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Author: Subject: On the subject of ORMUS
DrP
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[*] posted on 5-2-2009 at 03:29


Quote:
Originally posted by Sauron
This entire thread is an insult to everything that this forum is supposed to stand for.


Quite an amusing read though. Catch this bit from the BS site that was posted:

QUOTE:
"10. Since Ormus is strongly affected by intent and by energy fields, it seems to increase its potency if you surround it with high-energy objects. These range from crystals, to photos of beloved teachers or grandmothers, to written intentions of goals, etc. "

Ha ha ha..! Perhaps Vlad's crytals will get bigger if he meditates over them chanting ohmmmmmmm rythmically.




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[*] posted on 5-2-2009 at 07:59


If you are so certain it's all BS why don't you try to reproduce it just to show it's all wrong and that it's just a nanocluster. I've seen pictures of the green goldchloride solution and if you can get that well then you might be able to show you have what you believe to be ordinary gold nanoparticles. But most of those who claim it's BS can't or won't even produce the green goldchloride solution. What does that say about their analytical and logical skills in chemistry then?

[Edited on 5-2-2009 by Vlad]
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[*] posted on 5-2-2009 at 08:26


Got this from archives: "Gold is not detected by ICP-MS in the green gold chloride solution."
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[*] posted on 5-2-2009 at 10:22


Quote:
Originally posted by Vlad
Got this from archives: "Gold is not detected by ICP-MS in the green gold chloride solution."


By conventional wisdom this would mean that there is no gold in the solution. As a fair amount of research has been done, and numerous commercial ventures depend on the proper detection of gold in samples, the claim that there is non-detectable gold in the green solution becomes an extraordinary claim and requires strong evidence from those making the claim to become a valid challenge. It is not up to the established view to prove the contrary.

As ICP-MS produces ions using a temperature of ~ 6000-8000 C from a plasma torch, and then MS to sort and detect those ions, the ORMUS gold must not ionise as normal gold at that temperature. Again, this goes against existing experience, claimants must provide evidence that there is indeed gold in the sample, prove after the sampling by recovering gold from it and not dismiss the detection of other elements as being the m-gold disguising itself.

The wide range of processes and conditions used to produce these claimed extraordinary forms of gold seem to be rather prone to losses and contamination. Better control would be needed for presenting as evidence. Claims the experienced chemists have done so in laboratory settings mean little without supportive evidence; I can claim that I performed such experiments and obtained a rather good grade of vanilla toffee, claims that expect you to accept unless you can disprove them.

So prepare a sample, present it for analysis along with the description of a process that will demonstrate that there indeed is gold in the sample, a way to detect that gold, and then you have a case.
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[*] posted on 5-2-2009 at 11:45


Quote:
Originally posted by Vlad
If you are so certain it's all BS why don't you try to reproduce it just to show it's all wrong and that it's just a nanocluster. I've seen pictures of the green goldchloride solution and if you can get that well then you might be able to show you have what you believe to be ordinary gold nanoparticles. But most of those who claim it's BS can't or won't even produce the green goldchloride solution. What does that say about their analytical and logical skills in chemistry then?

[Edited on 5-2-2009 by Vlad]


For the same reason I'm also not going to spend all night at the bottom of my garden looking for fairies.

They might be there, but it falls to those claiming they exist to show something like evidence first. A bloke trying to sell invisible gold doesn't count as evidence of anything more than human greed and gullibillity- and I already believe in those.


Among the aspects of my skills as a chemist is that I can get people to pay me money to do analyses. Why should I waste my rather expensive time on things that are known not to make sense like (here we go again) the missing 5% of stuff that's not missing?

Is non detectable gold what the Emperor's new clothes were made of?
Slightly more seriously; if the gold has some magic property that means it doesn't behave like gold, how do you make any use of it? After all- you can't sell non-detectable gold to a scrap metal merchant.
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[*] posted on 5-2-2009 at 12:47


Vlad on thing is that there is just to much evidence surmounted against hudsons claims.

