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Vlad
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I'm not pulling your leg.
I said I can't put the process online, so no details and no reproducibility are nil because it is 100% reproducible and I have details.
No credibility is subjective.
No references - well like I said this turns the forum into a professional science forum then.
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not_important
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Vlad
The Red Gold process I learned from the chemical engineer is claimed to create inert diatoms that form a polymer with water. |
Please note
| Quote: | Diatoms (n):
Single-celled algae, different species of which live in different kinds of water. They secrete silicious skeletons that are morphologically distinct
to species. Diatom analysis involves sampling sediments from deep-sea cores or lake sediments and then analysing the species representation at
different levels to provide a picture of the changing environment. |
It might be better to use the terms di-atoms
Red Gold, besides being a copper-gold alloy with copper being roughly 1/4 to 1/2 the alloy, and a type of potato, is an alchemical term with
a half dozen common definitions including several biological ones. It is better to provide definitions for terms archaic, open to multiple
definitions, or used in a nonstandard meaning.
Edit
| Quote: | | I said I can't put the process online, so no details and no reproducibility are nil because it is 100% reproducible and I have details.
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Science, amateur or professional, is all about details, methods, and at least attempts at reproducibility. Anything else is not science; it may and
art or craft as in the old usage, or it may be storytelling, tale spinning, relating hearsay, or similar.
[Edited on 11-2-2009 by not_important]
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Sauron
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I did say: Paracelsus, not (Linus) Pauling.
Sic gorgeamus a los subjectatus nunc.
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watson.fawkes
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Vlad
I said I can't put the process online, so no details and no reproducibility are nil because it is 100% reproducible and I have details.
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I don't believe you that it's reproducible. Insofar as I can tell, it's just your assertion that it's so.
Your whole field is tainted with liars, charlatans, and dupes. The baseline respect you might otherwise have expected is absent in this situation.
It's your responsibility to convince us that there's something interesting here, and your word is insufficient. | Quote: | | No references - well like I said this turns the forum into a professional science forum then. |
You are
confusing sufficiency and necessity. Professional references would attract the interest of amateur scientists here. Such posting is sufficient to
attract such interest. It is not necessary, though, because other things could attract such interest. The most notable sufficient cause would be
posting the procedure with enough detail to be reproducible.
So, do you know this procedure personally and are unwilling to publish it? Or is that you've only ever seen it performed reproducibly? Or (and the
possibilities for lack of respect are growing) have you just had someone tell you that they're reproduced it? Or even that you've heard from someone
else that it's reproducible?
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Vlad
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| Quote: | | So, do you know this procedure personally and are unwilling to publish it? Or is that you've only ever seen it performed reproducibly? Or (and the
possibilities for lack of respect are growing) have you just had someone tell you that they're reproduced it? Or even that you've heard from someone
else that it's reproducible? |
I know the procedure and have performed it dozens of times; it is repeatable. I am unwilling to publish it because I don't want it on the net like
this on a forum and especially not on Google since posts from this forum show up in a search. I was told the process personally and it is also my
belief that the author does not wish the process put online and public in a manner like this.
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Sedit
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Sauron
A peer reviewed scientific journal is one in which all articles are submitted for review prior to publication to a referee or referrees who are
eminent figures in the specialized subject matter, there is then an exchange between the referree(s) an the autho(s) of the pepr resulting in
additions and corrections. When the referrees are satisfied onlyt then is the paper published.
The paper must meet the standards of the journal and follow its format.
Background, references, detailed experimental procedures and results, and analytical data inclusing instrumental analysis are required. For any novel
compounds claimed rigorous proof of structure and full physico-chemical characterization is required.
The ultimate test of the credibility of an article is REPRODUCIBILITY. Sufficient information needs to be provided so that the results can be
replicated, and if they cannot, the authors will probably stand in the corner wearing dunce's caps. Viz. the authors of the infamous Cold Fusion
debacle.
Kattesh Katti of U.Missouri has supposedly filed a US patent application, if so that is a public document. Patents have a somewhat different standard
to meet than do scientific peer reviewed journal articles. Katti and colleagues are obviously being entreprenurial (they formed a company) and trying
to obtain intellectual property rights is part and parcel of that. So is self promotion like posturing for that puffery in CHEMICAL WORLS.
