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stygian
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On the subject of ORMUS
Some of you may or may not have any idea what im talking about. The basic idea is elements or compounds with no metallic bonding. I feel this
subject is somewhat borderline but it seems to be (to me) worth looking into. Some of the chemistry is beyond my understanding so I want to hear what
some of the more versed of our members think.
The process states that repeatedly digesting gold with aqua regia and HCl breaks the gold into clusters of 2 atoms, in the chloride form, what i mean
is that the AuCl3 is actually Au2Cl6 (only a single metallic bond between 2 atoms, no bigger of a cluster). Then:
(6) Sodium chloride is added in an amount whereby the sodium is present at a ratio 20 moles sodium per mole of gold. The solution is then diluted with
deionized water to a volume of 400 ml. The presence of the aqueous sodium chloride provides the salt Na2Au2Cl8.
(This makes sense. AuCl3 + HCl gives HAuCl4, so NaCl should give NaAuCl4 (or, considering the metallic bond, Na2Au2Cl8))
The presence of water is essential to break apart the diatoms of gold.
(Ok? The patent says the sodium does the breaking apart. Or does it just assist?)
(7) The aqueous sodium chloride solution is very gently boiled to a just dry salt, and thereafter the salts were taken up alternatively in 200 ml
deionized water and 300 ml 6M hydrochloric acid until no further change in color is evidenced. The 6M hydrochloric acid is used in the last treatment.
(It says water is necessary to break the metallica bond, but this step says to boil to dryness? What role would the water and HCl play?)
(8) After the last treatment with 6M hydrochloric acid, and subsequent boildown, the just dry salt is diluted with 400 ml deionized water to provide a
monoatomic gold salt solution of NaAuCl2'XH2O. The pH is approximately 1.0.
(So is what we have here essentially NaCl + Au(I)Cl?)
Nowhere on the internet have I found the chemistry of the explained in a way I can understand, such as. "Once this is added, it forms
such-n-such, which upon boiling with HCl, does this, etc etc."
Another supposed method of producing these 'monoatomic' elements involves fusing e.g. copper powder with lye (which i intend to try soon).
Once dissolved in water, if the copper has indeed reacted should be evident, what compounds might be formed, some kind of sodium copper hydroxide?
Continuing on with the gold process:
(9) The pH is adjusted very slowly with dilute sodium hydroxide solution, while constantly stirring, until the pH of the solution remains constant at
7.0 for a period of more than twelve hours. This adjustment may take several days. Care must be taken not to exceed pH 7.0 during the neutralization.
(If you're just neutralizing the HCl you just added, is there a point to adding it anyway? My chemistry knowledge is limited here)
(10) After the pH is stabilized at pH 7.0, the solution is gently boiled down to 10 ml and 10 ml concentrated nitric acid is added to provide a
sodium-gold nitrate. As is apparent, the nitrate is an oxidizer and removes the chloride. The product obtained should be white crystals. If a black or
brown precipitate forms, this is an indication that there is still Na2Au2Cl8 present. If present, it is then necessary to restart the process at step
(1).
(Is there a reason sodiumgold nitrate is better than sodium chloride? Or is THIS what breaks the gold-gold bond?)
(11) If white crystals are obtained, the solution is boiled to obtain just dry crystals. It is important not to overheat, i.e., bake.
(I assume this means, "If the last step was successful, this is what you do now"
(12) 5 ml concentrated nitric acid are added to the crystals and again boiled to where the solution goes to just dry. Again it is essential not to
overheat or bake. Steps (11) and (12) provide a complete conversion of the product to a sodium-gold nitrate. No chlorides are present.
(Again, is this just switching nitrate for chloride, or is there some function to this?)
(13) 10 ml deionized water are added and again boiled to just dry salts. This step is repeated once. This step eliminates any excess nitric acid which
may be present.
(I can believe this.)
(14) Thereafter, the just dry material is diluted to 80 ml with deionized water. The solution will have a pH of approximately 1. This step causes the
nitrate to dissociate to obtain NaAu in water with a small amount of HNO3 remaining .
