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Author: Subject: 3,4,5-trimethoxy-beta-nitrostyrene synthesis
enima
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[*] posted on 16-1-2005 at 19:00


heh yes, access to the benzaldehyde is definitely not something many people have and those who do are not making mescaline.

But reductions are fun to do. There is always the vanillin route, but then you would have to have access to dimethyl sulfate or some other nasty methylating agent.

What would be fun though is getting 1,2-dihydroxybenzene, convert it the the benzaldehyde and make dopamine.
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[*] posted on 16-1-2005 at 20:46


is Dopamine or Serotonine active I.V. or parental or it can't travel throught the Blood Brain Barrier? Then poke a hole in my head, and insert me a permanent cateter, if that mean emotion control.



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LeonardNimoy
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[*] posted on 18-1-2005 at 13:33


Quote:

(I'm sure there are trace amounts if not more present in products reduced by the Al/Hg method)


This not the case. Correctly performed, the mercury salt is completely reduced to elemental mercury. The solvent and A/B extraction ensures that no mercury passes through to the final stage of the reaction. We are talking parts per billion here. You get more mercury from your fillings.

Most people can excrete mercury and a low level of intake is not cumulative (contrary to popular belief).
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enima
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[*] posted on 18-1-2005 at 14:17


Well I was speaking about the elemental mercury. Mainly it is a personal (paranoid) concern.

Also handling solvent post reaction is much safer with the zinc/magnesium method.

But yea mercury is still in _trace_ amounts. \

If need be a recrystallization / distillation can be performed to get a more pure product. (which you should be doing anyway if the final project is for 'lab rat' tests.)
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[*] posted on 18-1-2005 at 16:33


With good technique, mercury is mainly a desposal problem. Mercury waste should not be disposed of in normal refuse where it will end up in a landfill and polluting groundwater nor down the drain etc. Clearly label it as mercury contaminated waste and dispose of properly. Ask the council where to dispose of your cracked but unspilled mercury thermometer etc.
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[*] posted on 18-1-2005 at 17:00


I'm sorry I am sort of getting the thread off topic again, but I was just reading the huge Rosco vs. enima debate and I am still kind of muddled as to how harmful mescaline is. As for ecstacy, it is probably worse for your brain long-term than psychadelics. However what's up with mescaline? Is it something that I can do regularly? Simply put if I was to choose between regularly using shrooms and LSD vs. mescaline which once would be less harmful to me in the long run?



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enima
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[*] posted on 18-1-2005 at 18:24


I wouldn't recommend using mescaline weekly, or any psychedelic. People who use psychedelics on a regular basis (ie once a week)become "weird" and slighly disassociated from reality.

Also mescaline lasts 14-20 hours depending on the dose you take, with a 300mg dose, you will experience a 14 hour 'trip'. With a higher dose, say 600-650mg. You will have a full blown mescaline experience, expect it to last the 22 hours.

I am talking about time from injestion. On my debate with Rosco, my point was, it is the mechanism that mescaline worked in, (the same mechanism most psychedelics use) that caused disorders like hppd. The found that 5HT-2A receptors down-regulate when bound by mimics serotonin. When something binds a serotonin receptor, it causes it to fire in a pattern that is irregular from normal firing. Anyway, as a result of down regulation there are not many receptors aval. for serotonin to bind to and inhibit receptor firing (So the receptor fires in a manner which the brain does not have control over). People generally do not go insane. I think by insane Rosco meant schizophrenia/psychosis? But people can develope something called HPPD. HPPD is very far from insanity.

I recommend that when using mescaline you still to lower doses. Most people find them more pleasant. The duration will be less and chances of getting something like HPPD are reduced. At high doses of any psychedelic is it possible to schizophrenic type delusions. (Psilocin, LSD, 2CX, DOX, MDA, all will do this)

MDA can cause HPPD, and MDMA is slighly hallucinogenic, the more you use it, the higher doses you use it as, the more hallucinogenic it begins to become. (by no means do most consider it a psychedelic because hallucinations are generally subtle)
MDA does a very good job at inhibting the 5HT-2A receptors.

MDMA usage, on a regular basis will result in memory loss, attention deficit, social anxiety mainly because of the loss of serotonin axons. Axons do regrow, however this process can take years depending on dose.
It is possible to limit the brain damage of MDMA via dopamine reuptake inhbitors, and reutake inhibitors such as prozac/zoloft.

My Point: Mescaline will not make you go insane, however you may develope HPPD. MDMA is a reward experience but does come at the cost of brain damage.

