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Author: Subject: The best country to pursue amateur chemistry in.
S.C. Wack
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[*] posted on 12-9-2005 at 21:41


Quote:
Originally posted by bio2
the sentencing guidlines posted only apply to someone already convicted of a drug offense (manufacture).


Where does it say that? What it does say:

21 U.S.C. §§ 841(c): Offenses involving listed chemicals

Any person who knowingly or intentionally --

(1) possesses a listed chemical with intent to manufacture a controlled substance except as authorized by this subchapter;

(2) possesses or distributes a listed chemical knowing, or having reasonable cause to believe, that the listed chemical will be used to manufacture a controlled substance except as authorized by this title; ...
shall be fined in accordance with Title 18, or imprisoned not more than 20 years in the case of a violation of paragraph (1) or (2) involving a list I chemical or not more than 10 years in the case of a violation of this subsection other than a violation of paragraph (1) or (2) involving a list I chemical, or both.

-------
...5. Convictions under 21 U.S.C. §§ 841(c)(2)...do not require that the defendant have knowledge or an actual belief that the listed chemical was to be used to manufacture a controlled substance unlawfully. In a case in which the defendant possessed or distributed the listed chemical without such knowledge or belief, a 3-level reduction is provided to reflect that the defendant is less culpable than one who possessed or distributed listed chemicals knowing or believing that they would be used to manufacture a controlled substance unlawfully.
---------

As I said in the other thread, by possession of RP, as far as LE is concerned, you are guilty of intent unless you can prove that you had no intent to manufacture. Good luck with that.

In my adult life, I've always thought that the US was a bad place to do chemistry. It can only get worse.
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[*] posted on 14-9-2005 at 19:10


First off, I'm from the USA and I would say that somewhere in Europe may be better for chemistry, but not as good for pyrotechnics. This being said, I am interested in both. And I can nearly get the best of both worlds, as far as actual location.

I live near Canada in a very low population dense region. It's quite wonderful for the more 'dubious' synthesis that require hazardous steps and the products should be isolated. This is also good for pyro for obvious reasons, yet I live in USA so I have access to 'American' chems without import problems.

The only real vice I can think of as per location is an extreme meth craze. It's worse than the cities and basically the worst in the whole country IIRC. Not very good, where chemist is synonamous with meth cook. :mad:




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[*] posted on 15-12-2005 at 10:30
Comes down to money


If you have the money, anywhere and everywhere is a good place to do chemistry. Chemicals are cheap and plentiful if you know how to place yourself in a legitimate niche, be it academic or industrial.

I would say, for economic reasons, the USA is the best.




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[*] posted on 16-12-2005 at 06:44


Quote:

As I said in the other thread, by possession of RP, as far as LE is concerned, you are guilty of intent unless you can prove that you had no intent to manufacture. Good luck with that.


Forgive me, but isn't the burden of proof (that you did have intent) on the DA?




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S.C. Wack
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[*] posted on 16-12-2005 at 15:50


Truth and idealism are quickly lost by anyone who has been exposed to the system here, and I've been in it.

Prosecutors are interested in convictions. A judge or jury is likely to find your explanation that you are just a "hobby chemist" an excuse like all the other excuses that they've disregarded in the past.

The police will not hesitate to arrest you if they see chemicals and equipment that they see in "meth labs" all the time, and no one in the system will give a shit about you or your protestations at that point. Really. And you cannot make them give a shit. No ephedrine, no meth residue, well only because we caught you before you could get that far. "Meth lab" convictions are very common here. Finding a "lab" or even ten in a month in a city of 10,000 no longer makes the news. Nor do the convictions, even though they involve sentences of 30 years, your children are taken away before any trial, possessions forfeited, etc. This is all quite routine and you are faceless.

This may be simplistic and there are exceptions, but I wouldn't count on anyone going to bat for you if you come to the attention of LE.
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[*] posted on 16-12-2005 at 16:56


S. C. Wack you are confirming my worst nightmare. If you don't mind answering, were (are) you in LE? Or how did you observe these nefarious actions by LE.

Perhaps all who are US citizens should torch their labs, keeping only our libraries. :( And while there is still time, I should hire a lawyer and have him set up a large escrow account as a legal defense fund. :mad:




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[*] posted on 16-12-2005 at 17:40


By "in the system" I meant on the other side. But both sides lose their idealism soon. A fresh young caseworker was assigned to me once, and a couple of years later she and my case helped get the judge permanently removed from the bench by the supreme court, an almost unprecedented action. The judge really pissed her off, so she went to an extreme. Others are more jaded and don't even try, much like in politics. My father has been a deputy sheriff for 25 years.

