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Author: Subject: On the subject of ORMUS
Vlad
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[*] posted on 2-2-2009 at 08:02


In David Hudson's patent, the boiling down with salt supposedly serves to tie sodium to the gold.
People skip this step and make monoatomic gold (including commercially) by burning gold metal with sodium metal and then boiling it in sodium hydroxide and precipitating it out.

I never tried above method, but I managed to make monoatomic gold from pure gold another similar way, and when freshly precipitated, a field could be felt emanating or around the beaker with the precipitate in it. I felt it and a sceptic friend who was there. It felt like a magnetic field without push or pull. There is definitely something about this substance imo. I never felt a magnetic field from a beaker with precipitate before.
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[*] posted on 2-2-2009 at 08:33


ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZNext stop: antigravity.

Bullshit!




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[*] posted on 2-2-2009 at 10:01


Bullshit you say? Where is your proof? For a man of your supposed caliber this synthesis should pose no problem to attempt one afternoon and report back on where his patent is bullshit.

Is there anyone that could possibly pull up and legitimate patent on this subject?

I have looked and found many places like here and they all seem to run the same patent over and over yet search results on real patent searches pulled up nothing.
http://www.rexresearch.com/ormes/ormes.htm

I am willing to try this , albeit alot skeptical of it because after all it is a patent and a sketchy on at that, If someone is capable of pulling up a real patent and not just some hearsay propaganda from the internet then its a go.

The original if indead is real makes no claims of healing property or anything of supernatural origin. All it states is that he found a way to shift the electrons from one orbital to another which sometimes shows superconducting properties.
One thing I find funny is that all the sites that talk about healing propertys ect use the term ORMUS as to not , from what one site specificly said, patent infringe. The real term for this is ORMEs

I would love to see what he is getting and possibly confusing as something else.
Unlike some people I prefer to try things Im skeptical about instead of calling bullshit on something I dont understand and have never done.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
random video about ormes. semi scientific
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2129165010048711403

[Edited on 2-2-2009 by Sedit]
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[*] posted on 2-2-2009 at 10:29


Sedit,
It was bollocks 3 years ago and it's bollocks now.
If you had gold as a monatomic material- say a really fine colloid, it would dissolve very rapidly in aqua regia. Certainly coloidal gold dissolves faster than the bulk metal so as single atoms the reaction would be faster still.
So, any monatomic gold (if it ever existed) would be dissolved at the first stage.

As for "I have looked and found many places like here and they all seem to run the same patent over and over yet search results on real patent searches pulled up nothing.", doesn't that tell you something?
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[*] posted on 2-2-2009 at 10:38


Tells me about everything and im on the same page as every one else in thinking this is BS.

But I also chose not to rule out anything I have no personal experiance with either and was woundering if someones patent searching skills where better then mine.

The thing that gets me is he calls them monoatomic gold yet stated that they are large clusters of gold atoms bonded thru a nonmetalic bond similar to BECs, to me this is a contridiction in itself.
I feel this man may have produced something but due to his lack of information was unable to understand what he had. Hence I would love to attempt it just to see what gets formed. The synthesis dont seem complicated just a little involved so worse case senario is I wasted an afternoon playing with chemicals:D
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watson.fawkes
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[*] posted on 2-2-2009 at 10:45


Quote:
Originally posted by Vlad
What I did was extract from volcanic sand, and while waiting for the precipitate to settle I went away, and when I came back an hour or two later I saw that triangular shape had formed from the ormus precipitate part and appeared on top of the layer of silica precipitate.
The triangle shape, to my eye, looks exactly like something related to seed-crystal growth. It looks like your precipitate started (randomly, I'll presume) in this case at the bottom edge of the beaker. Growing along the planes of equal mass-action, you get something that is, mathematically, identical to optical wave propagation in a non-homogeneous medium. The boundaries between the glass and the precipitate have slightly higher mass action from the local geometry, so you get a hyperbolic surface (=local negative curvature) as it crawls along the surface of the glass a little faster than it grows forward along its surface.