If you opt to use the mescaline, do not it on a weekly basis, keep you doses on the lower end of the spectrum (this is true of all psychedelics). The reason I recommend this is because of the HPPD.

Annyway, becareful with drug use (A recent study came showing there is a correlation between marijuana and psychosis and marijuanas interaction with the dopamine system.)
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enima
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[*] posted on 18-1-2005 at 18:34


Another idea about mescaline synthesis.
(the goal to avoid methylating agents, making its synthesis easy and less hazardous).

1. p-anisaldehyde is dibrominted using a powerful halogenation mechanism. (One that is able to brominate nitrobenzene with a 95% yield). (the paper uses NBS, FeCl3, and acetonitrile as the solvent.) This is stirred at room temp.

2. Nucleaophillic substitution. Using sodium methoxide, you could replace the bromine with methoxy groups, this would leave you with a 3,4,5-trimethoxy configuration.

3. Hendry condensation, Reduction. (already been covered here).

I have the following questions concerning this. I know p-hydroxybenzaldehyde can be dibrominated using just bromine. My question is would powerful be capable of nitrobenzene methylation be capable of brominating both the 3,5 (which are favored by the methoxy and aldehyde groups). Even when dealing with two deactivating groups.

Attachment: Bromination of Deactived Aromatics.pdf (67kB)
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[*] posted on 18-1-2005 at 18:44


There is no way in hell anyone would do mescaline weekly, mescaline itself wont alow it. Altho that might not make sence to the straightedged it does make sence to pysconaughts.

The axons of cells are never destroyed, thats ridiculas, sert's (seretonin reuptake terminals) simply move from the cell membrane and retract back into the cell or are inactivated by a protein, as habitual use of MD(M)A occurs, in order to adapt to the bodys draining seretonin reserves.




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Mendeleev
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[*] posted on 18-1-2005 at 19:07


I understand that weekly psychadelic use probably is bad, but what I gathered from Rosco's post was that it could make you schizophrenic. Either way would LSD be considered more gentle than mescaline?



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enima
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[*] posted on 18-1-2005 at 19:10


Darkfire, you have support for that because I have seen anything about that, serotonin axons according to many articles are destroyed. They are destroyed via radical oxidation. Axons do regenerate though.

3-methoxy-4-methylamphamine drains serotonin reserves and the brain does not "retract" its axons reuptake gates in this case. Same for other nontoxic serotonin releasers. Axonal damage can be seen via straning of the serotonin receptors. From the pictures I have seen the axon becomes much shorter. Also it doesn't make sense, if you are wanting to reduce the amount of serotonin you want those gates working, (prozac prevents the gates from working) so they can reuptake the serotonin that lies in the synaptic clef. The serotonin taken up is reused.

The damage caused by human consumption of MDMA maybe far less than that of the rats used for these studies. The doses given to rats are about 4-6mg/kilogram, that would make the avg for a 150lb male 272mg (2.7x human dose) to 409mg. (4x human dose)

The theory is not rediculous, what is though is a theory that MDMA causes programmed cell death.

---
Most people consider mescaline to be a very gentle psychedelic. Even psychedelic mushrooms bring on more intense (but shorter lasting of course) experiences.
Psychedelic phenethylamines are very gentle creatures. I have several friends that have used mescaline many times before and non of them are crazy.


[Edited on 19-1-2005 by enima]
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[*] posted on 18-1-2005 at 21:17


Its not a toxic effect its nueroadaptation, the compound you are talking about may have a reduction of radical damage, but it will cause the same neuroadaption, as it is due to an exess of serotonin in the synapse and not caused by the drug itself.

Granted total axon damge has been show to occur after frequent heavy use, it has also been show that its not the MDMA that does it its some other chemical entering, most attribute this to dopamine.

[Edited on 19-1-2005 by Darkfire]




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[*] posted on 19-1-2005 at 18:50
REf : 3-5- dimethoxy-4....dimethylamines


I haven't read the whole thread so if this is a repeat ...sorry...solo

A new route to 3,5-dimethoxy-4-something-phenethylamines
by Labrat

Attachment: 345labrat.html (6kB)
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Darkfire
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[*] posted on 19-1-2005 at 22:43


Quote:
Originally posted by Blind Angel
is Dopamine or Serotonine active I.V. or parental or it can't travel throught the Blood Brain Barrier? Then poke a hole in my head, and insert me a permanent cateter, if that mean emotion control.


They cant be IVed becuase that will only bring them to the nerve cells themselves increasing their stockpiles if they are low, from depletion such as over use of MDMA. It wont release them into the synapse.




