saps
Hazard to Self
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Registered: 7-3-2005
Location: New Britian
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ethanol or methanol as a fuel
i'd like to start a discussion about ethanol and methanol as fuels for cars. can any car run off of ethanol?
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chemoleo
Biochemicus Energeticus
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Registered: 23-7-2003
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You'd like to have a discussion.
How about you generate the opposing views necessary for having a discussion?
What sort of cars? Racing cars, model or real, or normal Mr. Everybody's cars?
What is the evidence this far for asking this question?
DO cars run on Et/MeOH?
How about you do a TINY bit of homework and post that before you start new threads like that?
This thread is on the brink of falling into the fuming red hell called Detritus ... oh yes and I am smelting a three-pronged ethidium-bromide coated
pitchfork!
[Edited on 23-10-2005 by chemoleo]
Never Stop to Begin, and Never Begin to Stop...
Tolerance is good. But not with the intolerant! (Wilhelm Busch)
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Mr. Wizard
International Hazard
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Run Forrest, run, run, the fuming red hell is chasing you.
Advantages of methanol:
It can be made from coal air and water,or natural gas. We can make all we need. It has a very high octane rating, so it won't ping as much, it
cools the incoming air charge, allowing more air mass to enter the engine. It will handle a little water contamination easily, so carb lines
won't freeze in the winter.
Disadvantages: It is made from coal, requiring a process that takes more work than refining gasoline, it has less BTUs or energy per volume than
gasoline or diesel, so you have to carry more of it. You can't just pour it into an existing vehicle, as the carburetion won't give the
right mixture. Ignition timing would also have to be adjusted compared to gasoline. Some carburetors are corroded by methanol. Sometimes ice forms on
the jets, although this wouldn't effect fuel injected engines. The flame of the burning fuel is colorless, which could be a safety problem. It
is toxic. The combustion products include formaldehyde and CO, which could be handled with a catalytic convertor.
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Ramiel
Vicious like a ferret
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I found it really interesting to talk to the unit co-ordinator for "Green Chemistry" which is a possible major here at UWA. It's pretty
fascinating, seems to combine that aspect of ethics that is lacking in most science units... But I digress.
Basically he was talking about all the different methods of 'getting' alcohols, hydrocarbons and hydrogen from Biomass. One method for this
involves scCO<sub>2</sub> extraction, it has very good success and is scalable to industry! 
combine that with new Pd/C-nanotube H<sub>2</sub> storage systems... well! I'm exited (and off topic again!). 
Personally, I think the idea of alcohols and[/or] Hydrogen as fuel sources for cars is a great one, the only reason H is loosing out ATM is because of
storage woes (which will hopefully <html><a
href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LightsabreConstructoin">vanish</a></html>!)
[edit - error in html linking genetic code replication in S phase]
[Edited on 23-10-2005 by Ramiel]
Caveat Orator
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Illegal Parkinson
Hazard to Self
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This is quite a fascinating post in that it addresses energy concerns. Government warnings about oil prices has been out of the papers recently but it
is a S&D situation. Nuclear power can run the pilons but the idea of running cars on electricity is not that hot but it could work for public
transport. I like this idea of using liquid hydrogen. Where does the hydrogen come from? Maybe NASA can develop the technology for manned visits to
Mars?
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BromicAcid
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Gas in my area contains 10% ethanol by volume and can contain up to 20% I've heard, but the 10% is on all the gas pumps. I have heard from other
memebers that this is not common nation wide, maybe that is why are gas prices are cheaper now and more expensive when gas prices get much lower.
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Mr. Wizard
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There is a gas station here that sells E-80, n ethanol gasoline mixture containing, you guessed it, 80% ethanol. It costs a few percent less than the
normal 10/90 ethanol gasoline mix. The down side is most cars are not set up to use it. Cars with injectors and computers can be set up with an
automatic sensor to use give the right amount, but most cars don't have this option. I wonder how practical it would be to isolate the ethanol
from the gasoline? I could mix the fuel with water and discard the non soluble gasoline, and then redistill the aqueous layer. Any ideas? It would
never be suitable for consumption, but as a raw material.
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