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BASF
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Stabilization of organic peroxides
I want to start a little project on stabilization of organic peroxides like acetone peroxide or hmtd.
I want to try several additives (not more than 5-10 weight percent) for stabilization.
It would also be an objective to try slowing down sublimation.
Any thoughts?
-It would be very useful to know the decomposition products and/or the pathway of decay.
HLR
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BASF
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Once i stored hmtd in an iron container.
The iron got corroded and contaminated the hmtd with lots of Fe2O3.
After half a year or so, i opened the container and noticed the intense smell of amines, if my nose was right.
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madscientist
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Perhaps mononitrotoluene could be used to desensitize organic peroxides.
I weep at the sight of flaming acetic anhydride.
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Syanide
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friction
If you want to make AP less succeptible to detonation becuase of friction, and prevent sublimation, a good way to do this is to turn it into a putty.
Mix AP with some PVC cement so that it makes a putty. Mix them carefully (don't apply too much pressure) and it will eventually harden.
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Anarchist
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you can also make AP putty with double base smokless powder as well, I have heard that this is a fairly stable substance. I don't really know about
the sublimation factor though.
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DeusExMachina
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I've heard of AP being put in melted straws by pouring acetone over the straws andthe letting them melt, put in PVC cement and in smokeless powder.
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BASF
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PVC-cement......what is this used for?
DeusExMachina: Do you have more specific info on what you said, maybe a link or sth?
Melting AP...i can hardly believe this...
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BASF
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Not to be misunderstood....i want to experiment with stabilizers for stabilizing HMTD or DPPP(assuming it can be made somewhere in the future...) and
AP is under the most volatile and most simple manufactured peroxides, so it should be ideal.
I already had some access with phorone as coating substance reducing the rate of sublimation by 10% over a 14 day- period(approximately 15% phorone).
But phorone is still very expensive...
I want to put emphazis on surface coating, i rather want to have a powder than a block of glued peroxide.
Another way to go could eventually be the addition of several acids/acidic buffering agents, assuming that peroxides are more stable in acidic milieu.
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BASF
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| Quote: |
First know this:
H2O2 is a peroxyde and is sold when 30% or 50% at a pH (logarithmic acidity
scale) between 2 and 0....the use of oxydiser resistant strong acids is done;
it is not unusual to find H2SO4, CCl3-CO2H, H3PO4 in commercial H2O2!
Secondly:
Peroxydes are less stable in neutral and mild basic conditions because acidity
helps to prevent autocatalytic decomposition of H2O2! In strongly alkaline
media like NaOH when cooled strongly, you can get Na2O2 salt formation (since
H2O2 is slightly more acidic than water)!
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Hmm seems that acidity would be the right way to go..
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DeusExMachina
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BASF, I meant melting straws (the type of straws that have nitrocellulose in them) in acetone and then mixing the viscous paste with the acetone
peroxide. You can do that or mix it with double base smokeless powder which increases it's power.
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DeusExMachina
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hey BASF, I may have misunderstood what you were gettign at with what you said about phorone but you can make it easily and it is cheap too. HCl and
acetone is all you need right?
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BASF
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| Quote: |
1)TCAP was impregnated with 16% phorone (from Sigma-Aldrich,p.a. 97%, 10$/10g); the weight loss was now only 15% as opposed to 26% uncoated.
2)TCAP was impregnated with less than 45% of an ethanol-soluble grease(non-volatile) obtained by cooking acetone with concentrated sulfuric
acid.
The unexpected result was a weight loss of 38%, even more than of pure TCAP.
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And that´s the problem.....although we have a vague idea phorone can be made somehow via acetone+hcl, we did not manage to get pure phorone.
As my comparative tests with pure bought phorone and the product from the acetone+hcl experiment show, it is very unlikely that phorone can be made
using such method.
Also see "Reactions of HCl with acetone" in the DPPP-thread
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=179&pa...
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PHILOU Zrealone
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BASF:
If you look closer to the link, you will see the PH Z sign under louis texts...it was me!
I not only expressed that acids doesn't destabilise peroxyde and should be better than neutral or basic media!
I proposed a simple test to be sure of possible stabilisating or destabilisating effect of acids or base!
