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Author: Subject: DDNP & related compounds: The über thread!
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[*] posted on 22-5-2015 at 18:58


Some stability testing of mixtures of DDNP and lead azide would be interesting. I really question how incompatible o-DDNP and lead azide really are. One thing was obvious from earlier testing, even relatively tiny amounts of lead azide used to initiate DDNP could make DDNP perform at least as well or better as a similar weight of lead azide. In fact when used to initiate picric acid I would say DDNP is more efficient than lead azide, when initiated by lead azide. :D



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[*] posted on 22-5-2015 at 19:12


Yes there would seem to be a composite similar to ASA which uses p-DDNP as the bulk component instead of lead styphnate as functions in ASA. With the stability improvement of p-DDNP, if the initiating power of the p-DDNP is comparable to the o-DDNP, then tandem charges or synergistic mixtures could similarly be very useful and should have no long term storage deficiency.

Using pharmaceutical grade acetaminophen neat and unmixed with any adulterants would eliminate the purification step that complicates a small scale synthesis so that on a commercial manufacturing scale p-DDNP would be very economical and simple to manufacture.

The international market price for paracetamol is very low since so much of it is made by so many manufacturers for a large market. So obviously the p-DDNP would be cheap to manufacture, maybe cheaper to manufacture than the o-DDNP that is more predominately used now. And if it proves to be as good as or better than the o-DDNP then what is up with that?

Is the p-DDNP something that has been overlooked?

I should patent p-DDNP for use as an explosive if nobody else will :D Somebody should make a buck or two on this, it only seems fair :D I could say I didn't really invent p-DDNP, but maybe I stayed at a Holiday Inn last night, so there.

[Edited on 23-5-2015 by Rosco Bodine]
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[*] posted on 23-5-2015 at 03:38


It is logical that DDNP produces carbon traces owing to its bad OB...just like many other nitroaromatics.

If p-DDNP is more thermally stable than o-DDNP, there is a chance it perfoms less good as an initiating explosive by heating...
For most explosives, there is an evident correlation between heat sensitivity and impact sensitivity.
It seems logical that between two primaries the more thermal sensitive one will D2D in lower quantities since the activation energy is less thus each decomposed molecule will generate energy that will trigger more molecules arround it; the propagation of the energy wave and acceleration of it will be higher.

But maybe that upon shock and in sufficient quantities/confinement the explosive power is higher or equal.

The best way to test those is to make sand crushing test and minimal quantity for initiation of TNT/TNP tests (also based on kind of sand crushing by the way).

[Edited on 23-5-2015 by PHILOU Zrealone]




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[*] posted on 23-5-2015 at 04:00


There is still another third isomer of DDNP that is less stable than o-DDNP. so it could be that o-DDNP occupies a middle ground sort of peculiar niche in terms of median chemical stability related to initiating ability as a kind of tradeoff, where it has the right combination of chemical and thermal instability that gives it a little better initiating power, but the liability inherent to that initiating ability is won at the cost of necessarily having a chemical stability that is not optimal.

Maybe o-DDNP became popular and accepted because the o-DDNP was the first diazo compound to be discovered, and though it was the first isomer to be known, it may not necessarily be the best of the several isomers later known.
The o-DDNP coincidentally could be the best of the known isomers, or it may not be the best, but is simply the isomer that was popularized by being first to be known.

What is the incremental difference in initiating ability for p-DDNP as compared with o-DDNP will tell the tale about what exactly is the reason why p-DDNP was evidently not adopted for use as an initiator. The literature found so far has not been helpful explaining what may be any deficiency about the p-DDNP.

Urbanski was certainly aware of the p-DDNP but gave no commentary to help understand why the p-DDNP would not be the better initiator.

It would seem we have a handloaders riddle to solve more than any conundrum.

It is a good mystery, what's up with p-DDNP ???? :P

Who comes up with this stuff ? Hehehe ........me. :D

Checking the market for paracetamol the stuff is very cheap.
The tableted form USP grade can be gotten for less than 20 dollars per kilogram including shipping.

If the p-DDNP is highly soluble in nitromethane, then it might make an interesting explosive fuel and sensitizer for soaking into NH4NO3 or NH4ClO4 as a binary composition guaranteed to have high energy.

