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grndpndr
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In retrospect wizard in one of the patent excerpts you posted I noted the simple LP would not det cast PA .Not a suprise,however it went on to say a
small amt of crystaline PA atop the cast PA would cause the whole to detonate.This is more n line with what I had expected i dont know why i didnt
mention that earlier.
Just as plain Ful of Merc 1gr plus pressed to perhaps 4500 mps 1.5 gr is successful in a composite cap with crystalinePA it seems thers little
question LP possibly as a composite with K chlorate/AL will detonate PA in its crystaline form/ composite cap.Really all I was trying to get at
is/isnt LP a reasonably energetic material capable of detonating many of the energetics used as secondarys in composite caps.Testings in order to
determine quantities densities and tube diameter but I dont think thers really any question properly pressed to max densitys LP will detonate good
crystaline PA.As to compatibility issues that shouldnt be a overly difficult problem.
[Edited on 6-8-2010 by grndpndr]
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The WiZard is In
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Quote: Originally posted by grndpndr  | In retrospect wizard in one of the patent excerpts you posted
I noted the simple LP would not det cast PA
[snip] |
You take this toooo seriously! My post(s) are/was not a comment nor
a criticism but merely an addition to the copious of knowledge.
Some will find this of interest :—
REPORTS OF INVESTIGATIONS
BUREAU OF MINES - - APRIL 1921 - -
DEPARTMENT OF INTERIOR
PICRIC ACID AS A BLASTING AGENT
By C E. Munroe (Chief explosives chemist, Bureau of Mines)
and
Spencer P. Howell, (Explosives engineer, Bureau of Mines)
http://tinyurl.com/2brwzsk
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Rosco Bodine
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Unqualified generalizations are too often made in scientific writings, then misunderstood by readers and taken as gospel truth, what should be
understood more correctly in a qualified, sometimes highly qualified sense, so that "truth" gets lost in the actual meaning. Picric Acid and picrates
are fine examples of the misunderstanding which is generated by "unqualified generalizations" which are mythical in their dimension for spreading
ignorance masquerading as knowledge.
Believe what your own experiments show and compare that to the literature and it soon becomes very clear what is going on there. There is almost a
nod and a wink given to the "lingo" used in scientific publication, and a lack of precision in description used in scientific literature, which may
become generally worse in the older writings, but is too often imported ignorance transported as regurgitated myth brought forward into more modern
writings, by "researchers" who perpetuate the errors stated before, either deliberately being vague, or for not checking their facts.
With regards to interpreting various tables which describe in general terms the properties of explosives, the quantity and conditions for the tests
are definitively important for making any sense of what those numbers mean. The raw numbers
by themselves are so dependant upon the test conditions, that under different conditions, those numbers may be quite meaningless and no inference can
be drawn from them which can be crossed over from one test condition to another. They are highly specific tests, and even device specific tests,
comparable on a reasonable basis only in the context of that one specific test, and not reasonable to be interpreted as any unqualified
generalization, which may or very well may not hold.
Efficient and reliable firing trains, no matter what materials are used, are systems which are deliberately engineered and specifically tuned devices,
and they are not some abstract contraption where somebody read a chart and willy nilly tossed together some odds and ends thought would work okay
together. Firing trains are highly specific and well tested systems of refined designed that are tuned like a piano.
Any of you folks who are reloaders of cartridges for firearms surely know how much effort goes into "working up a load"
that has particular accuracy and other performance, and how small variations have an observable difference. It is exactly the same for other firing
trains, and applies to detonators in the same way as for ordinary cartridge ammunition. And what works perfect for .45 cal may not work so good for
.50 cal. Maybe there is a world of difference there.
The inevitable conclusion is that loadings are device specific.
What you theorize may work or should work, in proof tests may or may not work as expected. The tests which you do specific to a specific device are
definitive. All the rest is just theory.
[Edited on 6-8-2010 by Rosco Bodine]
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The WiZard is In
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And they get carried on — unchallenged — verbatim from publication
to publication — in perpetuity. Like human anatomy which was
accepted unchallenged from that of the ancient Greeks up to the
Renaissance.
