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Author: Subject: Microwave-made Nitric Acid
12AX7
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[*] posted on 6-7-2005 at 23:00


Ozone must mean it's hot enough to break the O2 double bond but not the N2 triple bond...

Maybe you should lead microwaves into a toroidial magnetic field. :D Then while you're at it, add some deuterium and tritium. :D ;)

Tim




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[*] posted on 7-7-2005 at 02:50


I've read somewhere that if some nitrogen monoxide is present, it will catalyse the destruction of the ozone.

The equations:
O + N20 ------>2NO
O3 + NO ----> NO2 + O2
NO2 + O ------>NO + O2

where the Os are the oxygen atoms that have broken apart from the molecule.
The net effect is:
O3 + O ----->2O2 and the nitrogen monoxide is regenerated. Perhaps if some nitrogen monoxide are dinitrogen oxide is added, it could help the ozone break down....But that would mean more energy is just wasted as the microwave creates more ozone...

Maybe if pure nitrogen gas were to be pumped into the bowl instead of using air?




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12AX7
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[*] posted on 7-7-2005 at 05:18


As I recall from somewhere, NO + O = NO2 is preferred, hence NO turns brown in air.

Tim




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[*] posted on 7-7-2005 at 17:36


Actually it may be the other way around.

In the patent and the paper I cited, the microwave discharge is confined to a shorted waveguide; thus the electric field would be significantly higer and consequently the electron energy and temperature would be higher as well, theoretically resulting in more NO.

I would think you would want to flow the air through this hot zone.

Quote:
Originally posted by Samosa
My friend stopped by today and we got to run a few more tests on the microwave. The big conclusion of the day is that reasonable yields will only be obtained from large reaction vessels--the higher the volume, the better. :P
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[*] posted on 22-7-2005 at 23:35
Modern Electrochemistry


Modern Electrochemistry by John Bockris Vol 1 & 2

http://rapidshare.de/files/3096358/electrochemistry_1.djvu.h...

http://rapidshare.de/files/3262784/electrochemistry_2.djvu.h...
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[*] posted on 23-7-2005 at 04:42


Hello Ayush,

I'm not sure how electrochemistry is related to "Microwave-made Nitric Acid", but thanks for the links.

In any case, it gives me an idea: Given the high flame temperature, I wonder if an oxyhydrogen torch would be a good heat source for making nitric oxide? (I've seen small electrolysis-powered torches for sale somewhere on the internet).

Regards,
Joe
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[*] posted on 28-8-2005 at 08:56
700 Watt Microwave Oven At Local Store For $29.00


A local store is now selling a 700 watt microwave oven for $29.00 USD.

At that ridiculously low price, it seems to me that the microwave oven method may be the best, if a few practical details of implementation can be worked out.

Unfortunately I don't yet have a place to work, but I hope to eventually get around to try the method described in the attached patent.

Attachment: 6696662.pdf (877kB)
This file has been downloaded 814 times

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[*] posted on 8-10-2005 at 04:48


Naudin is a crackpot. Just look at his lifter page.



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[*] posted on 1-12-2010 at 14:04


http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=1518&a...

.
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[*] posted on 17-11-2014 at 02:39


the idea i am getting from this is this. first off this needs some engineering. alright, here, using what jpsmith123 mentions about the arc being concentrated, the idea will involve

this and an air compressor into a quartz (very thick wall) vessel (all shielding will need to be taken care of, this is not this post's focus). this vessel is formed with an in and outlet

that enter and exit the microwave, THERE IS NO WATER IN THE MICROWAVE. the gas is catalyzed by rhodium or rhodium/platinum which is either in the vessel, or in an exit

chamber before bubling into water to turn the NO to NO2 and possibly lower the activations of pathways leading to NO. the ideal way to run it seems to to me to be in pulses and

or with patterning run from a computer and is run with respect to pressure expansion, and has to take into account that/energy absorption. it will seemingly take good calculations

and tinkering. the catalyst seems to need to be inside the flask as to become exited, which also seems to add to the reactivity/pressure increase. this gas when uncompressed

into water will seemingly cool it greatly and absorb well into it. the catalyst needs to be kept from turning to plasma and depleting/contaminating the end product, although it may

be easily filtered, i am not sure. the electrodes themselves i guess are idealy the catalyst, arcing as jpsmith123 wrote.

[Edited on 17-11-2014 by quantumcorespacealchemyst]
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[*] posted on 17-11-2014 at 03:22


The appeal of this synthesis is the cheap availability of the equipment and reagents. If you are doing significant engineering on it, playing with quartz vessels or catalysing using rhodium then you have missed the point of the exercise in my opinion.

I suspect this thread has been dead for nine years because the yield is too low to be practical.
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[*] posted on 17-11-2014 at 03:41


Quote:
I suspect this thread has been dead for nine years because the yield is too low to be practical.

Indeed, even with cheap Norwegian hydroelectric power, the BE process was found uneconomical since the conversion rate was in the region of only 3% . . .
Quote:
...the gas is catalyzed by rhodium or rhodium/platinum which is either in the vessel, or in an exit.

Nitric oxide is oxidised by O2 on contact; NO2 is seen as a heavy brown vapour!


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[*] posted on 17-11-2014 at 15:47


i see, anyways the catalyst may help or at least do something weird. i figure why not revive it with a optimization/efficiency approach, using the be process and microwave and

compressing the gas? i dont know if there is a better yield being compressed, especially if arcing through the liquid portion, or liquid portion up into the gaseous part? birkeland

eyde process theads may not want to divert to this non standard approach, though i hope they do. this forum while dead dfoes have the title and will draw search results for

microwaves and nitric acid. what do you think? i will repost this anyway on birkeland eyde threads. thanks
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[*] posted on 18-11-2014 at 07:31


Quote:
...i see, anyways the catalyst may help or at least do something weird.