What I want to see is the hard science in peer reviewed journals.
If there isn't any then, this might as well be the production of Unobtainium, or Gold Kryptonite a la DC Comics.
Because, sedit, THIS is how science is done. |
Thats what I thought.
For once as much as it kills me to say it  I agree with you fully.
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Innerspace
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Of laboratory mice and scientific men.
I don't have as much time to post as some here, so allow me to try and clarify. I am indeed an entrepreneur, as has been pointed out. I’m not a
scientist by training, but natural observation is the basis of all science. My formal training is in Political Science, Entrepreneurial Business, and
design/manufacturing. My business partner is mainly the formally trained engineering aspect of our operations, but that doesn’t mean that I have a
lack of topical and applied knowledge.
Unfortunately I think that some here missed the point of my postings. I'm not some new age huckster, and I try not to make unqualified statements. If
you’ve read any of the materials I mentioned in regards to the background on these materials then you can see whether or not any of it holds up to
your scrutiny. It's unwise to criticize something if you have no basis for it. On the point that the burden of proof is on me, forgive my being
naieve, your corrections were warranted in this situation. I’m not here to spar. Spending too much time in an electro magnetic field (your puter)
might have made some of you a little testy, I’d recommend more fresh air.
A personal attack is really unprofessional, and contributes little to scientific advancement. Scientific revolutions always occur outside of the
mainstream, and discoveries are always made by individual explorers, not dogmatic regurgitations. I'll cite Kuhn's "Structure of Scientific
Revolutions." (See Bottom)
The single article I mentioned about cancer and nanocolloidal gold can be found at www.zptech.net/metals-in-medicine.html. Some articles that I have yet to read were mentioned in earlier posts on this thread. ZPTECH is a retailer
of these materials, or at least their version of them. I don’t work for or with them, so you can discount that right off the bat. I’m just
interested in their applications, as some of you appear to be. You could always call them directly I you want specific data. They’ve been more than
happy to provide requested materials to me. I don't outlay capital without diligent research, it's just bad for business. Pretty transparent guys, no
strings, no snake oil. Their product is just metalurgy in action. Their claims might lack validity, but that's why we're here isn't it?
On the physics end, it’s not my area. The examples just made sense. In reffering to the observer effect I didn't mean that a human body bears the
same effect as a non- localized particle. I was using the analogy in a behavioral capacity. Might have been a bad analogy.
My thanks for the useful observations and criticisms. Compassion and a humble mindset are useful virtues and exist in opposition to arrogance. The
Lord Kelvins of the world like to rest on the laurels of their "knowledge"and individual achievements, but they resist new disocveries with great
vigor if anything falls to far out of the range of their anchor of acceptance. Classic behavioral analysis and communications theory.
I'll post more in the future when we're actually working with the materials. Until then, I hope there might be some useful discoveries and additions
around here. Prost Kameraden!
This sums up my point-
"One aspect of the parallelism must already be apparent. Political revolutions are inaugurated by a growing sense, often restricted to a segment of
the political community, that existing institutions have ceased adequately to meet the problems posed by an environment that they have in part
created. In much the same way, scientific revolutions are inaugurated by a growing sense, again often restricted to a narrow subdivision of the
scientific community, that an existing paradigm has ceased to function adequately in the exploration of an aspect of nature to which that paradigm
itself had previously led the way. In both political and scientific development the sense of malfunction that can lead to crisis is prerequisite to
revolution. Furthermore, though it admittedly strains the metaphor, that parallelism holds not only for the major paradigm changes, like those
attributable to Copernicus and Lavoisier, but also for the far smaller ones associated with the assimilation of a new sort of phenomenon, like oxygen
or X-rays. Scientific revolutions, as we noted at the end of Section V, need seem revolutionary only to those whose paradigms are affected by them. To
outsiders they may, like the Balkan revolutions of the early twentieth century, seem normal parts of the developmental process. Astronomers, for
example, could accept X-rays as a mere addition to knowledge, for their paradigms were unaffected by the existence of the new radiation. But for men
like Kelvin, Crookes, and Roentgen, whose research dealt with radiation theory or with cathode ray tubes, the emergence of X-rays necessarily violated
one paradigm as it created another. That is why these rays could be discovered only through something’s first going wrong with normal
research."(Kuhn 1962)
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sparkgap
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Vlad
I am unwilling to publish it because I don't want it on the net like this on a forum and especially not on Google since posts from this forum show up
in a search. I was told the process personally and it is also my belief that the author does not wish the process put online and public in a manner
like this. |
So there is nothing to discuss, then... what then is this thread for? Certainly, not allowing a disinterested third-party to verify a claim of
such-and-such is not conducive to the pursuit of progress.
