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Author: Subject: U.S. Department of Justice has a new batch of records.
chromium
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<I>It is not the police who pass these laws nor actually write them, but yet when you read them clearly they are so broad as to give the police you mention the right to do whatsoever they choose at the time. If what you said was true and merely the police was the problem then the laws would not be written the way they are.</I>

When Michael Moore interviews John Conyers about passing Patriot act without reading it he gets calm answer "Sit down, my son. We don't read most of the bills."

Congresmen do not read, and those who write are also negligent and irresponsible in theyr work. This is why we get such absurdic laws, not that someone wants them to be absurdic. They just do not care. I know, i may be wrong, but this is how i see it.

[Edited on 10-10-2005 by chromium]
Magpie
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IrC I have read your interesting story about your Walmart experience. I agree with every thing you said and did but I would not do this as it is "wrestling with pigs." You know - you get covered with shit and they like it.

Telling your experiences to your peers (us) is good as we understand, comiserate, and receive support for our problems. But arguing with the general public is, unfortunately, futile and most likely counterproductive, unless you don't mind being a martyr.

To woelen: The reason the USA sounds so bad but in fact is so good is like I have been telling vulture: our press (TV, etc) is too active, pervasive, watched, and international. Turn off TV and the USA gets much better.

The single most important condition for a successful synthesis is good mixing - Nicodem
IrC
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No doubt you are right but he hit a sore spot with me as I could see what he was thinking in the words he spoke, and I was infuriated to be thought of as a common criminal. I even said something along the lines of I am old and halfass respectable looking, insomuch as at least I didn't look like manson or something and the reply was "we bust 78 year old grandmothers making meth". I swear I am not making any of this up. I was not really wrestling with the cops so to speak as the guy was very nice it was the mindset I was going against. If we do not start putting a better face on things like this sooner or later all we love will be taken away while we stood by and did nothing. At least this is how I see it.

chromium, don't get me wrong I was not really in disagreement with your post previously made, you are right it is cops much of the time, but the laws are what is really wrecking our way of life little by little day by day. Things are not helped by the whackos out there who do evil things which it seems in the end results in knee jerk laws being poorly written and even more poorly interpreted and enforced. Such as the post about the ATF just made at the end of the first page. You are right the U.S. is not as bad as it sounds but then again it is very much worse than it should be. For whatever it's worth this is how I see it. I see no reason a guy cannot make "safe" fireworks and safely have some fun with them. It should not be a federal case and if the ATF was involved clearly they are treating it as federal. Even to the point of spying on business records just to see who orders what. The spying should not include the amateur hobbyist buying small amounts say under 2 pounds (or something like that amount) of a substance used for homemade fireworks. This idea of a bad mindset about our hobby (remember it is not ALL hobby, I for one hope I can make some money off a good idea in my researches on say the glow powders or whatever) includes the overall general public, in many ways I notice they have an even worse mindset overall than the lawmakers or enforcers.

I am glad Vulture brought this thread back up with his invite, I had been stewing about that whole walmart incident a few days now. I am not mad at the officer, but I do disagree with the attitude prevalent out there surrounding anything chemical in the hands of John Q. Public.
Magpie
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I also would hate to be accused of being a common criminal. Like you the most heinous crime I have ever been convicted of is a traffic ticket.

I also hate to see our blood bought precious civil liberties being rapidly taken away and with hardly a complaint from the general public. I am retired and have thought that if I ever did any volunteer work it would be for the American Civil Liberties Union. I think the only way to make any headway against this crap is through the courts. The general public is just overwhelmed by the press reports of the actions of terrorists. They never stop to think that they are much more likely to be hit by lighting than blown up by a terrorist.

[Edited on 11-10-2005 by Magpie]

The single most important condition for a successful synthesis is good mixing - Nicodem
vulture
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 Quote: I mentioned that a gallon of SLX would cost me 20, another 20 for the S/H, and another 20 for the hazard fee, or roughly 60 bucks to get a damn 12 dollar at walmart can of alcohol. Was he out of his f****** mind?

Maybe, maybe not.
However, you mention something important here. If the government regulates everything, big companies get more contracts (as in your case). They then have more money to buy politicians and to lobby. See where this is going?
Police officers get more goodies and they can lock away more people for petty crimes, reinforcing the jail industry etc ad nauseam.