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[*] posted on 21-1-2005 at 21:02
A few comments - other view of the situation


Enima :

I personally feel that mild so-called HPPD is sign of a healthy mind, consider yourself lucky if you are able to enjoy this on a regular basis. Usually it is more a chance than a disorder, as long as you can remain compatible enough to survive in the sick society. Why do you want to reduce HPPD? Not too intense it is a gift. Good and natural. The most probable after effect is an increase of wisdom, call it insanity. As you know insanity is a minority issue, altough when you become a part of this minority your conviction is that the masses are insane and a few alike ppl are sane.
Quote:
MDA can cause HPPD, and MDMA is slighly hallucinogenic, the more you use it, the higher doses you use it as, the more hallucinogenic it begins to become. (by no means do most consider it a psychedelic because hallucinations are generally subtle).


MDMA give more what I call "hallucinogenic" effects than psychedelics give (each used in normal dose). MDMA it is not what I would call psychedelic IMHO, it give practically no visionnary effect, altough it could bee called "hallucinogenic" at normal dosage. Well Of course it is still only slightly hallucinogenic, its not BZ or datura ;-). Psychedelics are visionnary materials, "hallucinogen" is misleading here. This rambling is just a vocabulary issue, it doesnt really matter.

Quote:
My Point: Mescaline will not make you go insane, however you may develope HPPD. MDMA is a reward experience but does come at the cost of brain damage.

If you opt to use the mescaline, do not it on a weekly basis, keep you doses on the lower end of the spectrum (this is true of all psychedelics). The reason I recommend this is because of the HPPD.


M would generally be much more rewarding that MDMA IMHO. It depends of the issues the labrat would want to adress of course. Taking a good medium dose of M (400 mg of the sulfate for instance) should not be a problem if you are in a good set/setting. Dont be afraid of the so called HPPD but use the good compound with respect and dont be a moron.

Quote:
Annyway, becareful with drug use (A recent study came showing there is a correlation between marijuana and psychosis and marijuanas interaction with the dopamine system.)


Personally I consider marijuana a much more difficult substance to dealt with than say M or other usual PEAs. It is a very dark, strong and negative compound cannabis. Not very insightfull neither, but alot of paranoid issues. It is habituating too. I would definitely skip on that one. ;-)


Professor Mendeleev :

Variation of the toxics is the key : be sure to eat more or less regularly each of them tryptamines, PEAs and ergolines by rotating their use aiming for the maximization of spectrum of insightfull effects. I agree with Darkfire on the regular M issue. It is a profound experience, better decant it with other compounds inbetween sessions ;-)


Rosco :

Personally I think you are completely misleading. I cannot agree with you on any point. Btw good luck with your future trial of the Rage Compound, you will enjoy that happy experience I am sure ;-)


I really hate the way Science take the charm away, especially in this utterly unmaterialistic, unfactuable and hard to monitor issue of the human mind. Science as nothing to do here. Eat and learn from yourself through direct experience. Threads like this one is loss of time, better study art of o’chem instead as Traugott pointed out.


[Edited on 22-1-2005 by Ullmann]
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Darkfire
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[*] posted on 22-1-2005 at 01:14


I love your post. People wanna label anything as disorders no days. HPPD is what goverment calls blinding flashes of insight. "HPPD" brought me to my knees several times. I was nearly in tears two memorable times within the first week or so after my mescaline trip. At the pound i saw those dogs, and my hart was just breaking, and i saw this small new plant just stating to grow through this crack of dirt all alone on the way home from school. Some times it bored on pysocosis and cuase extreme depression. Then i realised that it was just what other thought of it i felt that way. since then i treat mescaline like its a god to me. It took me from the average type of person, and forged this new version of me, more powerful and just and faithful, who i am now is light years above who i was. The self esteem and self belife i poses now is beyond words, it was a long hard road out of the hell mescaline forced me in, but its worth it. http://www.angelfire.com/theforce/highexplosives/DarkfiresSh... I wrote that soon after, its a nice long trip report.



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[*] posted on 23-1-2005 at 06:52
some thoughts on the issue


Quote:

The damage caused by human consumption of MDMA maybe far less than that of the rats used for these studies. The doses given to rats are about 4-6mg/kilogram, that would make the avg for a 150lb male 272mg (2.7x human dose) to 409mg. (4x human dose)



Have you seen what many of those pill poppers on trance parties ingest on a single evening? Some of them do this every weekend, and many do not care at all about increased neurotoxicity caused by combining MDMA with other stimulants as amphetamine or cocaine. And we are not even mentioning the additional effects of excessive alcohol consumption. I'd say the damage could be even worse but we'll have to see about that in 10 or 20 years from now.. ;)

Give me one normal dose of a safe psychedelic with its HPPD package any day of the week. :)

Of course if everyone would do it the Shulgin way things would be different, but IMO it is more likely that hell will freeze over first.