1)Make CTAP filtrate it and wash it with cold distillated water; then cut it in 4 parts while stil wet!
Part 1: allow to dry and get pure CTAP
Part 2: add 10% solid citric acid (grinded) and allow to dry the same way as part 1
Part 3: add 10% solid Na2CO3 (grinded) and allow to dry as part 1 and 2
Part 4: add 10% solid NaCl (grinded) and allow to dry as P1,2,3!
Better make the drying of all together in the same place to be sure the cristal size is the same and the time of drying too!
Then simply compare the Temperature of decomposition of each towards each other!
If T explosion/fire/detonation are expressed as T1,T2,T3 and T4 for each group:
Then if: T1=T4>T3=T2
Pure neutral CTAP and with inert ingredient is stabler than acid or neutral one!
If: T3>T1=T4>T2 acid destabilises while base stabilises!
If: T2>T1=T4>T3 acid stabilises while base destabilises!
If: T4>T1 inert ingredient stabilise
If: T4=T2=T3>T1 all ingredients stabilise by simple dillution effect
There are other possibilities but with a little logic they are combinatation of the above conclusions!
This simple experience would close all debate about the subject and prove what is right and what is wrong!!!!
PH Z (PHILOU Zrealone)
"Physic is all what never works; Chemistry is all what stinks and explodes!"-"Life that deadly disease, sexually transmitted."(W.Allen)
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BASF
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Sorry Philou, forgot to add your initials...
Interesting info.....
The idea of surface coating was from a patent on stabilization of methylene dinitramine where they used picric acid as coating substance...
HLR
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Nu-ANFO
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I've read a lot about TATP and I really need it too to make a AP/ETN compound cap.I do some test mixing 50:50 AP/ETN
and ignite by Rcandy fuse.The result is fail det.It just burn.I have an idea to stabilize AP with ETN.Dissolve both with acitone and evaporate.For
fuse sensitive,use more AP.For more stable less sensitive use more ETN.Also this mixer will give more power .Important: Both AP ane ETN must be
neutrallize by recrystalization with alcohol or acitone by adding some Naco3. AP must be synthesis below 10c. with HCl.
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Bot0nist
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TATP is a really shitty choice in a compound initiator for a multitude of reasons. If you have the means to make ETN you out to be able to make some
more suitable primaries that are more reliably and a hell of a lot safer than that suicide dust. Also, I know your trying to stabilize the AP, but
mixing it with the ETN may not be the most effective way to 'get the train rolling' in the cap.
U.T.F.S.E. and learn the joys of autodidacticism!
Don't judge each day only by the harvest you reap, but also by the seeds you sow.
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hissingnoise
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A Lazarus thread . . .
Anyway, AP has this unfortunate habit of stabilising its handlers - sometimes permanently!
HMTD is unpredictable but AP is just plain treacherous!
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=8038#p...
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Nu-ANFO
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I just give an idea to stabilize AP with ETN. Actually I use AP in AP/ETN compound cap in 2 train.I add Rcandy in 0.5cm vinyl tube and follow by small
amound of AP about 100mg or less and press it very sofly with cotton stick. Then add 500mg ETN next to it.This is more than relieable blasting cap.I
use this cap with very care form heat,static,pressure during insert to the main charge.AP will be safe if use very small amount as posible and do it
with care(I 've even made 2g AP blasting cap for several times).And people must do several test and learn a lot before making it. HMTD can not be
safer than AP.Some time it is more dangerous than AP to reacth with some metal container. Never use organic peroxcide as a main charge. Hold it with
very care,use it as less as posible ,synthesis at cool as posible(under 10c.) and also becarful about static.So, you will sure be safe i garantee.
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vulture
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| Quote: |
Never use organic peroxcide as a main charge |
That doesn't guarantee your safety! You seem to assume that your AP is only dangerous in larger quantities. What if your 100mg of AP goes off when
you're inserting the det into the main charge?
One shouldn't accept or resort to the mutilation of science to appease the mentally impaired.