As a home chemist, even if you're making perfectly legal stuff, you're a threat to the system, because you are independent.
Instead of buying "pH neutral" alcohol for 5$per pint, you mix up something more effective and cheaper. Corporate greed. Do you think (your) politicians give a flying fuck about terrorist casualties or casualties in general? One shouldn't accept or resort to the mutilation of science to appease the mentally impaired. Bill Harmless Posts: 26 Registered: 12-8-2005 Member Is Offline Mood: No Mood  Quote: Originally posted by woelen One thing I do not understand. At one side I read all these scary things about the USA. On the other side, most of my reagents are from the USA, simply because I cannot obtain them from any European suppliers. So, 80% of all my chems are ordered from US-based companies and eBay sellers, including the more 'dangeous' ones, like strong oxidizers, poisonous ones etc. Can you give any explanations for this, you US-based guys? Do you expect me to have troubles getting into your country (e.g. as a tourist, or for business), due to payments records with creditcard or Paypal? Last time I was in the USA was in 1994, but that was before the Internet-period and before I ordered any chems from the USA. I bought chemicals and glassware in the USA for at least 40 years and never got into legal trouble. No feds or LE ever came to my house. I never bought any list 1 chemicals, BTW. Here's another thing you wouldn't expect from what the witch hunters are saying: http://www.geocities.com/milkmandan2003/braindrain2.htm http://www.geocities.com/milkmandan2003/AgeBar1.htm http://www.geocities.com/milkmandan2003/AgeBar2.htm http://home.ripway.com/2003-12/43034/text/NobelPrizes.doc [Edited on 2-1-2006 by Bill] [Edited on 2-1-2006 by Bill] Bill Harmless Posts: 26 Registered: 12-8-2005 Member Is Offline Mood: No Mood Quote: Originally posted by vulture  Quote: I mentioned that a gallon of SLX would cost me 20, another 20 for the S/H, and another 20 for the hazard fee, or roughly 60 bucks to get a damn 12 dollar at walmart can of alcohol. Was he out of his f****** mind? Maybe, maybe not. However, you mention something important here. If the government regulates everything, big companies get more contracts (as in your case). They then have more money to buy politicians and to lobby. See where this is going? Police officers get more goodies and they can lock away more people for petty crimes, reinforcing the jail industry etc ad nauseam. As a home chemist, even if you're making perfectly legal stuff, you're a threat to the system, because you are independent. Instead of buying "pH neutral" alcohol for 5$ per pint, you mix up something more effective and cheaper. Corporate greed.

Do you think (your) politicians give a flying fuck about terrorist casualties or casualties in general?

Mood: schizophrenic
Yes, that's true.
innervision
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Mood: eh.

What I find interesting is that stores are getting those automatic checkout stations where you check out your own stuff, pay, and then leave with no interaction with any employees. In the case of stores requiring ID and signature for certain solvent purchases which I read in a similar thread here, how will that work? Maybe soon it will be mandatory to insert an official ID?

To further this, I was at a Walmart a while ago and picked up one box of 1000 packs of matches that I happened to see while shopping for other things because they were really cheap and I figured they could be useful someday. I also had some other random things like string, big plastic eyedropper and other stuff that would't be unusual.

I went to the automatic checkout, scanned everything, paid, bagged it and proceeded to leave the store. When I got to the exit door, that employee that stands by the door and welcomes guests and says bye/thank you, said hold on...wait here, and walked over to some counter and said something to somebody who then got on the phone.

I immediately got the hell out of there. I don't know what that was about but I didn't want to find out.

I know what matches CAN be used for, but being hassled for buying one box is rediculous...if that it what it was about. I don't remember what else I bout that day, but that is the only thing I can think of as to why it happened.

I think walmart is becoming an untrustworthy place to buy regular things.
joeflsts
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Interesting.. I purchased the same quantity of matches not too long ago and never heard a peep.

Joe
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Matches

Innervision, maybe they think you're making a crude pipe bomb or extracting RP to make meth.
Personally, I 've never had a problem with Walmart. Only 1 time did I have a problem. That
was at Toys-R-Us with a soccer-mom bitch clerk who acted like I was a nut when I asked
about paper roll caps. Judging by her reaction, you would have thought that I was asking
about a machine gun. FUCK THOSE WANKERS !

