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Laboratory of Liptakov
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Cyklonan
Magic of Cyklonan is simple in preparation. Unlike emulsions. They are perhaps at your drugstore sorbitan monooleate? Or PIBSA? Do you have at home
every high shear mixer? Who thus asks emulsion probably never did. The minimum amount for the production of emulsions is 1 kg. The first reasonable
question: Microballoons? Yes. Cyklonan may contain microballoons. Does anyone of you have a lot of free time? Excellent! Take tests with
mickroballoons. Easy prepare TACN in the topic TeACN. I'm trying to patiently explain everything. But it can not stand long.
[Edited on 10-9-2014 by Laboratory of Liptakov]
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Laboratory of Liptakov
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Cyklonan
Before the development of Cyklonan were considered all options. The basic requirement is very easy availability of precursors. PIBSA? No, it is not.
Acids? No, you do not. Nitromethane? Other nitroesters? Also, do not. NC 2 with 12.4% N? Yes. These are adhesives and paints from the drug store.
Ammonium nitrate? Yes. It is a fertilizer. Cu wire? Yes. These are the cables. Ammonia water? Yes. That's drugstore. More is needed. Only AN, Cu, 25%
NH3 in aq. and nitrocellulose adhesive. Acetone. That is all. It is Cyklonan1. You have ammonium perchlorate? You have gun powder? NC3 13.1% N and
higher? OK. It is Cyklonan2,3. Cyklonan1 is the most powerful explosive made of absolutely simple precursors. It does not contain Al. Among all
kinds of explosives anything like this has not yet been made.
LL
[Edited on 10-9-2014 by Laboratory of Liptakov]
[Edited on 10-9-2014 by Laboratory of Liptakov]
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PHILOU Zrealone
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Quote: Originally posted by Laboratory of Liptakov  | So PHILOUZAN is much better than CYCLONAN!!!! (to be improved for best OB!)
80 TACuP
8 NH4ClO4 or NH4NO3
9 NC13,1N (Gun powder (or spare 12,4N))
3 Al
Is this a joke? Oxygen balanced with NH4ClO4 is +8.889. With NH4NO3 it is +7.779. This is the formula for Philouzan? High positive oxygen balance?
Worse composition I had never seen before. I have no words. You show results. While writing mostly nonsense.
LL
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TACuP is better than TACuN with regard to all parameters (sensitivity, sand crushing, VOD, density, Lead block test)...so there is little chance
cyclonan made with TACuN would perform better than cyclonan 4 (made with TACuP).
Sorry to point this out but positive OB is not always a problem! See data hereunder (*)
Also your compositions cylconan are sometimes with negative OB while maybe closer to zero OB would be better...
(*)
Ammonium nitrate (OB +19.99% - VOD 3000 m/s)
Ammonium perchlorate (OB +34.04% - VOD 3800 m/s)
Hexanitroethane (OB +42.7% - VOD 4950 m/s @ d= 0.91 (max d= 1.85 so VOD >6000 m/s)
Hydrazine nitrate (OB +8.6% - VOD 8690 m/s @ d=1.6)
Hydrazine perchlorate (OB +24.1% - VOD > 7500 m/s @ d= 1.7)
Nitroglycerine (OB +3.5% - VOD 7600 m/s @ d= 1.59)
Erythritol tetranitrate (OB +5.30% - VOD 7900 m/s @ d= 1.6)
Mannitol hexanitrate (OB +7.1% - VOD 8260 m/s @ d= 1.73)
[Edited on 10-9-2014 by PHILOU Zrealone]
PH Z (PHILOU Zrealone)
"Physic is all what never works; Chemistry is all what stinks and explodes!"-"Life that deadly disease, sexually transmitted."(W.Allen)
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Laboratory of Liptakov
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howgh
AP is 10x to 20x more money than AN. Moreover, it is freely available. The best way to make Cyklonan1. With ammonium perchlorate is necessary to
spare. AN and TeACx composition must have zero or slightly negative OB with aluminum. So says the lab. Howgh.