From Wiki-P
The number of ribs was noted by the Flemish anatomist Vesalius in
his key work of anatomy De humani corporis fabrica in 1543,
setting off a wave of controversy, as it was traditionally assumed
from the Biblical story of Adam and Eve that men's ribs would
number one fewer than women's.
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The WiZard is In
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Take good notes there will be a test.
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grndpndr
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if anything you misunderstood my reaction wizard i was not angry irritated in any way,I appreciate any information I can get.I was mildly interested
to see what i believe to be true in print.The only thing that does disturb is as precise as everyone attempts to be on this forum and the consequences
if one isnt as accurate as possible is at least called to thier attention if an honest mistake, at worst someone may be hurt.This is unnacceptable
with can i say amateur chemists why then would it be acceptable for professional
chemists involved with energetic materials to be less accurate.That does bother me and frankly makes me wonder were these folks careless about thier
fellows or am I missing something...
IIRC they did have the scientific method way back 100yrs ago (Edison maybe the exception( but perhaps accurate records doublechecking a colleages work
seemed redundant.
maybe they didnt yet use the scientific method after all?Even the lists of todays VOD's/RB are allegedly filled with a very many errors copyed
verbatim
from passed down 100yr old texts no one bothering to check the data
apparently!?Now that german shite does tee me off! LOL
wizard thanks for the link to'21' dept of interior and use of surplus wartime PA
with AN admixed with the eutectic PA/mononitronapthalene
is interesting.i havent as of yet finished the link though its saved.
Thanks again.I believe I have access to plenty of dead soft old lead plumbing pipe when i get the measurements \im thinking the lead test blocks
couldnt be to difficult to make.And relatively accurately measure cavity volume and RB/VOD
Wizard can you enlighten me as to the nature of that artillery shell thats illustrated?
[Edited on 7-8-2010 by grndpndr]
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The WiZard is In
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It a DP patent for the bursting charge in an shrapnel shell,
me thinks with a little help from several dictionaries.
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Rosco Bodine
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Context is important when interpreting the meaning of tabular data for energetic materials and also for weighing generalizations which are made with
regards to performance, reactivity and dangers, which are things often affected by the scale of what is being described. There are not necessarily
linear magnitude of 10 differences in parameters when comparing samples of 10 mg, 100 mg, 1 gram, 10 grams, 100 grams, 1 kilogram, 10 kilograms, 100
kilograms, 1 metric ton ...ect. of energetic materials. Algebra definitely applies. There is error that sometimes enters into reading data and
tempted generalizations which are made without regards to peculiarities dependant upon scale and other parameters which are not linearly incremental
for one material, nor for comparisons of different materials, or mixtures or complex combinations. There is a temptation to try to overtranslate or
oversimplify actual meaning that may be reasonable for materials which can easily behave differently under differing conditions. There are "bumps"
and transitions in performance curves for energetic materials.
There are case A,B,C,D ect. ....through the alphabet scenarios where you can't necessarily take the data from A
and say it is the same for C or D. It may be and it may not be that the properties for one case hold true in a differing case. There are things
written as absolutes that are only "more or less true" depending on variables and generally the "lie" will get told erring on the side of safety,
which then makes it something of a "white lie" given a nod and wink by those knowing better. People who don't know better will read this kind of stuff
and blow right past it, not even recognize that kind of stuff in the literature. If I do
know better on some of what I read, then the professor will just have to pardon the hell out of me for believing results of my experiments instead of
the academic propaganda.
For older references, these may be of interest
The unqualified statements about the dangers of accidental detonation of picric acid due to picrate salts also formed accidentally are statements
which are true under only the most extreme conditions such as might appear in an industrial scale situation or a magazine storage situation where
adverse and abnormal conditions also applied. Yet many people read such misleading statements as gospel truth applicable in all scenarios, including
the laboratory, when it is simply false....and yet there is no dismissing the myth which has become "politically correct bad science" and thereby has
become conventional wisdom that is simply bullshit and always was bullshit.