Nefarious might not be the best word, everyone on that side thinks that they are doing the best for society. It isn't a slam-dunk everywhere, at least not without ephedrine/"directions"/"knowledge"."Intent" is just so vague, and many states have their own definitions. In some states, I2, RP, and a copy of the Rhodium archive may be enough. In some, RP and I2 are already illegal by statute. Coffee filters, solvents, glassware, help - (pseudo)ephedrine, obviously - but what I am saying is that many of us already have enough things on hand, with the addition of something notorious such as RP/I2/HI/NH3, to be seen as intending to manufacture. One can have an extensive chemistry setup/knowledge/chemicals obviously unrelated to meth, yet still manufacture it. I happen to live in a "meth lab" area.
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[*] posted on 17-12-2005 at 04:53


Quote:
Originally posted by S.C. Wack
any news on the proposed Canadian RP legislation?


I don't know if this has been talked about in Whimsy as I've no intention of ever reading it, I noticed that no one else was talking about it out here. Canada now (well, next month) has US style "precursor" laws. Say goodbye to RP, comrades!

http://canadagazette.gc.ca/partII/2005/20051214/html/sor364-...
http://canadagazette.gc.ca/partII/2005/20051214/html/sor365-...




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[*] posted on 17-12-2005 at 07:40


This is really starting to piss me off. As a scientist you are welcome to serve your society by doing research, but ofcourse this must be done under the following conditions:

- Your research must be politically correct and should not conflict with the statements of the powers that be. If it does, you've obviously made an error and are guilty of malpractice.
- You must accept the fact that the society you serve will regard you as a psycho monster, because you know how to kill people and how to make drugs. You are a potential threat to THE CHILDREN.
- You are welcome to design super weapons for the government, just don't make any firecrackers at home, because that's obviously terrorism.
- Greenpeace, religious fucknuts, quackery and anybody who can scream harder than you are always right. Should you be right, the previous rule automatically comes into effect.




One shouldn't accept or resort to the mutilation of science to appease the mentally impaired.
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[*] posted on 17-12-2005 at 13:20


Aarg...my Canada is beginning to go the way of the states:mad:. Not that I really have any use for red or white P, but I was thinking of getting some white P, simply for its spontaneous flamability.
My area is in a rather bad area for meth labs, so I am not really sure what I am going to do, quitting experimentation is NOT an option. I think that letting people I know that I do experimentation at home is a good thing, showing that I have nothing to hide. Ive been doing this recently and I have actually found out of a couple other people who experiments at home as well, which I found rather interesting. From what I know so far they are not as serious about it as me.

Anyway for all you Canadains out there, vote libertarian this upcoming election. (check out their website)




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[*] posted on 17-12-2005 at 14:14


I think the push is to only allow science to be done in a government/university/corporate setting. Anyone doing their own private research must obviously be some kind of criminal. The only cure for this is to surround your house with a 20 foot wall, and paint company logos all over the place?
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[*] posted on 17-12-2005 at 14:41


Rogue I agree with you that closing down my lab is not an option. I have dreamed of having my own lab for decades but put it off until retirement because of family obligations. It just puts a lot of stress on me knowing the risk that I am taking for a false arrest.

It seems that every time I read about LE busting meth labs they say that "this area is particularly bad" or, "one of the worst in the country." So I conclude it is bad everywhere in the US, especially in the smaller communities and rural areas. I know that meth use is not going to go away as 65% of the meth comes in from superlabs located in foreign countries. But if they can stop the Mom & Pops then this should considerably reduce the risk for the home chemist. But this will likely take some time, if indeed it ever happens.




The single most important condition for a successful synthesis is good mixing - Nicodem
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[*] posted on 17-12-2005 at 14:50


The war on drugs mill produces lots of petty criminals for incarceration, which funds the prison industry with your tax money, which buys your president (amongst others).

Your president then yanks the chain to get more severe prosecution and consequently the prison industry gets more money, more lobbyists and more political influence.

Same goes for the oil industry, but then related to Vietraq and Afghanistan.

There are more examples, but you can figure this out yourself.
Just look at the number of incarcerated people in texas and how many people make a living out of this.