So do you think such a binary composition would surpass kinepak or rack-a-rock? You betcha! By a mile!

p-DDNP might also form an interesting plastique with nitroglycerin, or a third component in a triple base with nitrocellulose. An extremely fast burning gunpowder useful for small caliber rimfire and pistol use could result where the powder charge approaches near to detonation.

I can be optimistic about p-DDNP being useful as an explosive fuel and sensitizer useful in high density, high velocity emulsion explosives which could be cap sensitive and permissible in mining applications. Given the cheap precursor substrate and simple manufacture, even if the performance of p-DDNP as an initiator by itself turns out to be deficient, there are certainly other applications where p-DDNP could function as a sensitive explosive fuel in mixture with oxidizing explosives.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGaOlfmX8rQ

<iframe sandbox width="640" height="480" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/qGaOlfmX8rQ?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Attachment: Diazo initiators from Urbanski 3.pdf (232kB)
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[Edited on 23-5-2015 by Rosco Bodine]
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[*] posted on 23-5-2015 at 06:03


Quote: Originally posted by PHILOU Zrealone  
It is logical that DDNP produces carbon traces owing to its bad OB...just like many other nitroaromatics.


That is true, but what I didn't remember was the carbon residue condensing and joining together forming those fairly large clumps. The more I think of it, this effect is not just peculiar to DDNP because I have seen the larger carbon clumps left on snow after a TNP or TNT detonation as well.

Quote: Originally posted by PHILOU Zrealone  

If p-DDNP is more thermally stable than o-DDNP, there is a chance it perfoms less good as an initiating explosive by heating...
For most explosives, there is an evident correlation between heat sensitivity and impact sensitivity.
It seems logical that between two primaries the more thermal sensitive one will D2D in lower quantities since the activation energy is less thus each decomposed molecule will generate energy that will trigger more molecules arround it; the propagation of the energy wave and acceleration of it will be higher.


Ironically, maybe, what was found by testing and in the literature references was that DDNP is extremely sensitive to flame but is relatively insensitive to impact and friction as compared to most other common primaries.


[Edited on 23-5-2015 by Hennig Brand]




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[*] posted on 23-5-2015 at 06:12


You were experimenting with "hot powder loads" for .22 rimfire and this p-DDNP could be useful in a triple base powder as a "really fast burning gunpowder". It would require some fine tuning of the powder formula and at a point would likely detonate if the p-DDNP component was too high a percentage of the triple base powder.
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[*] posted on 23-5-2015 at 06:30


Even I, who likes to take risks, am a little hesitant to try that in a propellant formulation. You are right though, maybe in small quantity as part of a triple base it could work. I don't think most people would think that using nitroglycerine in a gun was a good idea either, if they hadn't already heard of it being done, but in practise it works very well and in very high concentrations too.



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[*] posted on 23-5-2015 at 06:40


The smell of cordite is like perfume in the morning air, it almost gives me a hard on.
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[*] posted on 23-5-2015 at 06:42


I get pretty enthusiastic about such things too, but I don't know if I would go quite that far. :D:D:D



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[*] posted on 23-5-2015 at 06:47


The lady comes into the armory asking what is that sweet smell like bananas, and I say it is the Hoppes #9 bore solvent, but she should keep thinking about bananas, cause it's nature's perfect food, and she might be gettin' hungry. :D
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[*] posted on 23-5-2015 at 10:11


Ok, here the complete overview of how to produce iso-picramic acid (rough version): :)



Synthesis of 4-amino-2,6-dinitrophenol (iso-picramic acid) from acetaminophen


Notes: Look for the cheapest brand of Tylenol/Paracetamol tablets, containing the highest amount of acetaminophen (usually 500-1000 mg). Weigh 10 tablets or so to determine the percentage of fillers present and compare different brands for the lowest percentage. Additionally, this extraction procedure may not work equally well with every brand of tablets and would depend on the composition of the binders/fillers. If the nitration produces some sticky residues there are likely remaining impurities present from the tablets. Alternatively, pure acetaminophen is also available commercially, which would eliminate the extraction procedure.

Extraction of acetaminophen from Tylenol or Paracetamol tablets

Collect a number of tablets, translating to a combined weight of 25 grams of pure acetaminophen, (so weight of fillers not included) and grind as fine as possible using a coffee grinder. Transfer the powder to a 250 ml beaker and add 125 ml of denatured spirits. Heat the mix under reflux to the boiling point on a hotplate or boiling water bath and let it stir for about 5 minutes with gentle boil to extract the acetaminophen. Filter the solution hot into a 250-500 ml beaker, which will remove most of the fillers.