There's a second process going on that gives rise to the triangle. It seems like its driven by a solubility difference, where the coloring material comes out of solution later. In any case, that triangle shape is indicative of one of the higher-order singularities, whose cross section is exactly a triangle with a caustic point at each vertex. This, again, has a direct analogy to optics, and admits an analysis of relating some kind of mass-action difference to propagation speed.
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[*] posted on 2-2-2009 at 11:22


Found it here.
http://inventors.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?zi=1/XJ/Ya...

Kinda interesting dont ya think that this guy lives in Phoenix AZ and yet he took out the patent in the UK, sounds a little fishy to me.
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[*] posted on 2-2-2009 at 19:10


This entire thread is an insult to everything that this forum is supposed to stand for.



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[*] posted on 2-2-2009 at 19:27


Then perform scientific method and discredit it. Thats the way the scientific methods work isn't it?
I must be wrong because it seems as though many think that it is based on opinion and assumptions.

I think the guy is either mislead or an out right fraud but never the lest if every one thought like you Sauron the world would still be flat and the center of the universe.

Close mindedness has no place in science when someone puts out a repeatable proceedure which this man has, and where his logic is obviously flawed, saying that he didnt obtain some sort of material with unusual properties without trying it first hand it like a virgin trying to tell me about the joys of sex.
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[*] posted on 2-2-2009 at 22:54


The word is "misled"

No one needs to waste their time on this obvious chicanery. No one needs to dignify such ludicrous malarky by engaging in debunking it. If it looks like shit and smells like shit and has flies buzzing around it, I suggest you don't put your foot in it. Do you need to analyze a pile of manure to ascertain that it is crap? NO.

Monoatomic gold. Why don't we discuss engrams and orgone boxes, hold a seance and consult the shade of L.Ron Hubbard? The Scientologists claim to be scientific, too. Ask John Travolta. Ask Tom Cruise. Or better yet - leave them to their delusions.




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[*] posted on 2-2-2009 at 23:39


"Do you need to analyze a pile of manure to ascertain that it is crap"

How many of our medicines and fertilizer where obtained from careful analysis of that crap? Do you see where Im getting here?

Without careful debunking two things happen,
One we end up with what happend here and now thousands of people are possibly being swindled out of there money due to the fact that almost no one in a position to do so steped up and said "look we attempted every methode disscussed and quite frankly this is bullshit".

And two we miss the metaphoric 'gold' that is hidden deaply in that pile of shit that we are analyzing.

To get an idea of how someone should proceed here before speaking go here, http://www.rexresearch.com/ormes/ormeprep.htm

And scroll all the way down to the experiments by James Mann, He being as what i percieve as a believer is under the impression that he fucked up some how because at step 10 (what ever that maybe I havent been able to verify WTF step 10 is yet) he always obtained a black precipitate. After many boils in nitric acid solutions I wouldnt doubt that what he was obtaining was a gold oxide precipitate which sounds quite normal after the conditions that they are putting them thru.

The next example also seems prone to failure and they cant even find there gold for that matter,

These two debunkings are how it should be done because word of mouth and what someone believes is what lead to this being carryed on for over a decade now to begin with.
Word of mouth proves nothing, only carefully carryed out repeatable experiments proves things.

When I first read this almost 10 years ago I knew very little about chemistry and this seemed very plausible. I was under the assumption that he would take a metalic salt and neutralize it until PH was as even as could be, I have had it in the back of my mind ever since just to have it awakend when I opened this threed which caused me to looks a little deaper.

My question would have to be aside from the whole idea of what this guy is trying to accomplish.

What would be produces if say, A solution of copper chloride was very slowly and preciesly neutralized with NaOH to afford NaCl, would the Copper hydroxide form or would some equalibriam set up here?

[Edited on 3-2-2009 by Sedit]
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[*] posted on 3-2-2009 at 02:07


The wise man picks his fights and does not fritter away his time and energies on trivialities like this.



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[*] posted on 3-2-2009 at 02:25


Quote:
Originally posted by Sedit
Then perform scientific method and discredit it. Thats the way the scientific methods work isn't it?
I must be wrong because it seems as though many think that it is based on opinion and assumptions.


It could be said it is already disproved, based on decades and even centuries of research and theory on the chemistry of gold and the platinum metals.