I just as you was very intrieged when I first heard of this year ago because think of the possibilitys a room temperature superfluid/superconductor would have. But the one thing is you can not let bias get in the way of proper scientific methods and just as many others bias has clouded there judgement on this subject yours to is getting in the way of proper logic.

Wether hudson created this out of sheer tretchury or because he failed to understand basic principles of science will probly never be determined.

If you think about it he has had the 'patent' for over a decade now and the industry for room temperature superconductors is at a huge peak yet there has been no legitimate lab's that have confirmed his theory.
Now this is not to say that no one has tryed it but a chemist will probably be reluctant to notify anyone that he was going to attempt this until he showed any kind of results.Since no one has come forward with any results other then failers the on can only logicaly assume that this will not work.

I have also seen disscussion where it was brought up that his patent dosnt even exist! He applied for a patent but in his own words "it was declined because it contained 'sensitive material'" or in other words he failed to provide even the slightest threed of proof for his discovery.

When you look for a motive of why he would concoct a story such as this you find that his farm lands soil was of such a poor nature that only after treating it with tons of expensive chemicals and fertilizers he could still only use 1/3 of his land per year. This leads me to believe that he created this story to make claim that his worthless land was loaded up with gold and highly rare and highly reactive platinum group metals.

All in all logic can only tell someone that this is a story and nothing more although there is one thing that is mentioned that intrieges me a little bit, when he stated that he was testing the original sample he stated that an accurate measurment could not be taken because the sample changed in weight as the temperature changed. He denoted this as a change in mass of the amount of platinum saying that it gained mass as the sample was cooled and lost mass as the sample was heated which to me shows that he didnt know much of anything about how platinum metals work and he never took into account any hydrogen absorbing abilitys of the platinum group metals. This to me shows that he may have done some test on some kind of samples but he was just to inexperianced to every come to a proper conclusion as to what the samples contained.

~Sedit
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[*] posted on 5-2-2009 at 16:12


Wake me up when this thread is over.



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[*] posted on 5-2-2009 at 17:54


Your such a dork
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[*] posted on 5-2-2009 at 21:44


Ouch ouch ouch Sedit Sedit Sedit English English English :( :( :(



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Sauron
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[*] posted on 5-2-2009 at 23:42


There's more hard science in GHOSTBUSTERS than in David Hudson's frauds or this thread.

The man is a montebank.




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[*] posted on 6-2-2009 at 04:02


Quote:
All in all logic can only tell someone that this is a story and nothing more although there is one thing that is mentioned that intrieges me a little bit, when he stated that he was testing the original sample he stated that an accurate measurment could not be taken because the sample changed in weight as the temperature changed. He denoted this as a change in mass of the amount of platinum saying that it gained mass as the sample was cooled and lost mass as the sample was heated which to me shows that he didnt know much of anything about how platinum metals work and he never took into account any hydrogen absorbing abilitys of the platinum group metals. This to me shows that he may have done some test on some kind of samples but he was just to inexperianced to every come to a proper conclusion as to what the samples contained.


I heard of palladium's hydrogen absorbtion ability. It's interesting your point of view as I haven't thought of this either.