(Would this really happen? Maybe nitric acid is easily removed from these compounds whereas hydrochloric is not?)
(15) The pH is adjusted very slowly with dilute sodium hydroxide to 7.0 + 0.2. This will eliminate all free acid, leaving only NaAu in water.
(Makes sense)
(16) The NaAu hydrolyzes with the water and dissociates to form HAu. The product will be a white precipitate in water. The Au atoms have water at the
surface which creates a voluminous cotton-like product.
(This sounds believable to me. But like I said my knowledge of chemistry is limited.)
Afterwards you 'anneal' the HAu in inert atmosphere to remove the proton and form the supposed monoatomic element.
Here is, what seems to be, a legitimate study done on these materials. Results were "Inconclusive". The materials they obtained showed
some of the properties (mostly, the reaction to magnets) but they werent able to obtain yields or qualities claimed in the patent: http://www.geocities.com/spfaile/Ormus.html
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Hermes_Trismegistus
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Bafflement w/bullshit
It is a well known phenomena that if you throw enough multi-syllabic, scientific sounding crap at someone they usually will shut up and listen, not
wanting to look stupid.
The facts are that Dave Hudson is a fraud, a con-man, snake oil salesman, charlatan....etc.etc.
He fleeces the ignorant, in their ignorance, and is not even particularly original about it.
He describes a series of relatively simple chemical reactions and describes some things that are supposed to happen during them..
Reality is...he is just combing existing words in new ways and making no sense at all..
pseudo-scientifi-babble...
Unfortunately it is really difficult to educate the public about these parasites that prey on the real health fears of the general public.
People really want to beleive that there is a magic powder that will slow their aging and cure all their aches and pains.
Unfortunately, proper diet, good excercise and realistic health expectations and an accceptance that the aging process is a natural part of life does
not seem to be catching on...
So these bastards make money selling worthless crap to the frightened and the sick and the desperate.
My dear old dad always says that it's a good idea to look at the messenger before accepting the message.
I agree. Everything I have found on Dave Hudson indicates that he is a high-school dropout dirt farmer failure from the boondocks of arizona. How much
"cutting edge science" are you going to beleive has been done by a man that couldn't pass a grade 11 physics exam?
I also think it's a form of justice that this greasy prick who has been trying to get rich off the sick has now had something like six bypass
surgeries and still has ongoing heart problems.
What's the matter DAVE Hudson? Maybe you should stop going to those medical clinics and try taking some of that ORMUS powder yourself Eh, you
fucking snake!!! 
Unfortunately there is always another scammer waiting to pick up where he left off, there are now several companies selling that snake oil.
There will always be more "ionized bracelet, copper wristband, magnetic shoe implant" selling weasels trying to screw your gullible
grandmother out of her social security money!
Arguing on the internet is like running in the special olympics; even if you win: you\'re still retarded.
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Blind Angel
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Might be a bit of thread highjacking, but I hear the real deionized water is very hard to get since pure water is such a good solvent that it suck CO2
out the air and make HCO3, I also found out that distilled water has an actual pH of ~4.0 (the one bough in pharmacy and other place like that),
i'm I righ or simply fooled?
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12AX7
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::blink::
...Anyway...
So Hermes, only got 24 negative lines to say about the person? Nothing concrete and scientific? At all? Ok, so...
Tim
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Blind Angel
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Well googling for Dave Hudson yield a bunch of alchemy website (including the RangeGuide) as everyone know Alchemy (even though being the honored
ancestor of chemistry) is a pseudoscience, like astrology (revered ancestor of astronomy), that start bad.
Now googling for Ormes/Ormus doesn't give any better result: cold fusion, philosopher stone, life elixir.... hmm.... one also talk about using
you chakra to see atoms and start to analyse the structure according to this... re-hmm...
Pubmed yield nothing on Ormes/Ormus, monoatomic gold give one resulf on nanotech gold wire. So it doesn't look good sorry, I'm on Hermes
side on that, it's pseudoscience.
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stygian
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Well I guess..