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[*] posted on 18-12-2005 at 01:07


After giving all this much thought and remembering what Chris Rock had to say about being stopped by the police, it occured to me, what should we do if stopped on the way back from procuring chemicals? I think his ideas may apply as to how we should act during a stop. So in order to provide help in our endeavors it seemed proper to share this instruction in this 4 mb video:

http://207.228.241.74/stuff/AssKicked.wmv

[Edited on 18-12-2005 by IrC]
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[*] posted on 18-12-2005 at 15:58


That is a funny video with good advice. However, staying within the law will soon reduce the US citizen home chemist to "kitchen chemistry" where all that will be tolerated is taking pH readings, making vinegar/sodium bicarb volcanoes, and watching the weird things that happen when you put flowers and rubber balls into liquid nitrogen. :(



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[*] posted on 18-12-2005 at 17:07


Well, I believe we are within the law for most amateur chemistry(unless you are into explosives or drugs), but I do not have much faith in LE to realize this. They see you distilling something, they are going to assume methcook instantly. I believe redemption would only come in the courts, so the best thing is to not act shifty, don't try to make up excuses for what you are doing. Don't say the gallon of lab grade sulfuric acid is for drains, say it is for creating sulfate salts and dissolving metals. Harmless nerd/madscientist is always the best.

Now a hypothetical, lets say LE was to come to your house with reports of you using glassware outside and people smelling funky smells. Would it be best to ask them to see a warrant?(not likely to have one, but asking to see one would be considered suspicious) Or would it be best to let them in without question, and tell them what you were doing? On one hand, the sight of a lab would make them suspicious, but your willingness to tell them about it would make it seem that you had nothing to hide. But then again they could think you were so willing to tell them, because you are doing something wrong and are trying to appear innocent.
Thoughts?




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[*] posted on 18-12-2005 at 18:30


Knock and talks are not uncommon and allowing LE in may or may not be recommendable. If you turn them away and they come back with a warrant, expect retaliation in some form. This all depends on your situation. There are so many variables. Around here, I recall 2 complaints by landlords quickly turning into EPA Events that cost them many tens of thousands of dollars.
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[*] posted on 18-12-2005 at 19:12


EPA events? What exactly happened here?
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[*] posted on 18-12-2005 at 19:43


If you let them in without a warrant they are still going to look around and nail you for whatever they can, unrelated or not. Usually the odds are something unrelated is where they do go after you. It may piss them off but at least you have a better chance in court if you make them get one. It matters not that not letting them will piss them off, either way you lose but by giving them permission to look around you have shafted yourself legally. I keep a complete list of my chems as it helps in knowing what I need. I do not know if I am right in this but I have always thought at least if you show the court you spent 20 grand on other chems and supplies VS the 20 dollars worth of chemicals they are trying to base any case on, somehow you would look better to the court. I mean, what cooker spends 20 bucks on what he needs to cook with and then buys thousands of dollars worth of unrelated chems that could not be used to make something illegal (at least related to their case about drugs, I am sure we all have stuff that could blow things up when mixed right)?

The point here is that in my mind this gives me a better chance of proving to the court that I really am into legitimate research rather than just being an illegal meth cook. Like I say I may be totally full of it in this thought but to me it seems logical. So, does having a list of chems which shows you are not just storing and/or using precursors alone give any better chance at winning your case? Hopefully I will never have to find this one out. Likewise a lab notebook showing the experiments you are or have been doing I think would also aid in showing that you are into legitimate science. Am I right?

What really pisses me off is the fact that I even have to apply thought to this entire subject. I think they should wage their war but also just leave us real mad scientists the fuck alone! Now I have myself thinking about that Walmart scenario a few months ago. I think I will make some Earl Grey and mellow out for a while.
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[*] posted on 18-12-2005 at 20:08


I can't say for sure, I just remember that it was chemistry-related rather than (everyday ho-hum) meth-lab related. There was video on the news. I just wanted to make the point that chem hysteria can be applied, if not drug hysteria.

I'm not sure what exactly what it is to be cleaned up in meth lab clean up, except that it costs $10-30K. I don't mean the initial removal of chemicals, I mean residue of some sort. Of course I have my doubts as to whether this is necessary.

By making post after post, I worry about going overboard on the warnings. Appearances, criminal record, community standing, etc. is almost everything. I just wanted to make the point that one can get painted by LE in an unsavory, undeserved way. This can be very serious.

Ask the local fire marshal what he thinks about your doing chemistry at home.
(he is powerful as friend or foe)

[Edited on 19-12-2005 by S.C. Wack]
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[*] posted on 19-12-2005 at 02:07


I would propose some non-western country w.o many prohibitive laws, perhaps Brazil? Sam Barros doesn't seem to have had a hard time getting chems when he lived there. Provided one has a steady income (or wealthy parents) comparable to western standard that oughtta be paradise.

Imagine ordering HClO4 without much hazzle....

Seems like laws are quite different even in different places in the western world, like us Swedes being able to buy pyridine, THF, red P, iodine and acetyl chloride but not sulfuric acid, not to mention lead compunds, even insolubles like red lead being outlawed...