About 3-MeO-4-Me-amphetamine, I'd be very careful with that one. From PiHKaL:
http://www.drugsinfo.net/pihkal/pihkal123.html
Quote:

Some years ago a report appeared in the forensic literature of Italy, of the seizure of a small semitransparent capsule containing 141 milligrams of a white powder that was stated to be a new hallucinogenic drug. This was shown to contain an analogue of DOM, 3-methoxy-4-methylamphetamine, or MMA. The Italian authorities made no mention of the net weight contained in each dosage unit, but it has been found that the active level of MMA in man is in the area of 40-60 milligrams. The compound can apparently be quite dysphoric, and long lived.


I can't access Rhodium's mirror site now, but there is mentioned 3-hydroxy-4-methylamphetamine, which can be assumed to be one of the primary metabolites of MMA, and the pharmacological profile didn't really look healthy at all.

Remember when 4-methylthioamphetamine was being promoted and sold as a safe legal non-neurotoxic MDMA-like compound? Caveat emptor!
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[*] posted on 23-1-2005 at 09:11


Mescaline is used as a standard to scientificly rate other drugs of the same sort - nothing more nothing less.

I don't undestand all this about 16 hour trips - erowid states the trip lasts more like 8hours. Perhaps your body is differnet from most.

All this talk of journals is counterproductive. Journals can be wrong as is the many cases of misleading tests on other drugs throughout the years.

Anyway if one is to look at Lab Tips(yes I know its totse) they will see a great post detailing the synth of benzaldehyde(and more) using very common OTC chems and toluene.

As far as mescaline goes I think its up there with shrooms and LSD25 in terms of safety. Erowid says know your body and mind and that should be done. Anyone reading the trip reports would agree that the benefits outweight the risks for these drugs - used correctly they are very good
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Darkfire
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[*] posted on 23-1-2005 at 10:52


Erowids a good source, but its got its mistakes. 8 hours is bullshit.



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[*] posted on 23-1-2005 at 11:04


I think that for you it lasted more. For most people it lasts 8 hours.

Face it - you fucked your trip up:
No sitter
Unknown dose
Parents were home - your were inside at night

Better would be with friends, outside in the day time with a known dose of extract not juice

Poor thinking leads to poor planning leads to a bad trip
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Darkfire
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[*] posted on 23-1-2005 at 11:14


My trip wasnt bad, and i knew what i was doing and getting into and i had things that needed resolution between me and my parents. Tripping is suposed to be done alone in silent darkness in high doses. Thats what pyscidelics really are, not thing to have fun with friends. Tripping isnt suposed to be fun. Ive talked to at least 4 other people who have done a varity of doses from a normal light dose up to 1 gram of mescaline. Trips ranged from 12 to 48 hours. Never 8.



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[*] posted on 26-1-2005 at 09:14


Quote:
Originally posted by Darkfire
Tripping isnt suposed to be fun.

Shulgin would certainly disagree with you. So do I.:)
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[*] posted on 26-1-2005 at 15:20


If its fun in the truest sence of the world i guess your corect. Its not fun like getting drunk is. It much more than that.

A touch of terror gives the stamp of validity to an experience because it means, "This is real." We are in the balance. We read the literature, we know the maximum doses, the LD-50 and so on. But nevertheless, so great is one's faith in the mind that when one is out in it one comes to feel that the rules of pharmacology do not really apply and that control of existence on that plane is really a matter of focus of will and good luck.

I'm not saying that there is something intrinsically good about terror. I'm saying that, granted the situation, if one is not terrified then one must be somewhat out of the full dynamics of what is happening. To not be terrified means that one is either a fool or that one has not taken a compound that paralyses the ability to be terrified. I have nothing against hedonism, and I certainly live my life in that philosophy. But the experience must move one's heart, and it will not move the heart unless it deals with issues of life and death. If it deals with life and death then it will move one to fear, it will move one to tears, it will move one to laughter.




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[*] posted on 27-1-2005 at 15:28


Well, it certainly can be an exciting and scary experience. But (done properly) it's more fun than a barrel of monkeys. So I guess we're more or less in agreement.
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[*] posted on 27-1-2005 at 16:15


Fun is one adjective to describe it, but labled strictly as somethign to do for fun cuase your bored, is nothing short of insane.



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