dischem
Harmless
Posts: 10
Registered: 2-7-2014
Location: Canada
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Reactions with Sulfamic acid
Hi!
I'm relatively new to home chemistry, having just some first year uni courses under my belt. I was looking into the hydrolysis of Sulfamic acid into
ammonium hydrogen sulfate (or ammonium bisulfate) when dissolved in water. I mistakenly thought I could form sulfuric acid from it by reacting it with
HCl...so now I just have a bunch of ammonium bisulfate sitting around. There's very little information about it online, do you guys have any idea
about useful reaction mechanisms with the bisulfate? I was reading on this site about the electrolysis of it to generate H2O2, which would be useful.
Any other ideas of what I can do with it to turn it into something more useful?
I have a fairly complete set of equipment (distillation/reflux setup, heating mantle, magnetic stirrer, volumetric flasks, and electrolysis setup).
Thanks!
|
|
|
BobD1001
Hazard to Others
Posts: 182
Registered: 29-3-2013
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
One very neat use of sulfamic acid is its use in smoke generating compositions. Of course this is more pyrotechnic than chem, however it is a hugely
impressive smoke mixture. I can honestly say I have never seen any smoke composition outperform sulfamic acid in terms of smoke volume generated. The
composition is: ammonium perchlorate 42 parts, sulfamic acid 58 parts. Very tough to ignite however, best bet is to use silicon permanganate fuse, or
of course Mg ribbon.
[Edited on 3-7-2014 by BobD1001]
|
|
|
hyfalcon
International Hazard
Posts: 1003
Registered: 29-3-2012
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
This time of year a sparkler works to initiate any of my high temp reactions.
|
|
|
Texium
Administrator
Posts: 4508
Registered: 11-1-2014
Location: Salt Lake City
Member Is Offline
Mood: PhD candidate!
|
|
Oh yeah, I need to stock up on those! As well as punks, I find them really useful for igniting other stuff and I used up all the ones I had left over
from New Year's.
|
|
|
unionised
International Hazard
Posts: 5102
Registered: 1-11-2003
Location: UK
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
This seems to be about 4 months early.
|
|
|
hyfalcon
International Hazard
Posts: 1003
Registered: 29-3-2012
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
What's happens in November in the UK?
|
|
|
Metacelsus
International Hazard
Posts: 2531
Registered: 26-12-2012
Location: Boston, MA
Member Is Offline
Mood: Double, double, toil and trouble
|
|
Guy Fawkes day.
|
|
|
Brain&Force
Hazard to Lanthanides
Posts: 1302
Registered: 13-11-2013
Location: UW-Madison
Member Is Offline
Mood: Incommensurately modulated
|
|
It's US Indepedence Day. The day you should celebrate, unionised, because you finally got rid of us. 
Yeah, I can't get fireworks where I live, just party poppers and things.
At the end of the day, simulating atoms doesn't beat working with the real things...
|
|
|
papaya
National Hazard
Posts: 615
Registered: 4-4-2013
Member Is Offline
Mood: reactive
|
|
The question is too interesting to turn it into offtopic/detritus, I also want to hear good suggestions for it's use. for example SA + nitric acid
must give you N2O gas, wikipedia confirms this, but what concentration of nitric is needed for this?
|
|
|
TheChemiKid
Hazard to Others
Posts: 493
Registered: 5-8-2013
Location: ̿̿ ̿̿ ̿'̿'̵͇̿̿з=༼ ▀̿̿Ĺ̯̿̿▀̿ ̿ ༽
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
I can't even legally get poppers or sparklers. :/
When the police come
\( * O * )/ ̿̿ ̿̿ ̿'̿'̵͇̿̿з=༼ ▀̿̿Ĺ̯̿̿▀̿ ̿ ༽
|
|
|
Brain&Force
Hazard to Lanthanides
Posts: 1302
Registered: 13-11-2013
Location: UW-Madison
Member Is Offline
Mood: Incommensurately modulated
|
|
Sulfamate salts? Possibly make some acesulfame potassium?
TheChemiKid: I keep reading you're either in Sweden or the US - where are you having difficulty acquiring fireworks? I live in a really dry area, so
fireworks are illegal for fear of starting brush fires. Also I live in the most chemophobic state in the US.
It's always funny how people are SO afraid of fireworks.
