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Author: Subject: What do to with KMnO4?
DeAdFX
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[*] posted on 23-11-2005 at 17:34


YOu could use it in oscillating reactions. I don't know of any but it shouldn't be to difficult to find some via google.

I just got 2 lbs of KMnO4. I think I will devote 1-1.5lbs of it to pyrotechnics then the other .5-1lbs to other forms of chemistry.
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[*] posted on 23-11-2005 at 21:11


Quote:
Originally posted by DeAdFX
YOu could use it in oscillating reactions. I don't know of any but it shouldn't be to difficult to find some via google.


I am unaware that there are oscillating reactions that use KMnO4. I know of the Briggs-Rauscher and the Belousov-Zhabotinsky reactions though, and neither use potassium permanganate
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[*] posted on 23-11-2005 at 22:56


Just an idea, but how about permanganate esters (assuming that there's a way to stop the permanganate from simply oxidising the alcohol)?

Any thoughts?




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[*] posted on 24-11-2005 at 10:27


Searching google for "organic permanganates" doesn't give much but

Because being in solution (permanganates(VII) being soluble in water but
not most organic solvents) enables the MnO4- anions (which are
symmetrical, being resonance-stabilized) to collide and react with the
glycerol molecules. Covalent and organic permanganates(VII), e.g. a
glycerol ester, are too unstable to exist at ordinary temperatures.
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[*] posted on 2-1-2007 at 00:19


On the small scale, this picture represents perhaps 3g of permanganate added to an excess sulfuric acid in a large, well-cleaned Pyrex crystalization tray (or a baking dish :P ). As is readily seen in the picture, the green oil does in fact float, you can even see the red haze of HMnO4 on the glass. Smells keenly of ozone, very irritating. We used a stainless steel spatula to dab at the Mn2O7 and then 2 meters away we would touch it on a small syracuse watch glass of acetone or methyl ethyl ketone. There was a loud report and white flash, accompanied with a 'sooty' smoke of MnO2. All this from a few tenths of a mL of Mn2O7.


Quote:
Originally posted by The_Davster
Brauer has a very good synth or Mn2O7, it gets you the pure liquid Mn2O7, not what we get by simply mixing KMnO4 and H2SO4 in a beaker, a solution of it in sulphuric acid with lots of K2SO4 contamination with a little pure liquid on top. It requires a mortar and pestle that I think is wrecked after the synth as a step involves squeezing out the Mn2O7 from the walls of the mortar with the pestle. :P I plan on trying this method once I get a cheap mortar and pestle that I can afford to loose, the one I have now is expensive. I believe Ikea has some cheap ones...

Oh and Hinz, the pure Mn2O7 floats on top of the Mn2O7/sulphuric acid solution, not on the bottom

[Edited on 3-8-2005 by rogue chemist]



More pictures to post! I must disagree with Rogue Chemist/The_Davster on this one, however, as Brauer's prep went disastrously wrong for us when we tried it using their proportions. Looking back we made some critical mistakes. My friend will explain his horrific experience with this potent oxidizer... Yea, we can tell you what not to do with potassium permanganate :(

Picture for your enjoyment:

[Edited on 2-1-2007 by Fleaker]

heptoxide slug2.jpg - 275kB




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NERV
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[*] posted on 2-1-2007 at 01:30


Well let me tell you a little horror story about this beautiful yet terrible substance. While Fleaker and I were preparing dimanganese heptaoxide following the method in Brauers (we cleaned a mortar and pestle thoroughly with peroxysulfuric acid even) everything was going fine and dandy. The oil was forming with its brilliant green luster that was just so mesmerizing. As I was finishing up grinding the mixture gently horror struck as a loud crack and a geyser of purple smoke was witnessed by me and my lab partner. He had a full face shield, and got away with minor burns and has no scars. Immediately, however I felt a searing pain that is only describable as what I would consider the tortures of hell to be shot up my arm. I looked down in horror to see the flesh on my arm sparking, and searing as the heptaoxide caused my flesh to ignite on contact. Without a moments hesitation I was flying through the door to my house stripping my burning clothing off as I ran to the shower upstairs. When I got there I found that my shower door was not opening quite fast enough so in a fit of horrid pain, adrenaline, and fury I smashed the door off of my shower. I immediately jumped in half clothed with ice cold water pouring all over me. Yet it did nothing for the pain and after an half hour of intense scrubbing I applied burn cream, which did little for my pain. I looked over my clothing which was scorched, and completely destroyed from the accident, thankful I was still alive. The truly frightening part though was my goggles which were completely scorched! If it was not for them I would be blind today. The moral of this story….. BE EXTREMELY CAREFUL WITH DIMANGANESE HEPTAOXIDE!!!! You never know what it plans to do, and always wear your goggles because you never know when they might just save your eyes. You only have one pair, take good care of them!