Well, at one time my response would have been the same (Philosopher's stone? what malarky!) And even though I didn't ask for anyones
opinion on spirituality, they gave their opinions on it so I will say that I've had experiences to make me believe, or at least be more open
minded to it.
Surely amongst you geniuses there is somebody that can answer the very simple questions I've asked? Such as "NaOH + Cu -(melt)-> ?"
Or "Does/could repeatedly boiling a solution of sodium tetrachloroaurate cause any sort of a change?"
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vulture
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| Quote: |
(14) Thereafter, the just dry material is diluted to 80 ml with deionized water. The solution will have a pH of approximately 1. This step causes the
nitrate to dissociate to obtain NaAu in water with a small amount of HNO3 remaining .
(Would this really happen? Maybe nitric acid is easily removed from these compounds whereas hydrochloric is not?)
(15) The pH is adjusted very slowly with dilute sodium hydroxide to 7.0 + 0.2. This will eliminate all free acid, leaving only NaAu in water.
(Makes sense)
(16) The NaAu hydrolyzes with the water and dissociates to form HAu.
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This doesn't make sense. At a pH of 1 it is a basic salt and then at a pH of 7.0 it hydrolizes to the acid?
One shouldn't accept or resort to the mutilation of science to appease the mentally impaired.
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stygian
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SOme thoughts:
edit: was thinkin of a different part
Step 14: Maybe HNO3 is present as a sort of complex (similar to AuCl3.HCl) that does dissociate with H2O.
I don't really see why he used nitric acid though. I think the salt could possibly be reduced ala CuSO4 = ascorbic acid, though maybe with a
stronger reducing agent.
Where does it say that the sodium-gold nitrate is a basic salt?
Now on my other question, about fusing NaOH with Cu. In the "preparation of platinum salts" thread, KOH/KNO3 fusion is mentioned. What is
the product of these fusions?
[Edited on 28-10-2005 by stygian]
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resonance
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well ive made the stuff from "karom" brand himalayan rock salt...
its basically separating the salt away from the minerals and other supposed m-state material,
have taken a few doses, and noticed light changes, and definate electric hemispheric balancing...
i hear of someone who makes it from gold, and you get much more from your money, and it is better but you need a method, and there is none that work
online...
great for astral travellers and meditators, or just to try something different, i didnt anneal mine, people says tis not necessary others say it is...
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12AX7
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Platinium* group metals typically have high oxidation states, anionic in nature (i.e., platinate, rhenate, osmiate, etc., comparable to chromate,
tungstate, etc.). A hot, oxidizing, basic environment will certainly get the metals there. I don't know what oxidation state(s) are produced
from a melt.
A fusion with Cu probably won't do anything because Cu doesn't go above +2, although it does form the unstable cuprate there. To get some
ideas you might look up Brauer on potassium cuprate (II).
*Note the spelling. My little dig at the aluminium crowd 
Tim
[Edited on 10-29-2005 by 12AX7]
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Vlad
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Picture 1
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Vlad
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Picture 2
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Vlad
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Picture 3
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Vlad
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The three pictures in the previous posts are of an ORMUS precipitate.
What I did was extract from volcanic sand, and while waiting for the precipitate to settle I went away, and when I came back an hour or two later I
saw that triangular shape had formed from the ormus precipitate part and appeared on top of the layer of silica precipitate.
It's pretty amazing imo, I've never seen anything like it. How could it spontaneously form like that? I didn't fake the photos and I didn't 'arrange'
the precipitate by mechanical means (pretty impossible anyway since it's so fluffy even moving the beaker in front of the webcam made it lift up).
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Vlad
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| Quote: | | Surely amongst you geniuses there is somebody that can answer the very simple questions I've asked? Such as "NaOH + Cu -(melt)-> ?" Or "Does/could
repeatedly boiling a solution of sodium tetrachloroaurate cause any sort of a change?" |
From all I've researched and read, the ormus precipitate as per the method I made it, was by the man who taught the method called m-state, and he
claims it's a sodium bound form. He claims there is no such thing as monoatoms, only sodium bound forms of monoatoms (apparently) of platina group
metals. This is m-state. This man claims he observed for monoatomic gold one gold atom and three sodium atoms under an electron microscope. The
bondings I do not know about and I have seen discussion that it's imposibble for something like Na3Au to exist, so it's probably something like a
clathrate, maybe a sodium hydroxide hydrated form of a monoatom, or a monatomic hydroxide of a monoatom maybe with the sodium present for another
role?