At the end of the day, simulating atoms doesn't beat working with the real things...
|
|
|
Texium
Administrator
Posts: 4508
Registered: 11-1-2014
Location: Salt Lake City
Member Is Offline
Mood: PhD candidate!
|
|
Yesterday I went down to the fireworks stand about five minutes from my house with my dad and picked up a bunch of fireworks for tonight. There's
definitely no fear of them here in Texas! There's about 4 or 5 stands in between my house and my school.
|
|
|
Brain&Force
Hazard to Lanthanides
Posts: 1302
Registered: 13-11-2013
Location: UW-Madison
Member Is Offline
Mood: Incommensurately modulated
|
|
The southern US is generally good about fireworks, ESPECIALLY New Mexico, Alabama, and South Carolina. Not where I live, though. (CA)
At the end of the day, simulating atoms doesn't beat working with the real things...
|
|
|
Texium
Administrator
Posts: 4508
Registered: 11-1-2014
Location: Salt Lake City
Member Is Offline
Mood: PhD candidate!
|
|
Yep, on their way to Utah, my aunt and uncle saw a fireworks assortment at a gas station called "The Big Bang" which cost $600, was in a box
about 6 feet tall, 4 feet wide and 8 inches deep, and claimed to be the most powder allowed in one product by law. I think that was in New Mexico.
We never buy anything like that, but we had some decent stuff this year. What's really cool is to see the ones that the people in the wealthier
neighborhoods surrounding mine shoot off! They always get a lot more of the big stuff.
Aha, I managed to find a picture of the huge assortment: http://a2.tnt.ms/assets/products/lg/101206-Big-Bang-884f3441...
|
|
|
violet sin
International Hazard
Posts: 1475
Registered: 2-9-2012
Location: Daydreaming of uraninite...
Member Is Offline
Mood: Good
|
|
a great deal of this thread should be deleted outright. Now I'm not against banter about random things, but we have a place for that and I see a
bunch of posts by these members there any way.. so maybe don't off this thread straight out the gate with that.
so far the chem answers were weak and this is buggin me because I really like sulfamic acid. I think it is neat, cheap, available, useful and
under-appreciated. it is great for a bunch of things. the smoke screen bit was a nice off topic bit, thanks BobD1001. but the question asked wasn't
directly about sulfamic acid, more of a what to do with the ammonium bisulfate produced mistakenly.
I haven't had a whole lot of time to look into the bisulfate my self. but info seems about as spread out as most I found on sulfamic acid was.
http://books.google.com/books?id=ltNLAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA577&a...
interesting:
p 577. " if common salt is added to fused ammonium hydrogen sulfate, hydrogen chloride is evolved and ammonium sodium sulfate is formed. the
reaction is, however, incomplete and a small quantity of sulfite is formed. on further heating, ammonia is evolved and sodium hydrogen sulfate
produced."
p 577. " when ammonium chloride and ammonium hydrogen sulfate are heated with an excess of manganese dioxide, nearly 15% of the chlorine is evolved.
sodium chloride, under similar conditions, yields about 20% chlorine, whilst a mixture of ammonium chloride( 1 equiv), sodium hydrogen sulfate( 4
equivs), manganese dioxide( 4 equivs) and a little water, as much as 83% of the combined chlorine was obtained. ammonium sodium sulfate being formed
http://www.nrel.gov/docs/legosti/old/4279.pdf
solar energy storage: ammonium bisulfate cycle. kinda interesting they propose a method of using solar flux to separate the components of decomp
and is some plans, used additional metal sulfates to grab SO3 produced as pyrosulfates.
thats all I could find tonight, been a LONG day. Sulfamic acid it self is great for electrochem, and is one of the more soluble of the lead salts.
good for nickel and copper as well. I found some times you had to use amidosulfonic acid to find older papers on sulfamic acid. I will be reading up
on this more and will link anything interesting that comes up. all the papers I requested and or tracked down for sulfamic acid are on another
computer so I cant pop 'em up here now. sorry
|
|
|
violet sin
International Hazard
Posts: 1475
Registered: 2-9-2012
Location: Daydreaming of uraninite...
Member Is Offline
Mood: Good
|
|
alumina production from clay: http://www.minersoc.org/pages/Archive-CM/Volume_17/17-3-271....
"The technically promising processes involve heating mixtures of clays and ammonium salts, preferably ammonium sulphates (Grim, 1962; Ullmann, 1954),
because water-soluble aluminium salts are formed as the reaction products. These processes involve the following steps: (i) sulphating the alumina of
the clay by heating with (NH2)2SO4 at ~400~ or with (NH4)HSO4 solution in an autoclave at 200~ (ii) extracting the Al-sulphates by leaching with water
and converting them to aluminium hydroxide by precipitation with ammonia"
Microwave-assisted acetalization of pentaerythritol catalyzed by ammonium hydrogen sulfate( pdf):
http://www.chemistrymag.org/cji/2003/059071ne.htm
@dischem: and this is what I think you might like most...
Regeneration Of Sulfuric Acid From Sulfate Salts Via Hydrogen Peroxide:
http://www.ihs.com/products/chemical/technology/pep/reviews/...