Next, put the beaker on a hotplate and put it on the highest temperature setting and let the solution boil while stirring. The ethanol fumes are very flammable and potentially explosive so do this outside! When the solution has evaporated to about half of its original volume, add 50 ml of water while keeping at boil. When nearly all of the ethanol is evaporated (takes about 15 minutes) the acetaminophen will precipitate over the course of 10-15 minutes as a course sand like precipitate. Take the solution from the hotplate and leave it to cool to room temperature. Add another 50 ml of cold water and filter the suspension. Wash 3-4 times with cold water and filter to collect the acetaminophen. The filtrate will have a slight yellow tint and appears milky, this is normal. Let the acetaminophen dry at room temperature for 24 hours, to obtain pure crystalline acetaminophen as a free flowing powder. (21-22 grams)

Nitration to dinitro acetaminophenol

Prepare a large cooling bath containing crushed ice and water, containing at least 500 grams of crushed ice. Put a 100 ml beaker on a scale and poor in 73.5 grams (40 ml) of 96-98% sulfuric acid. Transfer to the ice bath and let it cool to 0-10 deg. C. Then add 24 grams of dry ammonium nitrate in small portions, keeping the temperature below 20 deg C. Swirl or stir for about 5 minutes to dissolve all the ammonium nitrate and keep on ice.

To a separate 500 ml beaker, add 128.5 grams (70 ml) of sulfuric acid and also transfer to the ice bath, let it cool to 0 deg. C. Add a stirrer bar and thermometer, and put the ice bath on a stirrer plate, set at 125-250 rpm. Weigh out 20 grams of the acetaminophen and add small portions to the sulfuric acid, while keeping temperature below 10 deg C. Let it stir for an additional 10 minutes after the last addition. (Not all of the acetaminophen will dissolve, but during the course of the nitration, the remaining lumps will dissolve eventually.)

After the acetaminophen/SA solution has reached 5 deg C, slowly start adding the ammonium nitrate/SA solution. It is best to keep the temperature between 5 and 10 deg C during the additions. The nitration responds very rapidly upon the additions, about 2-3 ml with each addition is about the maximum that can be added for the first additions, resulting in a jump from 5 to 10 deg C. Above 15 deg C, foaming starts to become evident, probably due to decomposition of the acetaminophen.

Depending on the efficiency of the cooling bath, the total addition will take about 30 minutes. Halfway the nitration, the solution will attain a dark brown color with each addition, which will fade to a more orange color again after some time. After the final addition is made, let the solution stir for another 1-2 hours while keeping on ice. Finally, ad 250 grams of finely crushed ice to the nitration mix. Some foaming will occur, let the solution stir for another 20 minutes while in the ice bath until the foam has mostly dissipated. The dinitro acetaminophenol will settle as an orange precipitate to the bottom of the beaker, is filtered and washed with ice cold water from the ice bath. Wear gloves while handling it, as it is a very strong dye! Under acidic conditions it gives a bright orange/grapefruit like color, while a deep red/violet is obtained when adding a base.

Note: Yield can be increased by neutralizing the filtrate with concentrated ammonia solution and leaving overnight in the fridge precipitating the residual dinitro acetminophenol as the ammonium salt.

Deacetylation to iso-picramic acid

After filtering, the dinitro acetaminophenol can be directly transferred to a 500 ml beaker. Set stirring to a low setting of about 100 rpm and add 50 ml water + 50 ml of concentrated sulfuric acid. (25 ml's of water and sulfuric acid might suffice) Set the hotplate to 150 deg C and heat to 120-125 deg C. for about 45 minutes. The solution will gradually go from orange to a deep red over time and the initial suspension will form a solution of the soluble iso-picramic acid sulfate. Continue heating until no more smell of acetic acid can be noticed. Take the beaker from the hot plate and allow to cool down. Add 100 ml water, filter, and transfer the filtrate into a 1000 ml beaker, and put it on the stirrer again. Set stirring to 500 rpm, and add small portions of household ammonia over the course of 15-30 minutes, until the solution is just slightly acidic. When too much ammonia is added the solution will turn a very deep red color and a little acid can be added to return a slightly acid pH. The iso-picramic acid will separate as 18-21 grams of a brick red glistening crystalline precipitate that filters very easily from gravity alone.