The same man also claimed David Hudson's material was in the same form. According to the patent, David Hudson claims he goes from NaAu to HAu and then
anneals the hydrogen off to leave a pure monoatom.
I can state that using said man's methods, I made an interesting precipitate and noticed another interesting effect so it seems to work to produce
interesting material.
When dried the preciptiate looks like a white powder. At least when made from pure gold. When extracted from volcanic sand and dried it's more
off-white greyish.
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chemoleo
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Could you say what you actually did, how you prepared it?
I found this http://www.quantumbalancing.com/make_ormus.htm
What is all this about???
Never Stop to Begin, and Never Begin to Stop...
Tolerance is good. But not with the intolerant! (Wilhelm Busch)
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Vlad
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It's amazingly easy. What matters is the source material. And one of the very best if not the very best is volcanic sand. I used magnetic black
volcanic sand from Hawaii. I think it contains gold (but it's illegal to collect the sand btw).
(I don't have a lab and did this in my kitchen btw without expensive equipment like a funnel.)
I took the sand and put it in aqua regia first. This step is unnecessary for extracting 'ormus' but I performed it on this batch that showed the shape
so it might have mattered although I don't know-understand how it could have. I used a standard 1 part HNO3 3 parts HCl mix I think.
(I then ether extracted this and used the extract which I why I wanted to put it in aqua regia)
Then I dried the sand and made a strong NaOH solution (several spoonfulls per liter) in a stainless steel pot and boiled for a few hours. Depending on
how much potential 'ormus' your source material contains, this can be a very short time boiling (half an hour) up to a long time. Usually I boil two
hours. When all the sodium hydroxide is 'used up' for reacting with the sand to form potential ormus, the pot will 'bang'. It's not dangerous but if
it happens you'll notice it. That's the sign to stop boiling.
Then after cooling (the next day I think) I filtered the solution through a cotton towel. The sand can sometimes (usually) be used a few times.
Then I lowered the pH with phosphoric acid (80 something%). Vinegar can also be used and so can HCl.
(I think the use of phosphoric acid may have mattered perhaps for/in the formation of the triangular shape)
When I approached neutral pH, a chunky white precipitate started to form and drop, along with very fine fluffy white precipitate, the ormus
precipitate.
Then I let the solution stand for the mixed precipitates to settle and when I came back to check if the precipitates had settled I saw the shape on
the lower layer.
Now what is interesting about it is that this precipitate probably did not contain monoatomic gold or ormus gold, because I put the sand in aqua regia
first and I think most gold forms would have dissolved in the aqua regia. Rhodium and iridium and maybe platina present would not have dissolved in
the cold aqua regia and maybe be the probable major components of the ormus precipitate.
If you want to try this yourself, here is how I would have continued after the mixed precipitates had settled after filtering.
Decant the solution and 'wash' twice by adding distilled water, mixing up the precipitate, and let it settle again.
Then add some HCl, just enough to acidify and a bit more. The solution should turn faint yellowish-green.
The ormus precipitate dissolves, the dirty one doesn't. It's mostly silica sodium reaction products that don't dissolve in HCl.
Decant the solution and save it. Add distilled water to the remaining precipitate, mix up, and decant and save again until you feel you have
everything. I don't remember if I used to filter through a towel instead of decanting to leave the unimportant precipitate behind, but this could also
work though could cause contamination from the towel.
Then take the yellow greenish solution and adjust the pH near neutral with a NaOH solution or just by adding sodium bicarbonate powder (fast and
easy). The white fluffy precipitate drops again near pH 7. Then let it settle and wash with distilled water three times or more if you want all the
salt out.