From opening of NCIS New Orleans - It goes a BOOM ! BOOM ! BOOM ! MUHAHAHAHAHAHAHA !
Chris The Great
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The nice people at WalMart asked if I wanted to buy any ammunition when I was 16 and paused by their ammo case to see what they had. I declined since I had no ID to prove I was old enough (which I wasn't).

I dunno, any store that asks youth if they would like to buy 100 packs of 12 gauge buckshot must be doing something right
Magpie
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I've often wondered what kind of spy training the clerks at the various retail stores are getting. I suppose it all depends on local conditions. Ace Hardware makes me register to buy acetone, another hardware store does not.

If the greeters at your Wally World are alarmed at your sizeable purchase of matches I wonder what the alarm point is for coffee filters?

[Edited on 13-2-2006 by Magpie]

The single most important condition for a successful synthesis is good mixing - Nicodem
joeflsts
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Magpie,
I can check on this if you'd like. I have a friend that is a manager at a "super" hardware store. Let me know.
Magpie
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Yes, joeflsts, see what you can find out, if it isn't too much trouble. Then let us know.

The single most important condition for a successful synthesis is good mixing - Nicodem
quicksilver
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 Quote: Originally posted by innervision To further this, I was at a Walmart a while ago and picked up one box of 1000 packs of matches that I happened to see while shopping for other things because they were really cheap and I figured they could be useful someday. I also had some other random things like string, big plastic eyedropper and other stuff that would't be unusual. I went to the automatic checkout, scanned everything, paid, bagged it and proceeded to leave the store. When I got to the exit door, that employee that stands by the door and welcomes guests and says bye/thank you, said hold on...wait here, and walked over to some counter and said something to somebody who then got on the phone. I immediately got the hell out of there. I don't know what that was about but I didn't want to find out. I think walmart is becoming an untrustworthy place to buy regular things.

It sounds like their LP (Loss Prevention) people went ape-shit. I just can't see them being astute enough to piece together another motive. They possibly thought you stole something.
The "Greeter" could have made a "bad call". You may have wanted to stick around so you could give them a deep ration of shit for being so unpleasent and stupid.

[Edited on 14-2-2006 by quicksilver]
joeflsts
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 Quote: Originally posted by Magpie Yes, joeflsts, see what you can find out, if it isn't too much trouble. Then let us know.

Okay so I talked with him today. He is a manager and has attended all the sales trainings and he knows of my hobby. Now keep in mind that we have been friends for a very long time and I trust him.

Not only do they NOT attend any type of government sponsored training he said that if someone came in and bought 200 cases of muratic acid the only discussions would be the huge sale and the positive hit to their weekly sales projection.

No monitoring of any sales activities at the cashier level.

Joe
Magpie
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Thanks for your research joeflsts. Very interesting. I'm assuming that the subject store is part of a national chain? It seems like they would be the most likely to be the target of government pressure.

As I reported some time ago my son's colleague was harassed for buying a case of isopropyl alcohol by a clerk. His reply: "It's cheaper than vodka!"

He was also questioned about a large puchase of Simple Green! WTF

The single most important condition for a successful synthesis is good mixing - Nicodem
joeflsts
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 Quote: Originally posted by Magpie Thanks for your research joeflsts. Very interesting. I'm assuming that the subject store is part of a national chain? It seems like they would be the most likely to be the target of government pressure. As I reported some time ago my son's colleague was harassed for buying a case of isopropyl alcohol by a clerk. His reply: "It's cheaper than vodka!" He was also questioned about a large puchase of Simple Green! WTF

Reminds me of when I was first starting work after school. I took a job as a field tech repairing electronic equipment. I was standing in line one day at a retail establishment and a woman with more attitude than I will ever be capable of asked why someone my age would need a pager. Keep in mind this was almost 20 years ago so I told her that it was to keep in touch with my prostitutes.

Oh, yes the store is a very large retail chain that is very well known.

Joe

[Edited on 14-2-2006 by joeflsts]
innervision
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Hmmm. I don't know. I am fairly sure it wasn't about loss prevention. I would think if they were watching me on camera or something and thought they saw something suspicious that they would already have somebody waiting at the door for me. What made me suspicious was that nothing was out of place, but once I scanned those matches (speculation here, a signal was sent out about "drug precursors," they eyeballed me, and seeing how i was a young adult, that the "drug frenzy switch" was flicked on in their heads or something. Maybe buying it without a checkout person added to the suspicion.