I agree that it looks like a fraud because of lack of proper science behind it, like references and everything. It's also hardly reproducable.
I however remain convinced the material is something worth checking out. There is a similar material I know how to make (I can't post the method however) that is related to monoatomic gold and ORMUS, is very easy to make, and shows unusual characteristics as well. It's called Red Gold and when I mention it's made electrochemically from gold wire and some salts I already hear claims of it being a gold colloid or nanocluster, however it's not like that apparently. According to the person who developed the method for producing the substance - an experienced chemical engineer - the red gold are gold diatoms. Gold has three valence electrons. The gold diatoms are triple bonded (to each other) gold atoms formed electochemically (it doesn't seem to work by standard chemistry) that are inert, red colored, and do not display characteristics of a colloid. In the engineer's words:
Quote:
The best physical support for the existence of diatoms I have seen so far is the fact that diatoms carry no surface charge. As some of you probably know, dispersed metal particles in a metal/water colloid always carry a surface charge. This can be shown by the fact that metal/water colloids are destabilized by a high or low pH. It is also shown by the fact that the suspended metal particles will migrate to a charged electrode. This is called electrophoresis. Both effects are caused by the fact that electrons in metals will migrate to the surface of a particle containing 3 or more metal atoms. The diatomic materials and the conjoined materials do not exhibit either property. In freshly formed materials, the suspension will show no change at any pH from 1 to 12 and there is no particle migration in an electric field. Thus, I feel I can safely conclude that the diatomics have no surface charge, which also implies that they are no longer metallic.

I added aqua regia to the freshly made Red Gold, and no apparent reaction could be seen either. Yet the substance is made from pure gold wire and some very basic salts with such a simple chemistry that rules out the formation of a complex gold salt.

[Edited on 6-2-2009 by Vlad]
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[*] posted on 6-2-2009 at 04:07


Now where there is the apparent link with David Hudson's ORMEs, is that the Red Gold apparently forms an oily substance that is very volatile. This same oily substance can be made from gold metal in other ways, and when dried, it becomes a white powder. This is conjecture, but the dried white powder shows similar characteristics to Hudson's white powder. So it could be safe to assume it's the same substance made by different ways. Hudson just popularized his version of research about it.
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[*] posted on 6-2-2009 at 04:09


Quote:
Originally posted by unionised
Slightly more seriously; if the gold has some magic property that means it doesn't behave like gold, how do you make any use of it? After all- you can't sell non-detectable gold to a scrap metal merchant.


It's a healing substance, and when ingested, causes intense dreams and sometimes enhances virility.

[Edited on 6-2-2009 by Vlad]
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[*] posted on 6-2-2009 at 04:19


Oh come ON. This is a SCIENCE forum, cut the magical newage sewage please! Gold is not in PDR. Have you done controlled double blinded clinical trials on those enhanced dreams and virility claims? Pfizer have made a lot of gelt from enhacing virility but not by peddling gold, but raking it in.

What a total crock of dung!

Are we sure these are not the Red Mercury hucksters back under another handle?

I keep waiting for the flying saucers, the hidden cities inside the magnetic poles, the chariots of the gods, the Illuminati, the Rosicrucians, the Church of Scientology, Anton what's his name, Charles Fort, Seth Speaks, Alistair Crowley, the Theosophists, and all the other dreary derivative rehashed psuedomystical claptrap that is beneath our contempt to surface in this thread. How about homeopathic medicine? Amish hex signs? The Maleus Malificarum? I best you really get off on Dan Brown.

I best my posts have an aura of evil.

[Edited on 6-2-2009 by Sauron]




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[*] posted on 6-2-2009 at 04:22


The enhanced dreaming is a fact. Many people have noticed this. Many. I can agree with claims about enhancing virility being dubious but it definitely does enhance dreaming.
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[*] posted on 6-2-2009 at 05:13


That is what we scientists call anecdotal, which is a technical term for bullshit.

It is most certainly not a fact and has not been demonstrated by the standard means for such things, the double blinded controlled clinical trial.

Till it is, stow it with the rest of the superstitious effluvia.




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[*] posted on 6-2-2009 at 05:13


Internal events like dreaming are, amazingly, subjective and can be driven by no more than the mind set of the person.

Experienced opiate users can get a rush from injecting saline, or just sliding the needle of an empty syringe into their skin, or even just holding the syrine. These action cause objectively measurable physiological changes in the subject, changes that match those from an actual injection.