That's the ormus precipitate that can according to said man who taught the basic of this method can be ingested for health benefits and is probably
the same or close to the same powder that David Hudson had.
[Edited on 1-2-2009 by Vlad]
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unionised
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Looks like a complicated way of making dirty silica gel then extracting a few metals from it.
When SiO2 is first precipitated it is very disorganised- a random array of SiO bonds with water in. As the precipitate ages ( and reorganises itself)
I guess it shrinks a bit. That would explaine the "curled up at the edges like an old sandwich" look of the stuff.
Extracting it with acid and getting a yellow/ green solution looks lo me as if you have found iron. Presumably it was trapped in a silicate lattice
before so it couldn't be extracted by the aqua regia.
There will be other stuff there too, zinc, aluminium, titanium etc. These will ppt when you neutralise the solution with bicarbonate.
There doesn't seem to be anything here apart from fairly ordinary chemisrty.
I think Hermes was right.
Was it worth resurecting this thread for?
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JohnWW
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| Quote: | | Originally posted by 12AX7A fusion with Cu probably won't do anything because Cu doesn't go above +2, although it does form the unstable
cuprate there. To get some ideas you might look up Brauer on potassium cuprate (II). |
Wrong- Cu(III) and (IV) are known, at least as fluorides and oxy-anions, although they are very strongly oxidizing.
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chemrox
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I don't understand why the claim of elements with no metalic bonding is considered in any way novel. I do avoid all sites connected with yahoo. You
might read about wetter water there too and will definitely pick up some spam.
"When you let the dumbasses vote you end up with populism followed by autocracy and getting back is a bitch." Plato (sort of)
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Vlad
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| Quote: | | When SiO2 is first precipitated it is very disorganised- a random array of SiO bonds with water in. As the precipitate ages ( and reorganises itself)
I guess it shrinks a bit. That would explaine the "curled up at the edges like an old sandwich" look of the stuff. |
I haven't been able to reproduce the triangular shape though. It's a fairly unique occurence as far as I noticed.
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Vlad
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What I actually ment is that I find it improbable that the triangular shape is a result of SiO since it can't be reproduced.
| Quote: | | Extracting it with acid and getting a yellow/ green solution looks lo me as if you have found iron. |
Or monoatomic gold, since if you start with pure gold metal you also end up with a grass green gold chloride solution instead of a yellow gold
chloride solution.
Could be iron, just could also be monoatomic gold. I noticed the yellow-green color before if gold is dissolved in HCl with H2O2 added.
[Edited on 2-2-2009 by Vlad]
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Sauron
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Hermes T. was right. This bullshit.
File this one next Red Mercury and the imaginary isotopes under D for Detritus.
Really this has nothing to do with amateur science.
[Edited on 2-2-2009 by Sauron]
Sic gorgeamus a los subjectatus nunc.
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not_important
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Vlad
It's amazingly easy. What matters is the source material. And one of the very best if not the very best is volcanic sand. I used magnetic black
volcanic sand from Hawaii.
(snip) |
Eroded basalts. Iron, titanium, manganese, barium, strontium, vanadium, chromium, tungsten, molybdenum, arsenic; all those will react with and extract
into hot strong alkali, some calcium will come along for the ride as well. Gold and any of the PGE in basalts typical are found in sub-ppb quantities,
even with some concentration in the sands they're not likely be be of significant proportion.
I don't understand why you think any of the noble metals would dissolve in hot alkaline solution, given that they are used for vessels for
concentrating solutions of NaOH and KOH, and fusing the solid hydroxides.
Out of the elements present in basalts, Fe, Mn, Cr, and V will all give compounds in the yellow-green range.
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Vlad
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| Quote: | | I don't understand why you think any of the noble metals would dissolve in hot alkaline solution, given that they are used for vessels for
concentrating solutions of NaOH and KOH, and fusing the solid hydroxides. |
The hot alkaline solution extracts the supposed monoatomic forms present in the source material. The monoatomics are supposed to be non-metallic in
that state and have other characteristics. I don't understand the exact science beyond it either, but I noticed that shape appeared and to me that's
peculiar and worth checking out.
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