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Author: Subject: Found.. White P
Octal40
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Found.. White P

http://www.1-800homeopathy.com/index/single.html?item=PHOS

I was on a hunt for Potassium Phoshate and possibly found White Phosphorus. I don't need it so this is just reference for you phosphorus chem fiends.

Whattya guys think?

Oh, I need more time to come up with a sig.
chloric1
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Yeh

The use of Mercury metal and potassium dichromate internally? I'll pass on homeopathy.

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epck
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With the way homeopathy works I doubt there is single atom of phosphorus in any of those things. Remember, when you dilute something down it makes the essence (or whatever) stronger!

Homeopathy quackwatch.
Illegal Parkinson
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Blind Angel
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There is a journalist here in the trend of Jay Leno and "This hours has 22 minutes" that is actually a Biochemist (Jean-René Dufort for those who know him). He asked homeopath what would happen if he was to eat a ceral bowl full of homeopathic pills, they answered mostly that he would be sick, maybe even dead. He made the deal that if he does it, and don't die, hemeopath will need to apologize publicly. He's still waiting for those apology

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Fleaker
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That would be the most expensive source for phosphorus ever suggested. Even buying the 6X concentration, there would barely be enough to see if it could be concentrated.
Rabidwolf
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is anyone else wondering the safety of eating something that combusts in the presence of oxygen?
i bet ya gotta keep the pills under water or oil
neutrino
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My guess would be that oxidation already occurred during production and the ‘white phosphorus’ they’re selling is in fact just ordinary P<sub>2</sub>O<sub>5</sub>.
garage chemist
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If the pills don't glow in the dark, they contain no white phosphorus.

White phosphorus dissolved in ethanol (solubility is low, but enough to be noticeable) the solution glows in the dark even when less than 1 ppm P4 is present.

It's a shame that red phosphorus is regulated in america... total nonsense, Meth can be produced by a variety of different procedures, most of them not needing red P. Banning red P doesn't do shit against Meth production.

Come to Germany and buy some red P!
I wish that every hobby chemist in the world is able to get red phosphorus.
If there were a means of safely getting it over the border then I'd probably already started international trading with red P.
mick
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The most expensive source of phosphorus is probably DNA.
mick
neutrino
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That contains phosphates. These pills are supposed to contain the element itself.
unionised
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"The most expensive source of phosphorus is probably DNA.
mick"
I doubt that, just for a start there's lots in my garden - not to mention me.

Since those pills contain practically no phosphorus they are a very expensive source.
Homeopathy is ludicrous- some of their preparations are so dilute as to only contain a few atoms of "active" material in volumes the size of the earth.
They also hold the strange belief that the more you dilute something the stronger it gets hence the joke about the homeopath who forgot to take his pills and died of an overdose.
Given that there's not really any phosphorus there, the oxidaton state is a bit academic.

[Edited on 20-11-2005 by unionised]
mick
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I would have thought that to extract the phosphorus from DNA would be harder than extracting phosphorus from the garden. Thinking about it I think it is the same.
mick

[Edited on 20-11-2005 by mick]
YT2095
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 Quote: Originally posted by garage chemist White phosphorus dissolved in ethanol (solubility is low, but enough to be noticeable) the solution glows in the dark even when less than 1 ppm P4 is present.

I made a small amount of White P yesterday, and read that its reasonably soluble in MethylBenzene (about 9%).
so Ive dissolved a little (and its not all that easy) and yet theres no Glow-in-the-dark to be seen?

the WP itself works rather nicely, and has a strange white(ish) glow and leaves trails when you rub a small piece on a surface, a piece that is even hardly visible with the light on (very strange to watch).

so I have 2 questions,
1) how do these tiny particles last so long without burning up in an instant as WP normally does?
2) does it have to be Ethanol as the solvent for the Glow-in-the-dark liquid?

[Edited on 6-1-2008 by YT2095]

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vulture
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My guess is that your solvent needs to dissolve some oxygen in order for the glow in the dark to work.

One shouldn't accept or resort to the mutilation of science to appease the mentally impaired.
garage chemist
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I think that the solution itself doesnt glow, and the glow only becomes visible upon drying of the solution on a surface.
A lot of inorganic and organic vapors and gases inhibit the glow of P4 already in very high dilution in air.