Attachment: M.C. Lea article picric acid solubility purification.pdf (271kB)
This file has been downloaded 677 times
Attachment: purification of picric acid pages from Chemical News 1878.pdf (383kB)
This file has been downloaded 782 times
Attachment: Picric Acid, Thorpe 1911, dictionary_of_applied_chemistry.pdf (687kB)
This file has been downloaded 906 times
Attachment: the metallic picrates.pdf (1.2MB)
This file has been downloaded 737 times
[Edited on 7-8-2010 by Rosco Bodine]
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The WiZard is In
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Sorry, the scholar in me requires I add this :—
Silberrad and Phillips
Journal of the Chemical Society
[93] 1908
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The WiZard is In
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von Kast on Pikrat's
Byda I own v3 1911, v. 6 1911 and v. 8 1913 of
this journal, if'n anyone has need of a reference
from them.
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Rosco Bodine
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You speak German, we get it. This is an English language forum however, so the file as an attachment would be entirely adequate, unless you just want
to plaster and clutter the pages here with German to make a point. Do you also have the English editions ?
Here's another old reference which goes into some detail about assaying and impurities typical to be found in picric acid.
Attachment: Picric Acid excerpt from Commercial Organic Analysis.pdf (515kB)
This file has been downloaded 1038 times
[Edited on 7-8-2010 by Rosco Bodine]
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The WiZard is In
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| Quote: Originally posted by Rosco Bodine | | You speak German, we get it. This is an English language forum however, so the file as an attachment would be entirely adequate, unless you just want
to plaster and clutter the pages here with German to make a point. Do you also have the English editions ? |
German speak me? No. However, this doesn't prevent others
here from speaking/reading it.
I would note in passing for all those who have directed their
criticism at me and believe that this is their private form,
and are therefor entitled to have it run to their specifications ...
Here @ Science Madness. Org I answer only to God or
her representatives on earth, i.e., the forms
moderators.
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Rosco Bodine
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What kind of response is gotten for a reasonable request to an unreasonable person ? See above.
File attachments are easier and less clutter, yet you go to extra trouble to post
inline images in German on an English language board, which doesn't make sense,
Why ?
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The WiZard is In
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| Quote: Originally posted by Rosco Bodine | What kind of response is gotten for a reasonable request to an unreasonable person ? See above.
File attachments are easier and less clutter, yet you go to extra trouble to post
inline images in German on an English language board, which doesn't make sense,
Why ? |
Why? Because if you post a PDF as an attachment it
get pasted into la post. I will think upon putting it/them into
a PDF which gets attached. I think/hope. However, there
maybe a problem w/ exceeding the file size limit.
What kind of response is gotten for a reasonable request
to an unreasonable person ? See above.
I have a jiffy reply to this, however, as you have contributed
more than I have — probable ever will, I will confine myself
to saying your suggestion has been noted.
[Edited on 7-8-2010 by The WiZard is In]
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The WiZard is In
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| Quote: Originally posted by Rosco Bodine | Context is important when interpreting the meaning of tabular data for energetic materials and also for weighing generalizations which are made with
regards to performance.....
[snip] |
Attachment: Picric Acid, Thorpe 1911, dictionary_of_applied_chemistry.pdf (687kB)
Attachment: the metallic picrates.pdf (1.2MB)
The WiZard Is In - Drives off topic - crashes and burns.
Sorry this it tooooo good to pass up. It is my moral duty
to warn you that you have violated one of the secret rules
here @ Science Most Mad, one that I have been frequently
criticized for violating. You have posted info that the offend
member could have found by themselves by searching
Google there by wasting their time, and as they could
have found it on their own your information is useless.
Whatever happened to — Scholarship is knowing what question
to ask.
Could it be the inmates think they should run the asylum?!
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Rosco Bodine
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It's interesting isn't it how it is more convenient if someone excerpts the portion of interest and posts it in a relevant location, for the benefit
of saving people with slower connections having to download an entire document and then edit and compile the excerpt themselves. It also archives the
relevant information as a backup in the thread. Really it benefits more those people who are less than regular Einsteins like yourself, since not
just everybody can hope to be such a wise guy like you.