In which case, since you won't let anyone else verify, this can only result in the trumpeting of the few, of which I believe this fine forum is not
intended for.
sparky (~_~)
"What's UTFSE? I keep hearing about it, but I can't be arsed to search for the answer..."
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Sauron
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Alchemists were big on secrecy and often encrypted their records, as I recall.
This is incompatible with science. Despite what we owe the alchemists for getting the ball rolling, they were really unscientific in this essential
regard. Science is community property.
Sic gorgeamus a los subjectatus nunc.
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Vlad
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Alchemy? Turning lead to gold? You don't believe it anyway but still...
Monoatomics can be converted back to metal. Extract from a source material that is cheap like some sands and doesn't contain precious metal, and
convert the monoatomics to (gold) metal. Possible and been done. Yes unscientific on my part don't believe me if you don't want to but I've seen the
pictures and know the process (it's in Hudson's patent one way, and another you may know: burn monoatomics powder with sulfur and add a collecting
metal for the gold formed like silver).
Another more interesting facet is the creation of the stone or projection stones, notably powders that transmute metal upon introduction into molten
metal like lead or tin or heated mercury.
This is also possible. I don't understand how it works, I think many people who have done this don't understand it either, but it works according to
some people I talked to and discussed this with and read from. So this is hearsay.
The real reason imo that there is secrecy has not to do with the fact that there is transmutation going on. It has to do with the ability of these
substances to enhance or expand consciousness to a god like state. This was the food of high priests and kings.
You can't just give this to a common person. It's incompatible. That's one reason it's incompatible with science since science is accessible for the
common man. (And look how that polluted the world since the industrial revolution)
[Edited on 11-2-2009 by Vlad]
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Vlad
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The attached picture shows transmuted gold. It was transmuterd and reduced from a solution while still in the testtube. Look closely you will see the
gold adheres to the glass of the test tube. The gold was not poured molten into the test tube because the heat would have deformed the glass.
[Edited on 11-2-2009 by Vlad]
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Sauron
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Transmutation means changing an element into another element.
Allegedly changing gold into gold is not transmutation.
Shy of high energy physics you will not be transmutating anything at all.
You continue to trip over your own ignorance.
You might want to review what it means to be an element and what the difference is between a chemical process and a nuclear one. Transmutation is a
nuclear process. Radioactive decay is a nuclear process. Many radioisotopes eventually decay to lead, naturally in some cases and artificially in
others. You would be well advised to obtain a clear idea of what an isotope is as opposed to an element.
Sic gorgeamus a los subjectatus nunc.
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watson.fawkes
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@Vlad
| Quote: | Originally posted by Vlad
I know the procedure and have performed it dozens of times; it is repeatable. I am unwilling to publish it because I don't want it on the net like
this on a forum and especially not on Google since posts from this forum show up in a search. I was told the process personally and it is also my
belief that the author does not wish the process put online and public in a manner like this. |
Why on earth
or in heaven or in hell are you asking us to share our time with you when you refuse to share yourself? This really is a kindergarten-level of skill
in respect wer're talking about. And then, to compound the problem, you later posted photos of the result of some secret process. My reaction is so
what? I can't conclude anything relevant to some hypothetical process from just a few photos. It's just more disrespect from you that you keep
claiming things, even in pictorial form, with publishing sufficient information to allow reproducibility.
If you publish it, it will get out, no matter how you do it, because once you publish it, someone else with publish it elsewhere. So that first reason
is self-referential nonsense.
As for the second reason, you apparently didn't promise him not to publish the technique and he apparently didn't even ask you to keep it private. You
don't need to reveal any names in order to publish a lab procedure. What I conclude from this is that either (1) you value your relationship with this
person more than you value external assistance from the participants of this board or (2) you've been telling lies.
So, if you have respect for the people here, you can either post this procedure or you can stop asking people here to be interested. It's your choice.