This ORMUS does not fit within establish chemistry, established by the scientific method. Proponents of ORMUS are the ones who must present sufficient evidence to call into question the established theories.

They state that there is a new form of existence for these atoms, one where normal valance electrons do not act in their typical fashion. The atoms do not bond to themselves, are not detectable by wet chemistry or by optical emission spectroscopy; all of which involve electrons with energies of a few eV. They also are not detectable by XRF, involving K and L shell electrons and energies in the KeV range, for the heavy elements of ORMUS in the 10s of KeV; and apparently not by mass spec as done for isotope determination for geological research.

Yet these atoms form chlorides and hydroxides, meaning there are valence shell interactions. The explanation given often involves hyperdistorted nuclei, energy levels orders of magnitude higher than XRF and not noted for long term stability and dumping their energy as gamma radiation. No explanation is given as to why these atoms do not have some sort of vis-UV emission spectra from these chemically interacting electrons.

Given that a number of elements were discovered by optical emission spectroscopy, it is very odd that they were not discovered in the last 150 years by UV-Vis methods. It is even odder that

Quote:
David Hudson, a present-day alchemist who "re-discovered" Ormus in basalt rock in the Arizona desert, indicates that as much as 5% of the dry matter weight of our nervous system could be Ormus elements


Soils which are considered rich in these elements might contain up to six percent of this material.


Yet conventional wet chemical analysis has failed to notice this 5% missing mass. Once again several elements were discovered when chemical analysis of minerals failed to give percentage totals near 100%, differences caused by unknown elements acting chemically like known ones or not being caught in the existing procedures.


This reminds me of alchemical experiments with repeated evaporations or distillations to obtain some product, where the product might have nothing to do with the starting materials but was the result of leaching from containers or matter falling into the containers.

For those experiments to be more meaningful, blanks should have be run; both using just the reagents but no gold or mineral, and reagents plus pure silica or silicates related to the bulk of the minerals.

Also missing is actual hard data from the instrumental analysis performed. The appearance of statements similar to "The lab prefers to remain anonymous" is somewhat off putting. There is no reason why a sample could not have been taken to a commercial or university lab and been analysed 'blind' and those results published with the lab information.

Note that for many of those processes given the starting material is a complex mixture of compounds. A number of hydroxides tend to strongly absorb various ions on their surface, unless properly treated confusion will result further on in the analysis. Download a few inorganic analysis books from the Internet Archive, ones that include the rarer elements, and read through them and note the places where special care is needed.
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[*] posted on 3-2-2009 at 03:58


Worth chucking out is more like it.

It;s all blather intended to fool the gullible and ignorant.

It's utter nonsense.




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[*] posted on 3-2-2009 at 08:47


How do you know?
Considering the tone and lack of any useful information as to what is wrong with it I would assume that you have never even looked into in in the slightest bit.
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[*] posted on 3-2-2009 at 09:25


If I want to visit a fantasy world I'll go see LORD OF THE RINGS.

When I do science I do science not bunkum.

ORMUS is bunkum. Its discussion does not belong on this forum except perhaps in Whimsy.




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[*] posted on 3-2-2009 at 10:21


Quote:
Originally posted by Sedit
How do you know?
Considering the tone and lack of any useful information as to what is wrong with it I would assume that you have never even looked into in in the slightest bit.

Didn't you read this bit?
"Given that a number of elements were discovered by optical emission spectroscopy, it is very odd that they were not discovered in the last 150 years by UV-Vis methods. It is even odder that

Quote:
David Hudson, a present-day alchemist who "re-discovered" Ormus in basalt rock in the Arizona desert, indicates that as much as 5% of the dry matter weight of our nervous system could be Ormus elements


Soils which are considered rich in these elements might contain up to six percent of this material.


Yet conventional wet chemical analysis has failed to notice this 5% missing mass. Once again several elements were discovered when chemical analysis of minerals failed to give percentage totals near 100%, differences caused by unknown elements acting chemically like known ones or not being caught in the existing procedures."