A PGM catalyst that may reduce your NO2 to N2 as happens in cat.converters is not what you need?

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[*] posted on 20-11-2014 at 20:37


i see what you mean, i didn't think of that. the weird thing i don't get is that heated platinum wire in the ostwald process turns ammonia to NO2 (or NO which oxidizes with O2 to NO2). in the plant, i think the second step happens away from the catalyst, but in demonstrations i have seen, the flask with the hot Pt wire dipped in it, with NH3, turns the gas layer brown with NO2. is it the heated Pt that behaves different? perhaps something to do with equilibrium? the concentration of ammonia overpowering the NO2 till it reaches an equilibrium of decomposing the NO2 and producing NO and NO2?

one thing besides is if the birkeland eyde and haber process combine (although i don't know about haber-bosh effect actually happening at 300x less pressure) the N2 would seemingly want to become NH3 and well this is a mess with H2O being electrolyzed and expected to form those pathways instead of straight back to water. haha. although those people doing cold fusion research may be splitting the water with high voltage and pressure creating plasmas. going with guessing, there may be something here nonetheless.

did't find the video of a lab experiment i saw, but this seems to be more than adequate to show what i mean. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMFvzohuVew

only, 500kV or more instead.

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[*] posted on 20-11-2014 at 20:40
backup from the video that is linked in the last post


How to reproduce this experiment

The CFR project is a High Temperature Plasma Electrolysis fully based on the Tadahiko Mizuno experiment from the university of Hokkaido in Japan. This is a very interesting experiment and its implication can be a real breakthrough in the field of New and Clean energy source....

The enhanced CFR is composed of a 2000 mL thermostatic reaction vessel filled with 800 mL of demineralized water and Potassium Carbonate ( K2CO3 ). The electrolyte solution commonly used is 0.5 molar ( 0.5 M ).

There are three temperature probes ( K probe or PT100 ). Two probes are used for measuring the temperature of the cooling water (Temp In and Temp Out ),
and one probe is used for measuring the temperature of the electrolyte solution. You need also to use a flowmeter to measure the cooling water flow.

The Cathode used is a 4 mm tungsten rod. The tungsten rod can be a pure tungsten rod or a Th-loaded tungsten TIG electrode (WT20) (with thorium oxide ThO2: 1.70% to 2.20% ) commonly used for plasma welding. The use of a Th-loaded rod increases the life of your cathod. The sputtering effect produced by the thermionic emission is lower with a Th-loaded rod than with a pure tungsten rod.

The anode used is composed of stainless steel mesh ( a grid ) maintained with stainless steel rods. If you have planned to conduct some chemical analysis, I recommend you to use a grid made with platinum or nickel . All the wires connections are made with a 1.5 mm2 copper flexible wire gained with silicon.

To avoid projections of some drops of the electrolyte solution from the CFR during the plasma ignition sequence, I recommend you to put floating balls on the surface of the liquid (hollow floating balls; pp, 20mm, 2000 PK from Cole Parmer Instrument ).

Use a DC Power Supply which is able to give about 300 V DC at 20 A ( don't use AC voltage ). The voltage is tuned with an autotransformer

Switch on the fume hood,
Set the autotransformer to 0 Volt and switch on the power supply,
The voltmeter (set on DC) is connected at the input of the CFR cell and the DC current clamp is connected on the positive wire,
Turn the knob of the autotransformer so as to get 30V DC on the CFR cell,
Let the electrolysis warm up the cell up to 50°C,
At 50°C drop the voltage to 0 Volt and switch off the main power supply,
Wait 30 sec to exhaust the mixture of hydrogen/oxygen,
Measure the temperature ( TSinp ) of the input of the cooling water,
Measure the temperature ( TSout ) of the output of the cooling water.
Measure the temperature ( Tr_initial ) of the electrolyte then, immediatly, switch on the power supply,
Slowly, turn the autotransformer knob so as to get 200 VDC across the cell. Start the chronometer,
Note the Voltage and Current values at the permanent regime (pink glow discharge),
End the run after ~3 minutes. ( set the voltage to 0 Volt and switch off the power supply ). Stop the chronometer (time).
Measure the temperature ( Tr_final ) of the electrolyte,
Measure the flow of the cooling water (Flow in L/min),
Measure the temperature ( TEinp ) of the input of the cooling water,
Measure the temperature ( TEout ) of the output of the cooling water.
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[*] posted on 21-11-2014 at 04:50


could this be used for vapor phase nitration
http://www.google.com/patents/US4347389

but the organic compound may catch fire
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[*] posted on 12-12-2014 at 04:14


i am wondering about the mechanical properties of quartz with thick walls to do stuff such as this and that patent you linked. i believe we need a glass section on here.
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[*] posted on 15-12-2014 at 15:39


Hi
I just wanted to point out that most modern microwave ovens (at least in uk) have features like defrost setting etc, these dont reduce the power of the magnetron but instead reduce the time it is on for.
So for example stick in a chicken turn to full power then choose defrost, the magnetron fires up (you here the transformer hum away) for a little bit then turns off, the plate continues to rotate and after a bit the magnetron fires up for a little bit then turns off again etc etc etc.
So using that saves you having to rest the magnetron, plus most will over heat the transformer and cut out by temp sensor way before you damage it, the cheaper the microwave oven the better. this is because its cheaper to just have one setting for the magnetron and the manufacture just adjusts the time it fires for depending on how long and what setting you use. Sorry did that make any sense?




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