[Edited on 24-5-2015 by nitro-genes]
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[*] posted on 23-5-2015 at 11:27


Very nice, thank you. It looks to be at least a little more of a complicated and labor intensive process than for o-DDNP, but then maybe it is just because I am unfamiliar with it. Then again, if counting the TNP synthesis, this method seems pretty straight forward and quick I guess.




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[*] posted on 23-5-2015 at 11:31


It is a little more complicated due to the very low temperatures needed during the nitration and the need to get really pure acetaminophen. From there however, the whole procedure can actually be done in a few hours, waiting steps not included. :)

[Edited on 24-5-2015 by nitro-genes]
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[*] posted on 23-5-2015 at 11:43


The pure acetaminophen is cheaply available commercially without any binders added for tableting. Obtaining the already pure precursor simplifies things for larger scale synthesis and this would definitely be easier than the o-DDNP to produce.

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[*] posted on 23-5-2015 at 11:49


It may be available in its pure form from drugstores, but where is the fun in getting something from the supermarket and turn it into a word class primary? :D

[Edited on 23-5-2015 by nitro-genes]
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[*] posted on 23-5-2015 at 12:11


If p-DDNP turns out to be a good initiator then it is worth the trouble extracting the tablets. On these kind of manipulations it is not much more work really to greatly increase the scale. A thousand half gram tablets is five bucks and change. So even doing the extra step of squeezing the juice out of one pint sized bottle of 1000 tablets isn't a big deal and provides plenty of raw material for experiments with p-DDNP for detonators.

However for larger scale synthesis where the p-DDNP might be destined for use in larger charges, you would want to get the bulk raw material as crystals and avoid the extra time and expense of separating out the inert materials.
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[*] posted on 23-5-2015 at 13:49


True, it really is an efficient and easy to scale up procedure, although the volume of the ice bath would also need to be really large. I've done the synthesis as outlined above multiple times to be sure it works, but the results are pretty much the same every time. :)

I'll try the diazotization protocol as outlined in Urbanski that you posted, which is very similar to the Chinese paper posted earlie, to increase density of the product. Also looking forward to making the tetrazeno derivatives again, though my hopes are not to high. :)

the ability of the diazogroup to couple with amines is interesting, any ideas for more energetic amino derivatives?

[Edited on 23-5-2015 by nitro-genes]
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[*] posted on 23-5-2015 at 15:24


There exist many other diazo compounds, but the problem is that they tend to be unstable to an unreasonable extent. There is sort of a fortunate exception for the o-DDNP and p-DDNP which have the right symmetry and balance to have acceptable stability sufficiently good for practical use.

Because there is so little good information in the literature about p-DDNP it should definitely IMO be flagged EXPERIMENTAL.

A great deal is known about the o-DDNP isomer, but there is very little, virtually nothing published, at least nothing extensive published I have found, about the p-DDNP isomer. It has received what is only brief mention and description so far as has been found. The thermal stability test data comparing p-DDNP and o-DDNP is the most extensive test data found. So p-DDNP does appear to be an academic curiosity which has remained in obscurity, not receiving good scrutiny for possible development.


[Edited on 24-5-2015 by Rosco Bodine]
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[*] posted on 24-5-2015 at 05:47


For you biochemist over here, one of these makes a really good adjustable dropper. Make the smallest hole possible in the conical bottom using a hot needle, adjust by screwing the endcap on less or more tight. :) Dripping rates can be determined and marked on the tube.



tube_sterile_centrifuger_recolte_semence.jpg - 14kB

[Edited on 24-5-2015 by nitro-genes]
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[*] posted on 24-5-2015 at 06:25


An idea for a possible variation on the diazotization of the isopicramic acid has occurred to me which might lead to a higher density more coarsely crystalline p-DDNP product.

The isopicramic acid sulfate is soluble but the free isopicramic acid is only very slightly soluble. My idea is to attempt to diazotize the soluble isopicramic acid sulfate in a very diluted solution like a 2% solution of the isopicramic acid sulfate using a likewise dilute 3% solution of NaNO2 and conduct the diazotization at a slightly warm temperature about 35C to see if a better crystal development and higher density precipitate of the p-DDNP occurs.