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PHILOU Zrealone
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Quoted from LL:
"Other nitroesters? Also, do not. NC 2 with 12.4% N? Yes."
--> Just to put things right NC is a nitroester (actually nitrate ester).
Yes buying NH4ClO4 is expensiver than NH4NO3...
But doing AP is much easier than doing AN...at least to make NO3(-), I need to buy HNO3 or other nitrate salt...
At home everybody can do NaClO3 from NaCl-water-electricity...proces is cheap...(you can even buy NaClO3 99% 5kg/20€ even if forbidden in Europa).
The later can be converted (50% yield) to HClO4 with H2SO4 (<40%) and heat/boiling.
Eventually heating disproportionation can be used by fusing at controled T° NaClO3...NaClO4 cristalizes out
4 NaClO3 --> NaCl + 3NaClO4
then H2SO4 (<60%) reaction vapourizes HCl out of the system and set HClO4 free.
PH Z (PHILOU Zrealone)
"Physic is all what never works; Chemistry is all what stinks and explodes!"-"Life that deadly disease, sexually transmitted."(W.Allen)
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Hennig Brand
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The couple of times I have made sodium perchlorate, I did it by electrolysis and then destroyed any remaining chlorate before converting the sodium
perchlorate to potassium perchlorate through a double displacement reaction with potassium chloride. I have never done it, but it is my understanding
that ammonium perchlorate is often made in more or less the same way from sodium perchlorate.
All sodium chlorate contamination must be destroyed, before attempting to convert the sodium perchlorate to ammonium perchlorate, so that no ammonium
chlorate is formed. I think I used sodium metabisulphite, HCl and heat to destroy the chlorate in a solution of crude sodium perchlorate (been a few
years). Dann2's website has, or had, excellent descriptions and graphs and tables for all these processes.
[Edited on 12-9-2014 by Hennig Brand]
"A risk-free world is a very dull world, one from which we are apt to learn little of consequence." -Geerat Vermeij
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Laboratory of Liptakov
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C1
Thank you for the description Hennig. It is seen that NH4ClO4 production is difficult. I know a long time ago. PHILOU: Only you catch my word for it.
NC2 is nitroester that you can buy. It does not have to produce. Your contributions are only provocation.
LL
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Hennig Brand
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I didn't find the processes involved in producing perchlorate to be all that difficult. I found the overall process very labor intensive, however, so
in that sense I guess perchlorate production could be called difficult.
"A risk-free world is a very dull world, one from which we are apt to learn little of consequence." -Geerat Vermeij
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nitro-genes
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sorbitan monooleate is piss easy to find (unlike 25% NH3 around here), emulsions are not that difficult to make, Ive tried couple of times using
preheated food processor as high shear mixer. Results were pretty encouraging forming a waxy substance that could not be flushed away with water.
Admittedly, the emulsions did crystalize out after some days, som maybe the droplets were nof tine enough to remain supersaterurated fluid.
But ok, a real question this time, hopefully no BS answer this time: 
Have you tested cyclonan brisancy against a simpler mix of the same components? Would it be more brisant than a 95% AN + 5% Al mix bound by NC at 1.2
g/cm3? If the Ammonium nitrate and Aluminium are both in the micron range and intimately mixed, I have no doubt a #8 detonator would set it off at
this density and may actually be more brisant than cyclonan.
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Laboratory of Liptakov
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AN pelets
Yes, there is a composition AN 90 / NC2 7.5 / Al 2.5. / 1.2 g / cc- Cap No.8 sensitive. Performance is weaker than Cyklonan. Another disadvantage
composition AN / NC / Al: Moisture absorption. Again: All options have been exhausted considered. Cyklonan1 is the best option.
LL
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Laboratory of Liptakov
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conversion
For the production Cyklonan 2 or 3 to be produced in the converter only TeACN. Production TeACP needless separately. Here is an example:
1) Dissolved in 60g NH3 25% aq. 30g NH4ClO4. (at 20-30C)
2) To 70 g of dry TeACN pour solution (90 g) (small exothermic reaction to 30C, but carefully, reaction end 10-20min)
There will be an automatic response and conversion TeACN on TeACP. Arises NH4 NO3, which is very soluble in NH3. Remains in solution.