I have experimented with solutions of P4 in carbon disulfide (extremely high solubility) and those solutions dont glow by themselves in air.
Only when the solution is left to evaporate on a piece of paper does the glow become visible (the paper then catches fire a few seconds afterwards, or it only chars if the solution was too dilute).

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YT2095
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I think mine was a little too dilute maybe a percent tops, it was only some smaller junk that wasnt worth keeping but enough not to waste it.

I dipped a glass rod into the soln and spread it onto a rizla paper (the blue ones) and yes in the darkroom there is a Very distinct glow
I dipped a safety match in it also, it didnt self ignite.
I also added an equal vol of 9% H2O2 and although it Split into 2 layers the Toluene did turn turbid, but still no glow, nor anything upon the Addition of MnO2 after.

if its of any use to anyone, I did find that gentle heating of the WP particles in Toluene will melt them to reform a single larger piece thats far more pleasing to the eye and better to store.
they will be a Little loss doing this, but not much, I ecpect the same thing would probably work well under Water also.

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chloric1
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 Quote: Originally posted by YT2095 I made a small amount of White P yesterday, and read that its reasonably soluble in MethylBenzene (about 9%). so Ive dissolved a little (and its not all that easy) and yet theres no Glow-in-the-dark to be seen? [Edited on 6-1-2008 by YT2095]

What method did you use? Do you have photos of your setup?

[Edited on 1/6/2008 by chloric1]

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YT2095
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no photos, but the method was pretty simple, I put a small amount or Red P in a test tube (a very thin walled glass type) and then heated half of the tube over the bunsen concentrating on the opening of the TT, I melted it shut like an ampuole.
that then leaves a a perfectly sealed amount of RP in a long glass tube with a slight vacuum in it.

I used my green laser and a lens to burn a tiny bit off to use up all the Oxygen left.

then I simply clamped the tube in the stand horizontaly with the end holding the RP slightly higher.

then it was just simple heating of the RP in stages and letting the white gas cloud run "downhill" and condense, allow the whole lot to cool and do the same again.
continue doing this until all the RP has gone.

when cool put it under Very cold water for a while (you dont need ice), and then with gloved hands crack the tube open under water with pliers, then scrape out the waxy solid with a spatula and put it in a jar of plain water to store.

Im sure there are other and Better methods, but that was my chosen one.

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-jeffB
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 Quote: Originally posted by garage chemist I have experimented with solutions of P4 in carbon disulfide (extremely high solubility) and those solutions dont glow by themselves in air. Only when the solution is left to evaporate on a piece of paper does the glow become visible (the paper then catches fire a few seconds afterwards, or it only chars if the solution was too dilute).

One of the 1950's-era "Chemical Magic" books I used to check out of the school library mentioned dissolving P4 in CS2, then mixing with an equal volume of oil -- linseed oil? Vegetable oil? I don't remember. The oil let the P4 get enough air to glow, but not enough to burn.

Still wishing I'd bought P4 back when it was just another chemical in the catalog. Of course, if I had, I'd probably have disposed with it along with the rest of the hazardous material when I had to move my stuff into an apartment...
MagicJigPipe
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So when I see all these homeopathic cold "remedies" on the shelves at Wal-Mart it's actually that super diluted stuff that is mentioned. I am apalled that there is not some law against that. If it's just milk sugar then they should have to list it as "Milk Sugar Pills".

I read that Quakwatch thing that was posted and I would concur that it is improbable that there is even a few molecules of phosphorus in those pills.

[Edited on 7-1-2008 by MagicJigPipe]

"There must be no barriers to freedom of inquiry ... There is no place for dogma in science. The scientist is free, and must be free to ask any question, to doubt any assertion, to seek for any evidence, to correct any errors. ... We know that the only way to avoid error is to detect it and that the only way to detect it is to be free to inquire. And we know that as long as men are free to ask what they must, free to say what they think, free to think what they will, freedom can never be lost, and science can never regress." -J. Robert Oppenheimer

 Sciencemadness Discussion Board » Fundamentals » Reagents and Apparatus Acquisition » Found.. White P Select A Forum Fundamentals   » Chemistry in General   » Organic Chemistry   » Reagents and Apparatus Acquisition   » Beginnings   » Responsible Practices   » Miscellaneous   » The Wiki Special topics   » Technochemistry   » Energetic Materials   » Biochemistry   » Radiochemistry   » Computational Models and Techniques   » Prepublication Non-chemistry   » Forum Matters   » Legal and Societal Issues