In preparation for this approach it would be necessary to not neutralize the deacetylation mixture to the point of disruption of the soluble isopicramic acid sulfate and corresponding not conveniently reversible precipitation of free isopicramic acid. Whatever excess of H2SO4 in the deacetylation mixture that is not bound as the soluble sulfate of the isopicramic acid may have to be simply left not neutralized, the excess acidity may do no harm in the greatly diluted solution which will be diazotized. I am not certain if attempts to neutralize the excess H2SO4 which is not bound as soluble sulfate of the isopicramic acid could be done without the "local reaction" in the region where the mixing is occurring when adding any base, would not be disruptive of the soluble sulfate of the isopicramic acid causing free isopicramic acid to precipitate and defeating the purpose of an intended partial neutralization which would be wanted to selectively neutralize only the excess H2SO4 not already bound to the isopicramic acid in the form of the soluble sulfate which is wanted to be left intact and remaining soluble. How selective would be the attempt at any partial neutralization so that it would work as desired is unknown.

It should cause no harm for there to be an excess of acid in the diluted reaction mixture to be subjected to diazotization, within the low concentration and diluted reaction mixtures contemplated. At the concentrations contemplated even a molar excess on the order of ten times the amount of theory for the acids and eleven times the amount of theory for the sodium nitrite should not result in any decomposition. It is not likely possible to "over diazotize" the isopicramic acid, since the diazotization product which is the p-DDNP has such incredibly low solubility and tends to rapidly precipitate as soon as it is formed.

Strategies for allowing a slower precipitation and providing a reaction system where all of the isopicramic acid is doubly certain to be diazotized by having an abundant excess of the diazotizing agent, the sodium nitrite, should result in yields for the p-DDNP that are virtually quantitative.

A strategy for recrystallization of the p-DDNP that may work would be to dissolve the p-DDNP in warm acetone and gradually add toluene to induce crystallization "seeding" and then allow evaporation of the more volatile acetone perhaps while continuing to gradually add more toluene to encourage crystal growth. Faster evaporation of the more volatile acetone would cause the solution to be gradually richer in toluene as evaporation proceeds until nearly all of the p-DDNP has crystallized out with a little toluene still remaining, probably 98% of the p-DDNP should have crystallized from the solvent.

[Edited on 24-5-2015 by Rosco Bodine]
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[*] posted on 24-5-2015 at 09:34


The idea of using the soluble sulfate salt occured also to me, I'm experimenting with this at the moment. Also tried the diazotization procedure as listed in Urbanski, but the higher temperatures utilized are not suitable for the production of p-DDNP. Up until now I had used the procedure from COPAE at 0 deg C, however, diazotization at higher temperatures produces a dark brown soluble filtrate and bad quality p-DDNP. Likely, iso-picramic acid is much more susceptible to oxidation by HNO2 than o-picramic acid. :)
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[*] posted on 24-5-2015 at 10:31


Another strategy that could work is to change the order and manner of addition for the diazotization. The diluted deacetylation mixture containing the isopicramic acid sulfate could be added in the cold as one of two concurrent streams being the reactants simultaneously added to a stirred beaker of plain H2O as the initial receiver for the reactants which should readily react in the quickly increasing concentration.

The initial receiving H2O might be 300ml in the bottom of a 4 liter beaker, which will receive for example two 1.5 liter streams which gradually add at equal rates to result in 3300 ml of completed reaction mixture.

The second addition stream would contain a mixed solution of NaNO2 and NaOH in proportional amounts that would create the same final reaction mixture desired as if the reactants had been mixed in the simpler conventional way. It is called a steady state reaction scheme, where the ratio of reactants is maintained relatively constant through the entire addition. The dilutions could be designed to provide a desired concentration for each stream having equal total volumes for each addition stream to be combined so that equal drip rates for the two streams of reactants would maintain a steady state reaction mixture for the diazotization process. Using such a steady state reaction scheme could accomplish the diazotization while exploiting the solubility of the sulfate of the isopicramic acid, while keeping the diazotization reaction mixture slightly acid but not too strongly acid.

This type of reaction scheme favors production of uniform sized crystals since the composition of the mixture from which the crystals form is kept constant over the course of the reaction.
It is a general method applicable to many different reactions and is exploited industrially where it is called "continuous process" because so long as the streams of reactants are maintained and replenished, and the end product removed and the effluent carried away, the process can be operated as a continuous reaction.

The scheme can be applied also to a limited run "batch".
If you have metering pumps it is possible to make rate adjustments and dial in the changes that can fine tune a process to a point it is optimized. But the same process concept can be done manually with two addition funnels having adjustment matched drip rates running into a beaker or flask. What works for a few liters reaction mixture, can scale up easily, so the lab scale experiment can be a scale model for the larger plant scale.