3) separating the crystals with a sieve (see Fig. Topic TACN)
Another procedure is the same for all types Cyklonan. The resulting ratio of copper nitrate / perchlorate is not known. But it is a mixture of
Cyklonan 3.
Very powerfull........ LL
[Edited on 30-11-2014 by Laboratory of Liptakov]
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Laboratory of Liptakov
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Cyklonan 3
Here's a Cyklonan 3 in action. The surface is modified, stick to anything. As flytrap. Breaking cutting the tree.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OV66ridyhxo
...LL...
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Rosco Bodine
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@ LL I agree about the possibility of a mixed salt of TACN and TACP being the product. A synthesis of TACP which I described many years ago and
posted again recently uses Cu(NO3)2 as precursor for TACP, however the yield resulting is lower than what would be quantitative for the desired TACP.
The discrepancy provided by the yield very different from theoretical, makes likely other byproducts than pure TACP to be the result. For example, it
seems possible the precipitated product which appears to be anhydrous could be a double salt of TACN and TACP or in some ratio a multiple salt of TACN
and TACP.
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=24817&...
From your described synthesis of TACP using precursors which would eliminate any nitrate, the TACP product you describe seems slightly different from
the variant of TACP which I obtained by precipitation from a mixture which would likely have TACN present as a byproduct.
The product you obtained which would be pure TACP is reported by you to have a storage stability issue. In contrast, the product I obtained did not
appear to have any storage stability issue. So it is possible that the material obtained by the different methods of synthesis are not the same. It
is possible that the more stable material obtained by the method I used is actually a double salt or multiple salt which contains TACP along with
TACN. Also possible is the formation of a multiple salt containing NH4NO3 and / or NH4ClO4.
Evaporation and analysis of the filtered mother liquor to find what is the composition of the unreacted residual material would be useful to confirm
what is the composition of the precipitated crystals.
Decomposition by hydrolysis using ordinary water precipitates the copper from the product we are supposing to be TACP. Filtering out the copper oxide
and evaporating to a residue should leave only NH4ClO4 which is not hygroscopic.
Any mixed residue containing NH4NO3 would likely be hygroscopic.
The weight of copper as a percentage of the weight of the decomposed sample would give an indication of the probable formula by percentage copper
content.
I did not perform such chemical analysis. That follow up work at analysis is needed to be done for better identification of what is the composition of
the product.
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Laboratory of Liptakov
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aduct
Understood. (I hope) For Berta system is used procedure NH4ClO4 + Cu + NH3. In the converter. There NO3 group is not. For Cyklonan 3 it is not so
important. It is only a like secondary explosiv use. NH4NO3 is very soluble, the solution is aspirated, you're done. But it is an interesting idea
that arises aduct or multiple salt. I know, TACN or TACP quenched using H2O and heat. There is a CuO, its weight will determine the composition. Thus
was measured TACN, only. The result is TACN x 0.5 H2O. Respective, TACN+ TACN + H2O aduct - molecule. Similarly, well, it's probably for aduct TACN+
TACP + NH4NO3 x (X H2O). I understand, this aduct may retain too much water in coherent molecule. And especially if there is NH4NO3. Is there? Or is
there not? How much water? But for this problem I have siply clever resolution. From the very King Solomon:
Blow it with strong booster! :-)......LL
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Rosco Bodine
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I think the double or multiple salt may be anhydrous, based on no moisture loss observed at approximately 100C drying. Also when coating with the
melted paraffin a glass jar was sitting at an angle in a boiling water bath to heat the mixture sufficiently for melting the paraffin and flowing it
across the crystals to coat them uniformly, stirring with a wooden dowel and tumbling the crystals by manually rotating the glass jar, there was no
observable moisture loss or weight loss and only a trace of residual ammonia coming off the heated crystals being coated with melted paraffin. The
presumed TACP appeared to be stable during this manipulation involving heating and paraffin coating. The cooled and dried material appeared perfectly
stable in ordinary storage conditions for 2 years. Then the sample material was burned to destroy it.