" In this review we present a technical and economic evaluation of the conversion of ammonium bisulfate (ABS) generated in methionine and MHA
processes to sulfuric acid via the hydrogen peroxide route, based on the production of 130 million lb/yr (59,000 t/yr) of sulfuric acid at a U.S. Gulf
Coast location. Although any source of spent acid or sulfate salts may be used as feedstock."
all I have had time to look through tonight.
-Violet Sin-
edit: forgot a link
[Edited on 6-7-2014 by violet sin]
|
|
|
Mailinmypocket
International Hazard
Posts: 1351
Registered: 12-5-2011
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Sulfamic acid is a handy reagent to make nitrogen gas if you have sodium nitrite...
http://mattson.creighton.edu/N2/index.html
|
|
|
dischem
Harmless
Posts: 10
Registered: 2-7-2014
Location: Canada
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Quote: Originally posted by violet sin  | a great deal of this thread should be deleted outright. Now I'm not against banter about random things, but we have a place for that and I see a
bunch of posts by these members there any way.. so maybe don't off this thread straight out the gate with that.
so far the chem answers were weak and this is buggin me because I really like sulfamic acid. I think it is neat, cheap, available, useful and
under-appreciated. it is great for a bunch of things. the smoke screen bit was a nice off topic bit, thanks BobD1001. but the question asked wasn't
directly about sulfamic acid, more of a what to do with the ammonium bisulfate produced mistakenly.
I haven't had a whole lot of time to look into the bisulfate my self. but info seems about as spread out as most I found on sulfamic acid was.
http://books.google.com/books?id=ltNLAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA577&a...
interesting:
p 577. " if common salt is added to fused ammonium hydrogen sulfate, hydrogen chloride is evolved and ammonium sodium sulfate is formed. the
reaction is, however, incomplete and a small quantity of sulfite is formed. on further heating, ammonia is evolved and sodium hydrogen sulfate
produced."
p 577. " when ammonium chloride and ammonium hydrogen sulfate are heated with an excess of manganese dioxide, nearly 15% of the chlorine is evolved.
sodium chloride, under similar conditions, yields about 20% chlorine, whilst a mixture of ammonium chloride( 1 equiv), sodium hydrogen sulfate( 4
equivs), manganese dioxide( 4 equivs) and a little water, as much as 83% of the combined chlorine was obtained. ammonium sodium sulfate being formed
http://www.nrel.gov/docs/legosti/old/4279.pdf
solar energy storage: ammonium bisulfate cycle. kinda interesting they propose a method of using solar flux to separate the components of decomp
and is some plans, used additional metal sulfates to grab SO3 produced as pyrosulfates.
thats all I could find tonight, been a LONG day. Sulfamic acid it self is great for electrochem, and is one of the more soluble of the lead salts.
good for nickel and copper as well. I found some times you had to use amidosulfonic acid to find older papers on sulfamic acid. I will be reading up
on this more and will link anything interesting that comes up. all the papers I requested and or tracked down for sulfamic acid are on another
computer so I cant pop 'em up here now. sorry |
Wow, that's all really interesting information, thank you. I'm going to check in with my school tomorrow to see if I can get access to that report
about recovering sulfuric acid from ABS & AS. I was reading another thread about the production of hydrogen peroxide through the electrolysis of
ammonium bisulfate, (http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=2150), but it didn't look like a real conclusion was reached.
I'll throw some ABS in a beaker and try some of those reactions. Ammonia production looks pretty useful. I really prefer to synth my own chems rather
than buy them if I can manage.
Any thoughts on the thermal decomposition of sulfamic acid to N2, SO3, SO2 & H2O? I was thinking about doing that to produce SO3 and reacting it
with water to get my H2SO4, but I decided against it as I had no NaOH to scrub the SO2. I also had no idea how much of the sulfamic acid is going to
decompose into SO3 vs SO2.
|
|
|
symboom
International Hazard
Posts: 1143
Registered: 11-11-2010
Location: Wrongplanet
Member Is Offline
Mood: Doing science while it is still legal since 2010
|
|
Dissolving manganese dioxide in sulfamic acid is this posible it is a reducing agent
Forming manganese sulfamate
|
|
|
chloric1
International Hazard
Posts: 1070
Registered: 8-10-2003
Location: GroupVII of the periodic table
Member Is Offline
Mood: Stoichiometrically Balanced
|
|
Ammonium bisulfate can be reacted with stoichiometric amount of strontium chromate to make ammonium dichromate and strontium sulfate. You just
dissolve your ammonium bisulfate in sufficient water and heat on stirring hot plate and add your pale yellow strontium chromate and stir with heat to
digest. The slightly soluble strontium chromate will gradually turn into the white sulfate as reaction completes.
Most transition metal sulfamates like nickel sulfamate and copper sulfamate are highly soluble in water so you may be able to up your plating game to
electro forming small parts for jewelry and sculpture.
Fellow molecular manipulator
|
|
|
![[*]](images/xpblue/default_icon.gif){kind=icon}
