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Author: Subject: Lead Picrate
Madog
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[*] posted on 30-11-2002 at 15:19
Lead Picrate


today i made some lead picrate, i took 1.2g of PbO, some isoproply alcahol and 2g of TNP and mixed them together, then i put it on my little hotplate made from a cofee machine and heated it, i stired and swirled it as it boiled a little. this whent on for about 6 minutes, then i shut the plate off and came back to it 20 minutes later to find that the isoproply alcahol kinda gelied. i shifted it around a bit and it mixed, this cause it to solidify more so if u tiped it upside down it wouldnt move (i later read that this would happen on powerlabs). then i let it sit for a couple more minutes and poured some more isoproply alcahol on it, mixed it around and filtered. i washed it with more alcahol. now its in the filter still wet and gooey, there seems to be a good amount there. i took a little and lit it, the alcahol burnt off and the lead picrate ignited with a pop and a crackle. it gave that nice characteristic purple flame that picrates have

this should be dry tomarrow for me to play with it, i will tell you the results:D




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ShockWave
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[*] posted on 30-11-2002 at 15:41


Sounds good to me !

Can someone tell me for how long this can be stored dry or wet ?
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trinitrotoluene
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[*] posted on 30-11-2002 at 16:25


I don't think you can store it for that like maybe like a few months. I think all picrates tend to become quite senistive as they age.



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Madog
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[*] posted on 30-11-2002 at 16:41


hrm, its relatively storage stable, i had potassium picrate stored for months. maybe i will put a little lead picrate aside for a couple months and see what hapens, do a little sensitiveity tests and stuff. i would like to see if this is a suitable primary, the main reason it interests me is because its easy to make and seems more or less storage stable, at least alot more than AP.

btw, the ratios and structure of lead picrate on powerlabs is wrong, i basicaly used his procedure with the real ratios and it seems to have worked well, i put it in my boiler room (the place with the heater thing for the house, its great for drying) and i cant wait to play with it




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Ramiel
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[*] posted on 1-12-2002 at 06:42
Science of sensitization


Could someone kindly explain the science behind sensitization, is it to do with a change in structure, reaction with the atmoshpere, or just dehydration/hydration?
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kingspaz
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[*] posted on 1-12-2002 at 08:24


watch out for Pb vapour when the stuff burns....can't be good for the brain cells...
if there is any change in sensitivity it will be down to hydration/dehydration. the salts should mimic TNP in storage stability. this means they are storage stable as a sample of TNP has not shown signs of deteriorating from 1860 (some date like that).
can anybody tell me why TNP refuses to react with Fe2O3?
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[*] posted on 1-12-2002 at 09:02


Maybe because three TNP molecules on one iron is too strained? Besides, oxides are rather unpredictable species when reacting with acids. I would try iron(II)carbonate if I were you.



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Madog
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[*] posted on 1-12-2002 at 11:46


wow, thats a long time, i was always lead to believe that TNP would last for years but after a while it would become unstable.

i pressed a little lead picrate 9in a .40 caliber shell and crimped the front (there was only a little, it was plenty far away from the place where it was crimped) i set it off in the sand box and it exploded nicely, i didnt find any shrapnel tho so the next one is gona go in a can or something, i wana see how deformed it is. has anyone ever used lead picrate to detonate anything? i might try useing a gram or so to detonate some PETN or MEKP dynamite.




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kingspaz
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[*] posted on 1-12-2002 at 13:28


if you pressed the lead picrate onto the PETN then you'd only need 0.25-0.5g and that would be plenty enough. less primary = less chance or premature detonation.
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Madog
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[*] posted on 1-12-2002 at 15:28


ok, cool, i think i will try that. itts pretty shock sensitive, i hit some with a hammer, it actualy seems less shock sensitive than AP though, which doesnt really surprise me, especicialy sience the lead picrate isnt really crystaline



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[*] posted on 2-12-2002 at 19:50
sensitive of MEKP


Hey madog, i read about MEKP dynamite in a post, i was wondering just how sensitive and stable is MEKP and ammonium nitrate? I have been thinking about making some for fun but i am scared of the sensitivity of it being a peroxide.
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[*] posted on 3-12-2002 at 12:35


hey, i pressed some lead picrate into a .22, and taped it to another .22 of pressed PETN so the open end of each cartridge were together. i put this in a soda can and it didnt det the PETN, just made a pop.

hey alien. i have never detonated MEKP other than just hitting little pieces of paper soaked in it with a hammer, it is pretty sensitive. i have only made it twice and the reason i was gona use the lead picrate to detonate some is because its easy for me to make and quick. i have never put it in AN but it would be qite sensitive, especialy if you have a high percentage of MEKP. its sensitive, and dangerous but if you are willing to make AP then you should definately be willing to make MEKP.




