNO3) from AN and Na2CO3
- KClO3 with a chlorate cell, NaCl and "lo-salt", but I had to run the cell for 2 days to make 20g of KClO3 (now I make it from weedkiller)
-And lots of other chemicals.

cyclonite4, it would be very nice if you could tell me how you made perchlorates! I'd greatly appreciate a simple way to make them from chlorates.
I tried thermal decomposition, and after 2 hours of keeping the KCLO3 molten in a porcelain dish (using a shitload of propane :mad: ) the mix still contained more than 20% of chlorate, confirmed by the sugar/H2SO4 test.
For making a perchlorate cell, I'd have to buy a special anode, which would be expensive.
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cyclonite4
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[*] posted on 25-12-2004 at 19:24


Actually to be honest, I tried thermal decomposition of chlorate (something I found on rec.pyrotechnics) but I don't think I actually converted much of it to the perchlorate.

My project was to make perchloric acid, but the project is on hiatus at the step of 'perchlorate formation'. Can you give me specifications on your chlorate cell, so I can tell if the electrolytic method is ineffecient, or your cell was just small?

BTW, The cost of special electrodes for ClO3 --> ClO4 would probably still work out cheaper. Are PbO2 electrodes effecient in the 'Cl --> ClO3' or 'ClO3 --> ClO4' step?

Then again, with thermal decomposition, you could just destroy the remaining chlorate (I can't remember how, search rec.pyrotechnics), and it would still work out economical (perchlorates are so bloody expensive).




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[*] posted on 27-12-2004 at 10:13


My cell had a volume of 200ml and a current of 2- 4 Amp. was flowing (don't remember exact amperage, but I used a regulated laboratory power supply which kept the amperage constant). The electrolyte was kept hot (60- 80°C) by the flowing current. The anode was an 8- mm graphite rod.

A chlorate cell is only effective when it's large, go to http://www.frogfot.com/synthesis.html
(look at the potassium chlorate synthesis from NaCl) to see an efficient chlorate cell which is able to make LOTS of KClO3 (and uses LOTS of electricity).
My cell was much too small to be efficient.

Better look around and find some NaClO3 weedkiller, KClO3 can be easily made from this.
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[*] posted on 28-12-2004 at 02:11


if any one has made nh4clo4 does it work vary well for a explosives after all it is hygroscopic or any perchlorate for that matter
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cyclonite4
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[*] posted on 28-12-2004 at 04:25


Quote:
Originally posted by garage chemist
Better look around and find some NaClO3 weedkiller, KClO3 can be easily made from this.


I used to be able to get this, but about 6 months ago it 'disappeared' from shelves. :(




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MadHatter
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[*] posted on 28-12-2004 at 20:38
Perchlorates


Garage Chemist, lots of threads on perchlorate production around. A more
sensitive test would be indigo carmine - good for almost down to 1 part per million.
Search this forum(keyword indigo) and you'll find my post along with pictures of
the test.

KClO<sub>4</sub>, I've made LOTS of perchlorates ! Search this forum and you'll find all
the information you need.

Cyclonite4, forget the weed killer ! Boil down some ordinary bleach for about
30 minutes - the NaClO will decompose into NaClO<sub>3</sub> and NaCl. BTW, chlorates
are easily destroyed with HCl. Just be outside when you do it - Cl<sub>2</sub> gas is
released.




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[*] posted on 28-12-2004 at 20:59


Quote:
BTW, chlorates
are easily destroyed with HCl. Just be outside when you do it - Cl2 gas is
released.

2NaClO3 + 4HCl ---> 2ClO2 + Cl2 + 2H2O +2NaCl

Yes, I have had acidification of chlorate explode very violently. Just a warning if your solution has a high precentage of chlorate contaminate remaining if somewhat dillute it shouln't pose too much of a problem though.

[Edited on 12/29/2004 by BromicAcid]




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MadHatter
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[*] posted on 28-12-2004 at 21:07
Chlorates and HCl


BromicAcid, won't argue with you on that 1 ! Even the indigo carmine test can get
very nasty if I haven't allowed the electrolysis to proceed long enough !




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cyclonite4
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[*] posted on 29-12-2004 at 03:38


Quote:
Originally posted by MadHatterCyclonite4, forget the weed killer ! Boil down some ordinary bleach for about
30 minutes - the NaClO will decompose into NaClO3 and NaCl. BTW, chlorates
are easily destroyed with HCl. Just be outside when you do it - Cl2 gas is
released.


I know it can be made by that method, except i choose to decompose Ca(OCl)2.4H2O (granualated pool chlorine) because i get better yields, and it works out cheaper.




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