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Sedit
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Vlad I performed an experiment a while back that formed a substance looking exactly lick that. Guess what I used to ake that gold substance... Lean
and Tin alloy. It was an experiment of mine to try to produce a soldering flux that contained finely divided solder in flux so that the compound could
be brushed on and soldered two copper pipes together without the need for the two step process of fluxing and solder.
What I achieve eventialy was a ratio of compounds that satifyed my needs because I am a plumber by trade. But in the process When mixing the salts of
the two metals into the flux which is mainly bees wax and ammonia chloride if im not mistaken the heat and bees wax produced a reductive enviroment
allowing the metals to drop out as the flux evaportated. What gets left behind is that surface oxidized material looking exactly like what you have
there.
I am also seeing some green salt there in that picture do you care to tell what that is?
You speak of the philosophers stone correct? I found that years ago after reasearching its origins what what I found that that Mercury Sulfate (HgS)
loosely translates from ancient china to philosophers stone. In its pure form it fits the old discriptions given to it and also they believed that
mercury could also accomplish two things. One being the transmution of gold and the other being that the ancient chinese thought that mercury had the
ability to give " eternal life."
(I almost agree with them but thats a whole nother story and is base on a mummy they found in china over 3000 years on in perfect condition after
being submerged into a solution of HgS amonst other things. Keep in mind they thought that if the body stayed in tacked the soul never died.)
The point I am getting at here is just because it looks like gold and glitters like gold dosnt mean that it is gold.
I want to see that substance you have there put into a specific gravity test and at the very least a scratch plate test
Because other then that I can perform an experiment from my kids chemistry set that can turn a copper penny into "Gold" if you know what I mean.
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watson.fawkes
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Sauron
Alchemists were big on secrecy and often encrypted their records, as I recall. [...] This is incompatible with science. Despite what we owe the
alchemists for getting the ball rolling, they were really unscientific in this essential regard. Science is community property.
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It's incompatible with <i>public</i> science. Science is only as big as its community. The claim
that the NSA had public key cryptography years earlier than the public did is an example. So when was it discovered? It was discovered twice. The
first public discovery was later than the first private one, but because it remained private, it doesn't get priority. We reserve the notion of
priority for public science.
If Vlad doesn't want to publish, fine. But then he's outside of this community and we can ignore him.
The persuasive argument is that science happens both faster and more faithfully the larger the community is. By tale, I hear of a community of two
(maybe three). If they pull off something amazing, good for them. As long as they remain apart from public science, I'll listen to them only after
they've done their hypothetically amazing thing, and not a moment before.
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watson.fawkes
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@Innerspace
Thank you being moderately reasonable. And I say only "moderately" because of the flagrant hypocrisy that I quote from you. | Quote: | Originally posted by Innerspace
Spending too much time in an electro magnetic field (your puter) might have made some of you a little testy, I’d recommend more fresh air. [...] A
personal attack is really unprofessional, and contributes little to scientific advancement. |
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Sauron
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W-F, idle banter with people like innerspace is truly time wasted.
He believes in things, as Douglas Adams once put it, that they wouldn't swallow even in Salt Lake City.
Pick your fights, he is a write-off. Hopeless case. Lost cause.
Sic gorgeamus a los subjectatus nunc.
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watson.fawkes
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Sauron
W-F, idle banter with people like innerspace is truly time wasted. [...] He believes in things, as Douglas Adams once put it, that they wouldn't
swallow even in Salt Lake City. |
I complimented only to the extent that he acknowledged that the burden of
proof was on him and that he had not yet met it. That behavior is entirely appropriate, and evidently uncommon (as witnessed also on this thread so
far), and worthy of my answer. As to his quasi-scientific interests, I have nothing to praise.
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Sauron
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I merely meant that it's a waste of energy, I did not mean you were unduly symathetic.
Sic gorgeamus a los subjectatus nunc.
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hissingnoise
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Sauron
Even in Salt Lake City. |
And where is WTFTech.com (ZeroPointTechnologies) based?
Yep! It's Utah. . .
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hissingnoise
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. . .not that I've got anything against Morons!
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Vlad
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| Quote: | Transmutation means changing an element into another element.
Allegedly changing gold into gold is not transmutation.
Shy of high energy physics you will not be transmutating anything at all.