[Edited on 24-5-2015 by Rosco Bodine]
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[*] posted on 24-5-2015 at 13:43


Another thing convenient for larger batches, where the exotherm takes longer to calm down during nitration of the acetaminophen, is to freeze the nitration vessel containing the SA into a solid block of ice at -20. Almost as efficient as a salted ice bath. :)

Also, a first experiment was performed using diazotization using SA to produce the soluble picramic sulfate first. Never seen any references concerning SA mediated synthesis and crystallization of DDNP. Have this kind of studies ever been performed by your knowledge?

Anyway, 3 grams of iso-picramic acid were added to 40 ml of water, this was heated to 90 deg. C and conc. SA was added drop wise until all the picramic acid had gone into solution. Hard to estimate, though I think it needed about 3 ml in total to do so. Then at 0 deg C., a solution of 1.1 grams of sodium nitrite in 20 ml water was added drop wise over 30 minutes.

The p-DDNP produce this way is reasonably free flowing, higher density and is an more deep orange/brown in colour than the COPEA method. It flashes equally well compoared to earlier btaches, similar carbon deposits and no signs of degradation. It does cake somewhat and a look under the binoc suggests agglomerates of more tiny crystals, but to small to really see (only 4x mag). I think the Urbanski method at 0 deg C. may produce better results.
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[*] posted on 24-5-2015 at 14:49


Good to hear that it does work to diazotize the soluble sulfate.
This could possibly shortcut the process or lead to an improved form directly from the diazotization.

Also good to know is that conversion of the free isopicramic acid back to the soluble sulfate is done with ease.

The isopicramic acid may possibly dissolve likewise in other acids than H2SO4 by forming soluble salts of different acids, and those acid salts similarly may be able to be diazotized with the isopicramic acid salt in soluble form.

There is probably an optimum dilution and pH and temperature for getting the best crystals. Acetic acid added to the isopicramic acid sulfate solution before diazotizing could increase solubility and improve crystal growth for the p-DDNP. These methods may also be applicable for the o-DDNP.

Some diazotizations are performed by dissolving low solubility compounds like nitroanilines in sulfuric acid by forming the soluble sulfate and then diazotizing. In some cases where the water content and temperature is low there is formation of nitrosylsulfuric acid which accomplishes the diazotization.

I think Microtek has described a couple of these type diazotizations for nitroanilines.

IIRC m-dinitrobenzene diazonium perchlorate is made by that method.

Isopicramic acid and picramic acid are cousins to dinitroanilines having added a hydroxyl, so it is not surprising that a similar scheme for diazotizing could work.

[Edited on 25-5-2015 by Rosco Bodine]
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[*] posted on 25-5-2015 at 07:11


Quote: Originally posted by nitro-genes  

Also, a first experiment was performed using diazotization using SA to produce the soluble picramic sulfate first. Never seen any references concerning SA mediated synthesis and crystallization of DDNP. Have this kind of studies ever been performed by your knowledge?


No, to my knowledge anyway, (if that is any measure) :P we are doing something possibly "new and improved" so far as anything publicly shared about the synthetic details for p-DDNP as being done here. The broadly general and basic concept for p-DDNP has been published a hundred years ago, and further experiments suggested by reading between the lines in some of the published journal articles and patents. But I don't believe this particular methodology as a step by step process has been ever before described explicitly or published in extensive detail for o-DDNP and certainly not described for p-DDNP.

I think we are probably breaking new ground here so far as publishing anything that would turn up any Google search hits regarding p-DDNP, so it may be entirely novel what experiments you are doing. Actually it is difficult to find any references at all regarding p-DDNP much less to find detailed information. It is likely information that doesn't exist in any published form to be found. So this is an area of obscure research that has possibly been overlooked by the mainstream science of academia, now receiving long overdue attention by "fringe" science or "mad science". Geniuses are us.

Did formal research long ago recognize and study the potential value of p-DDNP as an easily and cheaply made green energetic material, but then just failed to publish the findings?

I think we missed it. :o

Well once again, it seems sometimes if you want something done right ......you just got to do it yourself. :P

Not meaning to count unhatched chickens, but p-DDNP could be like a lucky lottery ticket.


[Edited on 25-5-2015 by Rosco Bodine]
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