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[*] posted on 23-12-2005 at 12:07


Quote:
Originally posted by IrC
What really pisses me off is the fact that I even have to apply thought to this entire subject. I think they should wage their war but also just leave us real mad scientists the fuck alone!


LOL! Why do you think having a home lab is such a dangerous hobby anyway? Because most "home labs" you hear about are meth labs. Well tough! You can't have it both ways. If you support the war you're going to have to live with the paranoia and the very realistic risk that comes with having a home lab in the climate.

To look at it from a slightly different perspective however, pseudoephedrine is closer to meth chemically than P2P (deoxygenation ~v~ reductive amination), pseudoephedrine makes a more powerful form of meth than P2P (pure dextro ~v~ racemate), but P2P is a class II scheduled drug and you can buy pseudoephedrine anywhere.
Now pseudoephedrine is the number one precursor for meth and P2P is a distant memory.

So?

Well...

Quote:
Originally posted by rogue chemist
Aarg...my Canada is beginning to go the way of the states:mad:. Not that I really have any use for red or white P


Funny..I feel exactly the same way about pseudoephedrine.

Now..where the fuck did I put the raid? :)
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[*] posted on 23-12-2005 at 16:19


"LOL! Why do you think having a home lab is such a dangerous hobby anyway? Because most "home labs" you hear about are meth labs. Well tough! You can't have it both ways. If you support the war you're going to have to live with the paranoia and the very realistic risk that comes with having a home lab in the climate."

This is a complete crock of shit. In fact it the biggest crock of shit I have ever read on SCM!

Lab stands for laboratory. This is where science is done, science is learned, new ideas are brought into reality. A meth cooking outfit is not a lab, never has been and never will be. I dont fucking believe you just said what you did if you are indeed a legitimate member of SCM and a TRUE scientist, amateur or not. The totally full of it comparison which you just made is precisely why we have the problems we do. There is no need in a meth cookers setup for a wealth of science books, lab notebooks and a wide variety of chemicals. All they need is one crappy recipe for death and the few chemicals and materials needed to make their satans brew. Any real scientist would have known this and never stated the words you just did. All you are doing is repeating the media, police, and public mindshit that goes on ad nauseum while they strip away our rights to do science.

Can't have it both ways? The post you just made isn't one a real chemist would have made. I do not need a pile of cold medicine to do what I do but not being able to have phosphorus is keeping me from experimenting with new and novel semiconductor materials in the form of gallium, indium, and germanium phosphides to name just a few, and is blocking some energy research I wish to do along the lines of more efficient solar cells. The assholes peddling death are destroying my ability to conduct science as a lone wolf researcher all in the name of money and nothing more. Hell is where they came from and hell is where they will end up.

Now I know why I would not ever go to any meetings if SCM ever arranged one. I would get arrested for double bitch slapping anyone I met who came at me with the line of reasoning you just did. All you are doing is towing the paranoid media/police line.

[Edited on 24-12-2005 by IrC]
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[*] posted on 27-12-2005 at 14:28


Quote:
I dont fucking believe you just said what you did if you are indeed a legitimate member of SCM and a TRUE scientist...Any real scientist would have known this and never stated the words you just did...All you are doing is repeating the media, police, and public mindshit that goes on ad nauseum...The post you just made isn't one a real chemist would have made...


What the hell is this personal attack all about?? That's 4 or 5 times you've personally attacked me without a single counter-argument. There is a name for what you're doing of course. It's called an ad hominem argument. Here, I'll give you a paragraph or 2 from the wikipedia definition:

---
"An ad hominem argument, also known as argumentum ad hominem (Latin, literally "argument to the man") or attacking the messenger, is a logical fallacy that involves replying to an argument or assertion by attacking the person presenting the argument or assertion rather than the argument itself....An ad hominem fallacy consists of asserting that someone's argument is wrong and/or they are wrong to argue at all purely because of something discreditable/not-authoritative about the person or those persons cited by them rather than addressing the soundness of the argument itself."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem
---


Quote:
Hell is where they came from and hell is where they will end up.


Hmm yes...I suppose you could say thank God for Science with a straight face too?
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[*] posted on 27-12-2005 at 18:37


In canada: as far as I am aware it is not illegal to produce/test low explosive material as long as the material is not confinded in a way that it creates an explosion. If a device if created that is made to explode it then comes under the explosives act--- and you can be charged with building a prohibited device.

Burning blackpowder- smokeless- flash-based powders is not illegal on private property. It is illegal to make explosives out of them--- without a licence.
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