You continue to trip over your own ignorance.
You might want to review what it means to be an element and what the difference is between a chemical process and a nuclear one. Transmutation is a
nuclear process. Radioactive decay is a nuclear process. Many radioisotopes eventually decay to lead, naturally in some cases and artificially in
others. You would be well advised to obtain a clear idea of what an isotope is as opposed to an element.
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I know what you are saying. But this was not gold. This was lead and copper, changed into gold. It was tested on tests for pure gold by a professional
metallurgist and miner who knows what is gold and what not. It's better/stranger this transmuted gold than pure natural gold apparently. It doesn't
even dissolve in cold aqua regia which gold does. Requires hot aqua regia to dissolve.
| Quote: | As for the second reason, you apparently didn't promise him not to publish the technique and he apparently didn't even ask you to keep it private. You
don't need to reveal any names in order to publish a lab procedure. What I conclude from this is that either (1) you value your relationship with this
person more than you value external assistance from the participants of this board or (2) you've been telling lies.
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I don't want some processes to end up patented and published in journals under another's name. This patenting of an 'alchemical' process/product
happened before and money is a motivation as many times. I don't like certain substances that enhance consciousness to end up being patented for greed
or fame.
| Quote: |
I am also seeing some green salt there in that picture do you care to tell what that is? |
I don't know, the author of the transmutation kept parts a mystery, but it was obvious from his explanation that this was the remainder of a green
solution of gold. Where have we seen this before?
| Quote: | You speak of the philosophers stone correct? I found that years ago after reasearching its origins what what I found that that Mercury Sulfate (HgS)
loosely translates from ancient china to philosophers stone. In its pure form it fits the old discriptions given to it and also they believed that
mercury could also accomplish two things. One being the transmution of gold and the other being that the ancient chinese thought that mercury had the
ability to give " eternal life."
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I have read that ORME elements have no electron shield that prevents nuclear particles to go migrate outside the nucleus to another element. The
electron shield is squashed like a saucer shape with both poles of the atom exposed I believe the explanation was. This allows an ORME element to
change to another element, and the explanation was also given that all elements donate or accept particles until they become gold.
David Hudson in his lectures online also said that monoatomic mercury if correctly made drops to gold. Hg is right next to Au. If the previous
explanation is correct this makes sense.
The HgS method for making the philosopher's stone seems to involve KOH to make a monoatomic form of the mercury through the potassium ion reaction
just like sodium is used for. Then the monoatomic mercury is made to drop down to gold, and it is the monoatomic gold or another isotope of it that
has unique properties as the philosopher's stone and transmutes.
There is a book I had from a Danish alchemist from the 80s who had pictures of the stone and transmuted gold, and had subjected the projection powder
or philosopher's stone to lab tests, and one thing that came out besides that it's a very heavy substance, is that it's a radioactive substance.
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Pomzazed
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Vlad
The HgS method for making the philosopher's stone seems to involve KOH to make a monoatomic form of the mercury through the potassium ion reaction
just like sodium is used for. Then the monoatomic mercury is made to drop down to gold, and it is the monoatomic gold or another isotope of it that
has unique properties as the philosopher's stone and transmutes. |
sorry, but WTF?
Don't stare at me making fumes... I'm just experimenting with some gas...
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hissingnoise
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Congratulations, Vlad, you've rendered us catatonic. . .
Some of us can't even remember who we are or what we're supposed to be doing.
You've pulled the comforting rug of REALITY from under our feet and now *we're* looking for religious texts so that *we*, too can get all worked up
over utter rubbish. . .
[Edited on 12-2-2009 by hissingnoise]
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watson.fawkes
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Vlad
I don't want some processes to end up patented and published in journals under another's name. This patenting of an 'alchemical' process/product
happened before and money is a motivation as many times. |
Please learn some patent law. Only the true
inventor may file a patent application. When someone who is not the true inventor files an application, it's called patent fraud. One of the very
quickest ways of invalidating a patent, even before issuance, is to show that there was fraud.
Now, if you're worried about patents, you should worry about this associate of yours filing for one. If you publish it prior to that (and you don't
have to take personal credit for it to do so), it counts as prior art. Even if you're not worried about your associate, they may well have told other
people, people who <i>are</i> unscrupulous and who would be willing to commit fraud.
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