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[*] posted on 3-12-2002 at 14:39
mekp dynamite


Maddog, here is my idea about mekp dynamite. I want to roll some paper tubes 9.5 inches long and 1.25 inches diameter outside. I will fill it up with 11 grams mekp to 100 grams ammonium nitrate (i don't think the tube will hold this much). I'll close both ends and when i want to use it punch a hole in the end and insert a 1 gram mekp cap into it. I am sort of worried of punching a hole in the dynamite, inserting a cap. You think this will set the mixture off? I have done this 2 times with APAN and it didn't go off. You think this is a bad idea? From your post it sounds like mekp is a bit less sensitive then AP.
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Madog
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[*] posted on 3-12-2002 at 15:56


hmm, do u mean if it would be dangerous to shove the cap in? no, i wouldnt say it is, people shove caps into comercial dynamite. i would shove it in, its not gona be sensitive to friction when absorbed in AN enough to go off. its good to play it safe tho, you only get one body. if you are refering to the 1 gram of MEKP setting off the dynamite it would work.

you have had 2 failed ignitions with APAN? or did u mean u shoved the cap into APAN 2 times and you still have hands?

do you plan to make solid MEKP for detonators? or to use KNO3/NaNO3 with MEKP soaked in it? HIgh concentration of MEKP in KNO3 is supose to be detonateable by flame.




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[*] posted on 3-12-2002 at 17:00


I didn't just shove it into the apan. My friend loads them cause he is quicker then I am and he pushes it in. He pushes it into the 15% AP apan but he is really careful and does it slow. They have failed both times. My plan was just to put 1-1.5 ml of mekp it without anything mixed in just the liquid. I really don't want to have to press it so I am planning to use the liquid in the cap only. I know what .4 grams AP going off in your hand can do to you. If i mix it with KNO3 will it be less sensitive? I am not even gonna crimp the cap shut, i will try to use culk of some thing else that hardens to close the cap and hold the fuse it. Using the 11gram-100gram ratio you think it is less sensitive then commercial dynamite? How do you think MEKP sensitivity compares to nitroglycerine?
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Madog
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[*] posted on 3-12-2002 at 18:43


it will be less sensitive to shock if absorbed in KNO3, and it wont roll around make have friction. it will probaly be less sensitive then comercial dynamite. was ur AN damp for those charges? NG is similar in sensitiveity i to MEKP i believe, iwould like to do some tests compareing the sensitiveity. i dont have much experiance with either of them so i cant say now.



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Madog
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[*] posted on 3-12-2002 at 18:44


oh yes, i tried to detonate some lead picrate when it was confined in paper and it failed. i think im just gonna try detonateing all the lead picrate i have at once in a medicine bottle.

alien, we should take this conversation to the MEKP thread




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[*] posted on 4-12-2002 at 11:35


the reason it failed to initiate the PETN is because it had a few mm of metal between the two explosives. this has a dramatic effect on initiation. press the lead picrate ON the PETN. so its in direct contact. then when the lead picrate goes off the PETN will go with it.
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Madog
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[*] posted on 4-12-2002 at 14:09


no, the neck of each cartridges were together, they were in complete contact. doing that backwords would be stupid.

it looked like this

-----i====i
\
fuse




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[*] posted on 8-12-2002 at 21:57


Hey, I used an ounce (that's 50 tonnes) of Leadmanganesediphoropentanoate to detonate a sandbox too!! it was k3wl!!!!

Anarchy 4 eva, RoX0r d3y boX0r

If someone can please tell me how these stories about the proverbial campfire are contributing to scientific knowledge, please tell me now and save me the embarrasment.

Please try to keep these discussions on topic, and stop what is an awesome forum degenerating into another EW forum.
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kingspaz
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[*] posted on 10-12-2002 at 14:00


'degenerating into another EW forum'
what the fuck? you act like the forum is k3\/\/|_ and a bad place. you are obviously mistaken.
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Ramiel
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[*] posted on 12-12-2002 at 23:04


Ok, forget it.

Just that EW is only explosives/weapons.
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[*] posted on 13-12-2002 at 12:22


I do think that Ramiel may have had a valid point.

This energetic materials forum is more about the chemistry of energetic materials; the E&W Forum is more about the application/usage of energetic materials. Obviously some discussion of the properties of energetic materials is acceptable here, such as discussion of how sensitive they are to various blasting caps, etceteras. But I do think that we should try to avoid having this forum transform from the discussion of chemistry to discussion of the usage of bangs and whizzes.




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[*] posted on 13-3-2003 at 06:43


To make picrate better use double salt reaction! Na or NH4 picrate are reacted with soluble nitrate, acetate or sulfate salts of the desired compound!

Best is to ask here what you want!

I wouldn't heat a picrate or a combination of products that might provide it!




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[*] posted on 15-3-2003 at 12:26


i have comcluded that lead picrate is a shitty explosive once and for all. i made it a few days ago via Na picrate solution + lead acetate solution and it still sucks, i also tryed to dry it well, oh well, screw lead picrate.



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