I write this as a dead serious warning to anyone who even considers making this compound. I refuse to ever manufacture it again, and I recommend you study it in theory for anyone else unless you have the best safety equipment available on this planet (that means robotic fucking arms)!

P.S. My shower door has never quite worked right from that day forth.

P.P.S. I think it decomposed because of the humidity and heat of the outside where we did it. Normally, we make it by adding permanganate to cold sulfuric in absolutely clean glassware. We should have chilled the reactants.




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[*] posted on 2-1-2007 at 02:02


hmm - scorched all your clothes - your arm and melted your goggles - shit -- what did you do? make a pound of it to start off with?? you never make a new substance that you have no experience with in that kind of quantity.. i learned this well with MEKP (my ears still ring just from thinking about it haha) -- well im glad to hear you survived another day to tell the story

by the way - if you ever wanted to dissolve someone this stuff would do it - i wonder what it does to bone.. haha bad..

[Edited on 2-1-2007 by jimmyboy]
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[*] posted on 2-1-2007 at 07:55


Actually I had several previous experiences with this substance beforehand that all went very well for me, and Fleaker. The amount produced was exactly the same amount pictured in Fleaker’s post right before my own. Some of the burning done to my clothing I believe was due to unconsumed sulfuric acid in the batch because I had not gotten it mixed all the way through at the time of the accident.


P.S. it wouldnt dissolve anyone it would cause them to burst into flame or spontaniously detonate.




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[*] posted on 2-1-2007 at 08:31


I have done some experiments with this compound (I call it 'liquid from hell' on my website), but I only made it in drop quantities and did not attempt to isolate it from the H2SO4/KHSO4 mix. It is insanely dangerous stuff though.

NERV, good to read that you did not loose your eyes with this! Did you have any residual damage to your body, such as scars or pains?




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[*] posted on 2-1-2007 at 10:03


Just goes to show that labgoggles really aren't something you can just dispense with "cause the pro's don't need them".

[Edited on Tue/Jan/2007 by Nerro]




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[*] posted on 2-1-2007 at 19:25


I performed the following experiment years ago:

3 ml Conc. Sulfuric Acid
6 ml Denatured Alcohol
0.2 g Potassium Permanganate
Test Tube

Add 3 ml Sulfuric Acid (Concentrated) to test tube.
Add 6 ml Alcohol carefully to test tube. It is imporant that the Alcohol and the Sulfuric Acid not mix. It procedure is properly carried out there will be a visible layer between the H2SO4 and the Alcohol.

** It is very helpful to add the ethanol by holding the test tube at a 45 degree angle.

Lock the test tube in a the ring stand in a vertical position.

Carefully add the Potassium Permanganate.

As the Potassium Permanganate passes through the alcohol layer it immediately begins to react with the Sulfuric Acid. The reaction is visible and the Potassium Permanganate starts to change to a dark brown color.

Shortly after the reaction begins, small sparks and explosions followed by "cracking sounds" begin to be visible and audible from the test tube.

This reaction will last for quite a bit of time.

CAUTION:

When disposing of the mixture it is very important that it be destroyed under water. The mixing of the Sulfuric Acid and Alcohol will explode. In fact I was amazed that it create quite a fireball - Under Water !

Joe
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[*] posted on 2-1-2007 at 21:05


Quote:
Originally posted by woelen
I have done some experiments with this compound (I call it 'liquid from hell' on my website), but I only made it in drop quantities and did not attempt to isolate it from the H2SO4/KHSO4 mix. It is insanely dangerous stuff though.

NERV, good to read that you did not loose your eyes with this! Did you have any residual damage to your body, such as scars or pains?


Yeah, it was the ultimate lesson in the importance of goggles in lab work. I admit that before this incident I wouldn’t wear goggles sometimes, but never again will I go without them. I have the ultimate respect for them because I would most likely be blind today without them. As for Scaring I was lucky enough to only end up with two small permanent marks on my wrist, everything else pretty much healed up (of course when my pale arse gets tan the other marks start to become visible). The pain lasted for only for a day or so, after that I stopped feeling the burns. I was lucky enough not get the full amount of heptoxide on me as most of it ended up on my moms patio which she was not too pleased about.