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quicksilver
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| Quote: Originally posted by grndpndr | I
My laymans question is how do iI square the reported performance of these various primarys were discussing with the alleged inadequacies of basic
LP, even FM in its proven ability to high order det a PA base charge of crystaline PA pressed to less than max density 1.4/1.6.Low temp of LP det can
be addresse as can its OB increasing brisance/power beyond its ballpark of 4400mps .67 RB the RB exceeds that of LA,MF etc and det vel is off by 800
mps compared to LA @ max density.How do I sqaure that with alleged performances or lack theroff? LP did seem to be a popular material perhaps with
the addition of K chlorate and/or AL powder but MF also benefitted from this approach.Assuming one were operating on the KISS principle, very
appropriate in my case!Why would I not assume that these materials were basically very similar at least in the advertised performance parameters?
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We know each other fairly well and I feel comfortable saying that I really don't have the chops to answer that query with degree of authority or even
more of a potent referral to material that you may not have not already read. So speaking just for myself I'd answer a question with a question.
From an empirical perspective I could venture certain discussion points based on what I've observed.
We know that density affects performance & addition of Al results in a greater heat yet lowers certain other areas of performance. So many
questions regarding primaries become contingent on agenda & circumstance to which they are put & the complexities of how they are measured
& then compared with others of their ilk.
We are often met with generalizations such as HMTD is a more effective initiator of certain secondaries than MF. But what if we have subtle
differences that are not taken into account during such an examination [of performance]? Things like outside temperature or the freshness of the
synthesis [of the particular primary] that may play a role & are not accounted for.
There are rarely a perfect set of comparative circumstances, so we may be at loss to say with authority that "A >B" as an initiator or always be
more efficient, etc. Even though for a given situation we see that lead azide initiates PETN at a lower weight than HMTD; would this ALWAYS be true?
Here's where the rubber meets the road because we have to accept the test data even though it may be flawed by [what may seem like] insignificant
circumstances. This may have impact because we would never have all bases covered nor have such a complete knowledge that we could construct such a
perfectly equivalent testing situation.
edit:
A classic example is shooting at distance targets.
We hand-load our favorite round with weighed cases and the highest quality match bullets. We then have a powder that we know gives us great results
& use a micrometer seating our bullet. We use match primers & clean the flash hole. We know the distance with a laser rangefinder. We use our
favorite rifle and make sure its clean and dialed in for the single cold barrel shot.. One day we group very well; another day - we goof.
What changed? We find that one day was hotter than the other and the temp change made the rounds gain in pressure; throwing off our point of impact.
We thought we had taken into account all the variables but the temp affected our chemical(s) & spoiled our day.
[Edited on 7-8-2010 by quicksilver]
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Rosco Bodine
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One thing that can really help a lot is when you understand and accept the *fact* that a lot of published "data" is pure bullshit. Do your own
experiments and believe your own eyes. If your data doesn't square with "the book" data, rely upon your data ....believe your own eyes. Believe what
you see yourself, not what some "authority" tells you to see.
As for detonating PA with basic lead picrate, the problem is scale. It can probably be done if you can accept a "cap" being 5/8" diameter and 6"
long.
If a marginal primary is being considered for use, to attempt initiation of a nitrophenol type base charge, then probably it is better to use a base
charge of styphnic acid because it is more sensitive to initiation and almost as powerful as picric acid. It is also possible that a small increment
of the styphnic acid like a quarter gram, could be used as an intermediate between the initiator and a picric acid base charge, or a composite of
styphnic and picric acid may have enhanced sensitivity, making it easier to initiate.
Awhile back we discussed the reenforcing cap configuration which can also be used to increase the effect of the initiator.
That reenforcement may be required to achieve reliable functioning for a device having an initiator that is marginal for the task.
[Edited on 8-8-2010 by Rosco Bodine]
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grndpndr
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I cant ignore the respected forum voices any longer.I was evidently so invested in the now suspect data that I took as gospel what was printed in the
data.Forum member Experience trumps paper/pencil in this case most others.How
badly underpowered is the plain PB picrate compared to simple HG fulminate approximately?
I regularly would use 1 gr of ful merc in these composite caps using PA.Mainly due to the abundance of mercury and nitric at the time not really
based on need.Theoretically would a gram/gram and 1/2 pressed to 2.8 paper max density succeed in detonating PA pressed to less than max density '1.5
'to ease detonation somewhat and still reach 6500 mps
min.Experimentation may be in order unless theres experience willing to be shared, alothough as stubborn as I now appear...