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Nu-ANFO
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All primary are not safe.TATP is one of the most sensitive so that we get advantage of it.It is so sensitive does not mean it sustains self
detonation.I mean we have to use this AP all proper way like using it as fresh,a little bit moister.I have an i dea to add a little % AN to AP and
let it sit for a round 5 or 10 minute so that AN obserbs some moister from the air.Maybe 10% of AN has been add to it.This should still can be use as
a primer and can be ignited by heat,fuse.I am goint to do some friction and impact test with this compound too. I also working with heating ETN in
foil cap.So that no primary is needed.See this forum also.
http://highexplosivesforum.forumotion.com/
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Bot0nist
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While moist TATP is much less sensitive to premature detonation, it is also less effective at shooting a secondary. Your are right about the synthesis
of TATP needing to be cold. The dimer is more unstable and less effective. You are also right to minimize any stimuli that you can when handling the
compound, as it will happily maim you. I think you should try and see if the hygroscopy of NH<sub>4</sub>NO<sub>3</sub> will
effectively keep the TATP moist enough to desensitize it, while still allowing detonation in a small scale, controlled experiment.
Mixing AN and TATP is nothing new though, and I must again reiterate that I advise against using TATP in an initiator of a larger secondary charge.
It is SUICIDALLY sensitive to stimuli and even if you have never had a premature detonation or a near miss with it yet, it can happen for no real
apparent reason. The worst thing is that it seems pretty tame most of the time. Also, it isn't a very good primary. It is powerful, sure, but the
physics of its explosion make it a poor initiator. There is a reason it has never been considered for commercial use, even in war time. Only ever
attractive to teens and jihadist, probably do to its retardedly simple synthesis.
Many primaries are easy to synth, much better at initiation, and perfectly sensitive to flame. Check 'em out.
U.T.F.S.E. and learn the joys of autodidacticism!
Don't judge each day only by the harvest you reap, but also by the seeds you sow.
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Nu-ANFO
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People make me more afraid of AP everyday.More and more. Yes i should belife that.Actually I am using ETN -heat-in -foil cap that worke for me
everytime blasting both underwater and underground.
Then i just lose my 600g ANFO in the water because fail det.So,i am thinkking to start syn and using TATP again.When i read more and more about
TATP,it make me more worry to handle it. Now I start to do some more improve ETN cap again to make it relieable 120% No primary needed so mean safe.
Hope people to stick to this too. Don't pay attention to much about weak chem bond HE
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AndersHoveland
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Acetone peroxide is dangerous!
Because it is easy to make, acetone peroxide is popular among those with little knowledge of chemistry, which is very unfortunate.
ETN and nitroglycerin are not really primaries. Although they can be dangerously sensitive to friction or mechanical impact, such compounds do not
reliably detonate from flame or electrical ignition.
There do exist several other good primaries, which are both much safer than acetone peroxide, and are better at initiating the booster charge.
However, these other primaries can be somewhat more complicated to make.
Please do not prepare more than a few grams of any organic peroxide (such as AP) ! The ammount of AP required to directly detonate ANFO is a
very unsafe quantity. If you insist on "experimenting" with ANFO, please do some research about other safer primaries. Especially if
you are under 21 years old, it is a very bad idea to prepare or store more than a few grams of any explosive substance.
Younger people with an interest in explosives almost always have poor judgement about all types of risk- and the dangerous thing is that they do not
realize it.
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hissingnoise
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Nitromannite, according to Davis, is a near-primary and will detonate from the flame of a match!
KClO<sub>4</sub>/AL flash should reliably initiate MHN with strong confinement . . .
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textex
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Quote: Originally posted by Bot0nist  | It is powerful, sure, but the physics of its explosion make it a poor initiator. There is a reason it has never been considered for commercial use,
even in war time. Only ever attractive to teens and jihadist, probably do to its retardedly simple synthesis.
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I dunno, but i would belive that one of the worst things about AP is that it sublimes so fast. Making it really bad for commercial stuff. One thing is
making a cap and then setting it off 3 hours later, but making 1000 caps that will be used the next 6 months? Or using it in shells which is gonna be
shipped to the far east and then used in a war there.
Just my 3cents though, i just ocasionally use it in 10mg quantitys in caps.
Any of you tested how AP-putty reacts? that being ap dissolved in nc-laquer if im not wrong.
[Edited on 15-5-2011 by textex]
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