I had originally not wanted to make the stuff because of how unstable it is, but Fleaker convinced me against my better judgment that we could do it safely. We did to at least twice before this try, and then luck just ran out. Last time he will get me to do stupid shit like that in our Lab ever again I am just glad that we never made the large amount he wanted to do.

P.S. no hard feelings Fleaker, I agreed to it so there’s no one to blame, but me really.




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[*] posted on 2-1-2007 at 21:15


KMNO4 is neat stuff!

I have found that a mixture of KMNO4 and sucrose will ignite when gently tapped with a hammer. Please try this with safety glasses in the event that it explodes. I have done this many times without detonation, but...I believe it could happen.

Additionally, it can be used, when alkaline, to cleave ketones, viz. cyclohexanone to adipic acid (amoung others). It can also be used to oxidize benzyl carbon to the corresponding carboxylic acid.

So many uses, so little time-Be careful,

O3




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[*] posted on 2-1-2007 at 21:49


I did the Brauer procedure as well, in this thread:
https://sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=5557&...
(we have waay too many threads on this stuff)

I'm sorry to hear how your experiment went. Hope your burns heal quick!

I admit, I did not have the best habits for goggle-wearing either, but after an incident I now wear them more often, but still not always. I wear prescription glasses, which should be good for the least hazardous procedures, but they saved my eyesight once or twice already.

[Edited on 3-1-2007 by The_Davster]




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[*] posted on 2-1-2007 at 23:06


Quote:
saps wrote:
I believe that finely divided metal can float in the air even at modest temps. Particle size determines how dangerous they are. Inhaling such particles causes a fever. Different names apply (silicosis, smoke inhalation, welder's fever, etc) depending on what material has been inhaled. If this is true it probably isnt a good idea to heat potasium permangate without a mask...But do you think tyhat prolonged exposure to potasium permanganate and Glyceron reaction could be harmful.


This is true… apparently I have a mysterious and powerfull “allergy” when handling this substance.. so I put the dust mask, goggles, gloves (brown staining terribly the hands or any skin), moreover is a toxic material..

Quote:
Lambda wrotes:
Making Nitric acid with Potassium permanganate, Ammonia gas and recycling the process with Air (Oxygen) ???



I have forgotten the title of this book, but I think it was written by Robert Gatling. The Paladine Press once published it, and I have the book. When I find it, a scan will be made.

What doese the author of this book claime ?:

According to the author of this book, Nitric acid can be made by bubbling Ammonia gas through a solution of Potassium permanganate. The Ammonia gas is oxidized to Nitric acid in this way. Potassium permanganate may again be obtained by bubbling Air (Oxygen) through this solution (?). And thus, the whole process may be repeated, by only applying Ammonia gas, and again recycling with Air. A continuos process, may thus be astablished for the production of Nitric Acid.

Do you think that this process is feasible ?

Tried you (or anyone) this? If yes, can you (or anyone) provide more details? Thanks…
really sounds very interesting... :cool:

Quote:
Ozone wrote:
I have found that a mixture of KMNO4 and sucrose will ignite when gently tapped with a hammer. Please try this with safety glasses in the event that it explodes. I have done this many times without detonation, but...I believe it could happen.



Not is necessary a hammer…simple allow a drop of water fall in it… this mix is know by be highly unstable under moisture conditions, and is TRUE…
One question: I’ve noted in my experiments which this mix(KMnO4/sucrose) is much less reactive which the KMnO4/glycerin drops. Even when I powdered the sucrose to a very fine powder and mix very well with KMnO4 (also very fine powdered) ..This is due which the glycerin is more easy to be oxidized by KMnO4 than sucrose or which the glycerin(l) has a great surface area than sucrose(s)??? or both????

Thanks all, and sorry about my poor English or any stupid question…

[Editado em 3-1-2007 por Aqua_Fortis_100%]

[Editado em 3-1-2007 por Aqua_Fortis_100%]

[Editado em 3-1-2007 por Aqua_Fortis_100%]




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[*] posted on 4-1-2007 at 02:35


Quote:
Originally posted by joeflsts
I performed the following experiment years ago:

3 ml Conc. Sulfuric Acid
6 ml Denatured Alcohol
0.2 g Potassium Permanganate
Test Tube

Add 3 ml Sulfuric Acid (Concentrated) to test tube.
Add 6 ml Alcohol carefully to test tube. It is imporant that the Alcohol and the Sulfuric Acid not mix. It procedure is properly carried out there will be a visible layer between the H2SO4 and the Alcohol.