The missing 5% isn't missing so there's clearly something wrong with the idea that 5% of the nervous system or 6% of a rock might be something unknown.
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[*] posted on 3-2-2009 at 18:00


Quote:
If I want to visit a fantasy world I'll go see LORD OF THE RINGS.

When I do science I do science not bunkum.

ORMUS is bunkum. Its discussion does not belong on this forum except perhaps in Whimsy.


Reading your post is such a waste of my time yet I still seem to put my self through it for some reason.

ORMUS is no doubt in my mind bunk and David Hudson is no doubt a charletin trying to make money from his failing crop land due to poor soil by trying to claim that it has the rarest substance in the world in it.

This is of no concern to me what I was getting at is science always likes to call Bullshit if it dont understand something, you have shown a compleate lack of knowlage on the subject and only carry on a conversation on opinion instead of information. Unionised stated opinion and information, your post here are more along the lines of trolling.

Quote:
Its discussion does not belong on this forum except perhaps in Whimsy.


So you think its better to bury false information under a rock instead of publicly making it known to be false? Obviously there are more uninformed out there that will not understand that this is bunk like I was when I first read it years ago.

It is a general disscussion of a chemical synthesis that is public knowlage. Although it may be a false synthesis the disscussion of why it is still holds merit just as any threed that you have written in this forum.So one hearing about ORMUS for the first time and using TFSE will now be able to save them selfs time and effort.

~Sedit
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[*] posted on 3-2-2009 at 18:43


Another part of this that makes little sense
Quote:

The gold must be properly dissolved to as small a particle size as possible
...
Each flask contains two litres of aqua regia with 500 mg of gold.
...
After one month on the stirrer, the contents of the flask are reduced to a dry salt as per step 1, fresh aqua regia added, and placed on the stirrer for another month.


This is a slight excess of aqua regia to dissolve a half gram of gold. That aqua regia is not a stable mixture, but rather decomposes with standing, seems to be overlooked as well.

It seems that they believe that dissolving gold in aqua regia does not easily produce HAuCl4, but instead results in particulate or clustered gold, and that additional processing must be done to get "monoatomic gold" Never mind that studies have been done on the structure of HAuCl4 and related compounds (it is present in solution as a dimer Au2Cl6 with the gold atoms connected through a double bridge of halide atoms.); ignore that gold clusters and nano particles have been extensively studied for years.

BTW - they also ignore decades of experience of analytic chemistry in regards to working with gold, in particular that care must be taken to avoid loses due to the reduction of gold to a fine colloidal state that does not settle out and passes through filter paper and most fritted filters.
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[*] posted on 4-2-2009 at 02:37


Don't waste your breath. The true believers will just curse you for a heretic and continue in their unreason.



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[*] posted on 4-2-2009 at 04:54


Amen!
I see Sauron, your bullshit detector is fully-functional and up-to-date.
I can skip this thread. . .
(Online again after a long outage)
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[*] posted on 4-2-2009 at 06:33


So if I get it right, the white precipitate you get from burning gold metal with sodium metal and then boiling in a NaOH solution and precipitating out, is a metallic gold nanoparticle or ordinary hydroxide or something?

Professional chemists have made this substance in a lab and made sure that there is no contamination from the crucible or reagents, so it's almost certainly a gold-sodium reaction product.
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[*] posted on 4-2-2009 at 06:34
To hissingnoise:


Yes, it's a recent pro model and I keep the firmware updated.

[Edited on 4-2-2009 by Sauron]




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[*] posted on 4-2-2009 at 17:48


Vlad I would like to see a refrence for the substance he pofessional chemist have made. Im assuming your not talking of Ormes because the only accounts that I have found where professionals have conducted hudsons patents ended up with nothing more then a black precipatate.

If you look around there are plenty of papers describing the production of gold nano particals which is about the only thing that is even remotely monoatomic gold.
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[*] posted on 5-2-2009 at 03:07


I have no reference. I know this from a mailing list I was/am subscribed onto and where chemists are subscribed on too as well, and some of them made the grass green goldchloride solution Hudson refers to as being a monoatomic chloride and subsequently precipitated a white fluffy flocculant/precipitate from it that when dried and annealed is said to be gold orme. So obviously the boiling down steps in the patent to reach a green solution do work.
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