Thanks for hanging in there fellas its appreciated.
Ive located some what seems to be dead soft lead metal that was used in a near century old home/more was salvage as new plumbing was installed.Seems
to me the metal should be satisfactory its as soft softer than any lead ive ever encountered, far softer than even lead .22 bullets.I plan on imp a
set of lead test blocks for detonator and the 10gr test of energetic det measuring the hole accurately w/water.Im also synthesising a few grams of K
chlorate hoping to find some fine AL based paint to filter off the AL mesh.
One final question? In a gov interior dept paper where ww1 wartime PA was being surplussed I saw a eutectic mix with PA/Mononitronapthalene/Ammonium
Nitrate.Aside from the basic energetics no further info was included.
No %,parts per, or wieghts were listed.Could it be Mononitronaphalene was used to initially coat the AN to prevent acid contacting the AN and causing
damage or decomposition from the PA?No instructions were included for the composition at all nor were any time lenghths for storage mentioned.It
sounds promising on the face of it but any advice would be appreciated.I would hope for a 6500 MPS det vel and higher with this energetic.Being cast
it may require a booster of PA/ETN but the should be no problem. Thanks for all the help and patience.Pndr
That shrapnel shell is a trip,a holdover from the BP muzzleoader/breechloader era early 20th cent.Shrapnel was born in
late 17th cent and survived until the mid 18th cent.His initail design for muzzleloading artillery was basically a large riot gun.The original
lead/iron ball contraption that held a # of large caliber balls at least the wieght of the rated cannon likely 2x the wieght of a normal Iron
ball.Muzzleloaders of the era firing balls that wieghed from a light 6lber up to a med cal of 24 to 36 lber double that wieght in lead balls and thats
a viscous mass killer a single large diameter ball passing through several ranks x 100 balls plus.Later shrapnel was considered as not being what it
was originally named for but any piece of ballistic metal from most any source/size steel artillery shell or grenade splinter etc.
Synthesis notes like those of a snipers shot logbook detail almost every imaginable variable from weather to equipment.Down to humidity,mirage, cloud
cover,pulse,respiration all can affect shot placement or synthesis results.Where I used to be a compulsive notetaker the only notes I make are those
made prior to the start of the synthesis a habit I need to break.
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The WiZard is In
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| Quote: Originally posted by grndpndr |
One final question? In a gov interior dept paper where ww1 wartime PA was being surplussed I saw a eutectic mix with PA/Mononitronapthalene/Ammonium
Nitrate.Aside from the basic energetics no further info was included.
No %,parts per, or wieghts were listed.Could it be Mononitronaphalene was used to initially coat the AN to prevent acid contacting the AN and causing
damage or decomposition from the PA?No instructions were included for the composition at all nor were any time lenghths for storage mentioned.It
sounds promising on the face of it but any advice would be appreciated.I would hope for a 6500 MPS det vel and higher with this energetic.Being cast
it may require a booster of PA/ETN but the should be no problem. Thanks for all the help and patience.Pndr
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There dobe a number of US Patents using PA and DNN and or
1-MNN.
Her dobe two comps from PATR 2700 (Which can in theory be DL'd) page N8.
Jap Onayako
PA DNN 50/50 or 80/20
(DNN is not explosive)
Trironite
88-90 PA
10-12 1-MNN
This curious US Patent of 1893 by Bolmén (Bolménite)
for pictated naphthalene.
495 178
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quicksilver
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Booster test scenarios are even more variable. War-time claims are often fraught with government contract competitions.
I have a little ditty that I learned the hard way.....
We all will see stuff in print (& since I didn't read over your shoulder; I don't know exactly the specifics). So what I do is assume nothing
& simply because the government says something doesn't make it true. The truth will always be in the pudding.
Remember "daylight savings time"? Occasionally we are forced to choose between our watch & a sun dial.
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The WiZard is In
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| Quote: Originally posted by grndpndr |
One final question? In a gov interior dept paper where ww1 wartime PA was being surplussed I saw a eutectic mix with PA/Mononitronapthalene/Ammonium
Nitrate.Aside from the basic energetics no further info was included.