** It is very helpful to add the ethanol by holding the test tube at a 45 degree angle.

Lock the test tube in a the ring stand in a vertical position.

Carefully add the Potassium Permanganate.

As the Potassium Permanganate passes through the alcohol layer it immediately begins to react with the Sulfuric Acid. The reaction is visible and the Potassium Permanganate starts to change to a dark brown color.

Shortly after the reaction begins, small sparks and explosions followed by "cracking sounds" begin to be visible and audible from the test tube.

This reaction will last for quite a bit of time.

CAUTION:

When disposing of the mixture it is very important that it be destroyed under water. The mixing of the Sulfuric Acid and Alcohol will explode. In fact I was amazed that it create quite a fireball - Under Water !

Joe


I again did this a few days ago and made a cool video of this reaction. Have fun, but be very careful, especially the disposal is very critical!

http://woelen.scheikunde.net/science/chem/exps/mini-expl/ind...




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[*] posted on 28-2-2017 at 11:14


I've never gotten the opportunity to work with permanganates though i assure you that I certainly wouldn't want to make permanganic anhydride. one, I live in 'merica, the land of the scientifically illiterate and paranoid, so I'd probably would get arrested.:( Not to mention that my parents hate my lab as is ie. because this sort of thing isn't really legal or illegal where I live. Anything goes in this neck of the woods. Also they really wanted me to follow the family trade ex. banking, data management etc. Though since i'm very interested in things that they don't like or find morally objectionable (my family is rather religious) the amount of issues I run into would increase ten fold if I made this sort of hazardous material which says a lot. Also if I managed to get my hands on potassium permanganate I'd want to stash it in my survival kit for water treatment and fire starting:cool:. Also it would be a major flaw in common sense to work with high explosives in Central/North Jersey suburban home less than 2 hrs away from Mannhatan of all places thus why I use the jersey rebel as my psydonym/alias. What couldn't possibly go wrong! Please avoid this heptoxide stuff like the plague! I've never seen it in person but everything I've figured out online suggests that it's a dumb idea to make it. As NERV said, robotic arms are mandatory to work with this stuff. Unlike your arms, those can be disposed:P
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[*] posted on 28-2-2017 at 23:24


I played with MnO7 a year ago. Ended up with a ringing ears. :D And my advice - always do small quantities when playing with unknown!

https://youtu.be/s0YCwM8Gwqg




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[*] posted on 1-3-2017 at 07:02


I know you lot like your energetics, but I think KMnO4 makes some of the prettiest crystals! Easy to do too.

I spilt some solution onto some paper once and left it there - when I can back the paper had oxidised to burnt paper. It was like a very slow and very cold burning of the paper. Interesting stuff.




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[*] posted on 1-3-2017 at 07:38


Quote: Originally posted by The jersey rebel  
I've never gotten the opportunity to work with permanganates though i assure you that I certainly wouldn't want to make permanganic anhydride. one, I live in 'merica, the land of the scientifically illiterate and paranoid, so I'd probably would get arrested.:( Not to mention that my parents hate my lab as is ie. because this sort of thing isn't really legal or illegal where I live. Anything goes in this neck of the woods. Also they really wanted me to follow the family trade ex. banking, data management etc. Though since i'm very interested in things that they don't like or find morally objectionable (my family is rather religious) the amount of issues I run into would increase ten fold if I made this sort of hazardous material which says a lot. Also if I managed to get my hands on potassium permanganate I'd want to stash it in my survival kit for water treatment and fire starting:cool:. Also it would be a major flaw in common sense to work with high explosives in Central/North Jersey suburban home less than 2 hrs away from Mannhatan of all places thus why I use the jersey rebel as my psydonym/alias. What couldn't possibly go wrong! Please avoid this heptoxide stuff like the plague! I've never seen it in person but everything I've figured out online suggests that it's a dumb idea to make it. As NERV said, robotic arms are mandatory to work with this stuff. Unlike your arms, those can be disposed:P


You can get KMnO4 in some hardware stores as a water filter regenerator/cleaner.
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[*] posted on 1-3-2017 at 07:46


i would try to make some Manganese (III) Acetate
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