The observed deflagration was same as for the freshly prepared material.
Heating to a higher temperature for drying was not tried, so perhaps if the material is a hydrate, it simply requires a higher temperature, maybe 115
or 120C would do it, or perhaps it is a tenacious hydrate that will not dehydrate on any heating, but will simply reach a decomposition point.
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Laboratory of Liptakov
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OK, I was curious to mix clear TACP + 2.75% paraffin. Pressing according to the system Berta diagram. Special attempt to Rosco Bodine. Unfortunately.
The system Berta this mixture does not work. But air burns very quickly......LL
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Rosco Bodine
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I think the wax flows during pressing and fills small air spaces which are needed for DDT so for the DDT mode the wax is probably interfering.
The paraffin mix is sensitive to LA and should give a good plate test there.
It was the TACP precipitated in the presence of NO3 which I tested, so that could be a factor also.
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Laboratory of Liptakov
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Cyklonan 1
With the wax into it Berta system is not appropriate. With LA primer, to go for sure. But it is a problem. TACP, this is copper everywhere. If the
primer spilled inside the cavity, hmm .. i do not know ..For laboratory testing OK, but in practic use it is no good thing. Here is video: produce and
pressing Cyklonane:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I7iTv_O6cJw
......LL
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Jimbo Jones
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A friendly advice. Your methods of work are just disaster waiting to happen. No offense, but this video shows some of the most irresponsible treating
of energetic material I’ve ever seen.
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Rosco Bodine
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Yes it is not a good idea for storage stability issues could be a problem using LA as the initiator. DDNP would be a better choice.
LA was simply being used as a standard for testing what is the sensitivity of the TACP to initiation.
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Laboratory of Liptakov
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DDNP is a good choice. It may be tested. Thank you. Without heavy metal......LL
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Bert
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| Quote: |
A friendly advice. Your methods of work are just disaster waiting to happen. No offense, but this video shows some of the most irresponsible
treating of energetic material I’ve ever seen.
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I just watched the video.
Yes, chopping up an energetic material on a steel surface with a steel tool sure does look like tempting fate.
"You can abuse the powder a million times. One time WILL be the last time..."
Rapopart’s Rules for critical commentary:
1. Attempt to re-express your target’s position so clearly, vividly and fairly that your target says: “Thanks, I wish I’d thought of putting it
that way.”
2. List any points of agreement (especially if they are not matters of general or widespread agreement).
3. Mention anything you have learned from your target.
4. Only then are you permitted to say so much as a word of rebuttal or criticism.
Anatol Rapoport was a Russian-born American mathematical psychologist (1911-2007).
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papaya
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@Liptakov, you seem to complain about NH3 leaving your Cu complexes soon or late, why don't you try to use some amines (ethylene diamine?) instead of
NH3? Is this even possible?
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PHILOU Zrealone
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NH3 will only leave its complexated place if the complex is left in open air (open system linked to the vacuum of the infinite universe). The
complexation constant of Cu(NH3)4(2+) is quite high and so the NH3 set free will be low by definition!
Usually in a full filled hermetically sealed glassware the NH3 set free will remain low because it will saturate the little air gap above the complex;
one may add some extra ml of concentrated NH4OH inside the recipient to keep the equilibrium on the good side!
Cu(NH3)4(NO3)2 <==--> Cu(NO3)2 + 4 NH3(g)
The complex probably passes from tetra-amino- through tri-amino-, then di-amino and mono-amino-copper (II) nitrate; thus not all NH3 in one stage!
PH Z (PHILOU Zrealone)
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Laboratory of Liptakov
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Well, that's interesting. It is therefore appropriate to maintain TACN and TACP in a slight (1%) moisture? Thanks, Philou......LL
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