No %,parts per, or wieghts were listed.Could it be Mononitronaphalene was used to initially coat the AN to prevent acid contacting the AN and causing
damage or decomposition from the PA?No instructions were included for the composition at all nor were any time lenghths for storage mentioned.It
sounds promising on the face of it but any advice would be appreciated.I would hope for a 6500 MPS det vel and higher with this energetic.Being cast
it may require a booster of PA/ETN but the should be no problem. Thanks for all the help and patience.
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My ever useful copy of TM 9-1985-4 Japanese Explosive
Firing Devices and Sabotage Devices)
March, 1953
Sez - The Yellow Peril used as a main charge -
Onayaku - Picric acid 50% dinitrohapthalene 50%.
TM 9-1985-5
Japanese Explosive Ordnance (Army Ammunition, Navy Ammunition)
March 1953
Type 94 7-cm (75mm) High-Explosive Projectiles contained
Ona — Picric acid and dinitronaphtalene. No percentages
given.
They also used Heinei trinitophenetole [2,4,5-trinitrophenetol, Ethyl picrate?] and trinitroanisole [methy picrate].
TM9 -1985-6
Italian and French Explosive Ordnance
March 1953
French Bombs
M Mn — Trimonite (U.S.A.)
70% melinite (picric acid)
30% monotrinitronapthalene
M Dn [MDN] or MFDN
80% melinite
20% dinitronapthalene
D D—Shellite (British)
60% melinite
40% dinitrophenol
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The WiZard is In
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We got's two out of three....
This from a book I am not going to tell you the title
of as I own only 1 of its 2 (3?) volumes and I don't
need any competition looking for the missing volume(s).
However, I'll give you a hint - it is the book that
Fededoroff co-authored before he did PATR-2700.
....
The Explosive characteristics of metallic picrates are given
by J. D. Hopper, J. Franklin Inst., 225, 219-25, 1938....
H. Kast, Z. ges. Schiess-Sprengstofw., 6, 7, 31,67
describes the properties of different picrates and Silberrad
and Phillips, J. Chem. Soc., 93, 474, 1908, gives
their temperatures of ignition.
Hopper not found @ Google.com/books.
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grndpndr
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I was familiar with the eutectic trimonite using the mononitro/pa IIRC the mononitro having a lower melting temp than pa. for Safetys sake. 60/40 i
think cliamed 7050 FWIW
I can't recall off hand but thought that MP of DNN was higher than PA!A potentially dangerous situation as it seems to me the MP of PA is within a few
degrees of decomp.Any comment on the admixture of AN with a PA/MNN eutctic. likelyhood rapid Decomposition?THANKS
again! I have a hard copy of a portion of a paper entitled metallic picrates!its not at hand so I cant say if its the same but thanks all for the
other leads.I have located quite a few but none I recall give a clear answer if a eutectic composition containing AN will be stable enough for @
minimum a few months to a year under good storage coditions..stable moderate temps,humidity.
[Edited on 8-8-2010 by grndpndr]
[Edited on 8-8-2010 by grndpndr]
[Edited on 8-8-2010 by grndpndr]
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The WiZard is In
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Posts: 1617
Registered: 3-4-2010
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| Quote: Originally posted by grndpndr | I was familiar with the eutectic trimonite using the mononitro/pa IIRC the mononitro having a lower melting temp than pa. for Safetys sake. 60/40 i
think cliamed 7050 FWIW
I can't recall off hand but thought that MP of DNN was higher than PA!A potentially dangerous situation as it seems to me the MP of PA is within a few
degrees of decomp.Any comment on the admixture of AN with a PA/MNN eutctic. likelyhood rapid Decomposition?THANKS |
Capt. Colver in his 1918 opus High Explosives —
Melting points.
Picric acid 50% 122o
Nitronapthalene [which one?] 50% 61o
Mixture 49o
Picric acid 50% 122
TNT 50% 80
Mixture 47
Picric acid 50% 122
Trinitrocresol 50% 107
Mixture 70
Picric acid 66% 122
Trinitrocresol 33% 107
Mixture 78
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