Maybe I should have stayed just to see wat would have happened. After all, I wasn't making drugs and had nothing to worry about anyway. That was months ago and I still have all but maybe two packs of those matches.

Ace hardware can be scratched off my list of resources though. Needing to sign for everyday solvents is ridiculous, and having to buy extra strength acetone is even more ridiculous. I hope no other money hungry hardware stores follow in their path.
vulture
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It's the US right? Just threaten to sue their ass if they insist on keeping you in the store against your will. That should work.

It's a low margin high profit corporation after all. Touch their pennies and they'll come crawling.

[Edited on 16-2-2006 by vulture]

One shouldn't accept or resort to the mutilation of science to appease the mentally impaired.
innervision
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Yep, US - the land of the lawsuit. That's probably one of the worst things that could have happened to America. You can't do anything anymore because people just can't wait to slap you with a lawsuit. If there's a near impossible chance that somebody might get hurt, then it must be stopped before we could get sued!

What's worse is when you are forced to use those very tactics just to be able to do the right thing, or pursue a hobby, or do something to gain knowledge. In the case of a super giant like Wal-Mart; who even has the money to fight?

The more I think about it, the more I think I should have stayed that day. Not to threaten them with lawsuits, but just to find out what it was they wanted. To find out what perfectly legal thing I could have possibly done for them to retain me.
JohnWW
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Yes. Why is it that the U.S.A., with only 5% of the world's population, has 70% of the world's lawyers?
evil_lurker
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Mood: On the wagon again.

One thing I have learned is that generally every run in with Law Enforcement only leads to two things... lost time and/or money.

Doesn't matter if your in the right or wrong. If your in the right, it only makes them look harder for something to nail you with.

A good example is with one of my aquaintences. He got into a dispute with a cop and clearly was in the right. When he told the cop of his position and that he wasn't about to do what the cop wanted, he was arrested for disorderly conduct... on his own property!

In the post 9/11 USA, chemistry is feared thing. If you tell somone your into chemistry as a hobby when aquiring a chemical your instantly branded in their mind a terrorist k3wl meth cook.

Never let anyone know what you actually intend to do with a chemical other than its generally accepted use and avoid all law enforcement contact.

If you want to research with more serious chemicals, get a business license and incorporate.
unionised
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Just a thought. Does a cop who says "I am an off duty detective and I arrest 2 people a day for posession of these drug precursors", get paid by arrests- of which he no doubt has many- or by successful prosecutions - of which he seems to thick to get any?
Bill
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bill
 Quote: Originally posted by woelen One thing I do not understand. At one side I read all these scary things about the USA. On the other side, most of my reagents are from the USA, simply because I cannot obtain them from any European suppliers. So, 80% of all my chems are ordered from US-based companies and eBay sellers, including the more 'dangeous' ones, like strong oxidizers, poisonous ones etc. Can you give any explanations for this, you US-based guys? Do you expect me to have troubles getting into your country (e.g. as a tourist, or for business), due to payments records with creditcard or Paypal? Last time I was in the USA was in 1994, but that was before the Internet-period and before I ordered any chems from the USA.

I bought chemicals and glassware in the USA for at least 40 years and never got into legal trouble. No feds or LE ever came to my house. I never bought any list 1 chemicals, BTW.

Here's another thing you wouldn't expect from what the witch hunters are saying:

http://www.geocities.com/milkmandan2003/braindrain2.htm

http://www.geocities.com/milkmandan2003/AgeBar1.htm

http://www.geocities.com/milkmandan2003/AgeBar2.htm

http://home.ripway.com/2003-12/43034/text/NobelPrizes.doc

[Edited on 2-1-2006 by Bill]

[Edited on 2-1-2006 by Bill]

Here's something else that will make you jealous.
http://www.the-scientist.com/article/display/22672/
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 Sciencemadness Discussion Board » Non-chemistry » Legal and Societal Issues » U.S. Department of Justice has a new batch of records. Select A Forum Fundamentals   » Chemistry in General   » Organic Chemistry   » Reagents and Apparatus Acquisition   » Beginnings   » Responsible Practices   » Miscellaneous   » The Wiki Special topics   » Technochemistry   » Energetic Materials   » Biochemistry   » Radiochemistry   » Computational Models and Techniques   » Prepublication Non-chemistry   » Forum Matters   » Legal and Societal Issues