Double blind tests, monitoring of the subject, and similar means are needed to verify result; elsewise you're just dealing with anecdotal remarks from interested parties.
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[*] posted on 6-2-2009 at 05:52


@Vlad: I have a fair amount of patience for people who want to pursue fringe science. There have been plenty of incidents in history when new ideas come in completely from the outside. The bulk of results in science have not come this way, though, and if you want to pursue this, you should expect that you may well never discover anything relative to the outside world. You might push discussion forward within a circle of enthusiasts. This board does not contain those enthusiasts. I'm certainly not one.
Quote:
Originally posted by Vlad
If you are so certain it's all BS why don't you try to reproduce it just to show it's all wrong and that it's just a nanocluster.
Now here's your very basic and fundamental flaw. Existence of something, whether it be a mathematical theorem or a lab technique, is something that must be demonstrated by its proponent. not_important said this quite well already:
Quote:
Originally posted by not_important
Proponents of ORMUS are the ones who must present sufficient evidence to call into question the established theories.
Vlad, you apparently do not understand that the burden of demonstration is on you, not us. If you want someone else to try to disprove this, you will first have to show some reason why anyone else should care. You have not done this. You've made a few uncontrolled preparations. The photos you posted, while interesting, by your own admission have not been reproduced. That's certainly not enough work to convince anybody of anything, nor to persuade them to spend their time on your project.
Quote:
Originally posted by Vlad
The enhanced dreaming is a fact. Many people have noticed this. Many. I can agree with claims about enhancing virility being dubious but it definitely does enhance dreaming.
You assert this without naming whose dreaming is enhanced. Is it yours? Or are these reports you are forwarding? Let's establish one thing first. No one outside the circle of enthusiasts cares about second- or third-hand reports. There's too much actual charlatanism about for this to be credible. So please just stop quoting people. If the dreaming is yours, fine, but you've done plenty of appeals to authorities whose authority no one here acknowledges.

I do suspect that you might be able to convince some people here to learn how to become a good enough lab chemist to get to something like a reproducible result. But if you want anybody to take any interest in that, you'll have to first acknowledge that you're working on an outsider theory and second act accordingly. This means that you should never insist that anybody take interest your theoretical musings. Note that I've already switched into the no-third-party-authority mode. As far as I'm concerned, these theories are yours (as held, not as invented), and I don't particularly care to engage them.

So, here's an action item for you. Start a web site and keep your lab notebook on it. Do not use a blog, because you can't organize random postings well enough for anybody to spend time slogging through them. Since it's reproducibility everyone else is looking for, you'll need to separate your work into two: one separate from issues of subjectivity and one with subjective reports. It's not that subjectivity can't be a proper mode of effort, it's that its far, far harder to do anything with, and most others will have no interest in it.

Then, expect to do lots and lots and lots of procedures, first seeking some kind of reproducibility, eventually yielding some kind of fully-reproducible baseline procedure. Then you can switch to an exploratory mode, each time varying exactly one parameter from the baseline, either material or apparatus. Do each more than once so that you get reproducible positive or negative results. You can then expand your list of reproducible positives and continue to expand the list varying exactly one parameter at a time. Yes, this is exactly combinatorial explosion of a parameter space. It is also exactly the kind of care you're going to require if you are to convince someone else to care enough to attempt to reproduce your results.
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[*] posted on 6-2-2009 at 05:57


Quote:
Originally posted by Vlad
The enhanced dreaming is a fact. Many people have noticed this. Many.
Time for some practice. It's not a fact. It's an assertion. It's your assertion. You were appealing to authorities not recognized here. You were wasting your breath here, not in any existential sense of waste, but in a purely pragmatic sense, in that your words did not convince anybody of your claim. Indeed, they were damaging to you, since you have illustrated an absence of respect for other people's beliefs, which contradict yours.
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[*] posted on 6-2-2009 at 10:01


Well put w.f---the coup de grace, at last. . .
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[*] posted on 6-2-2009 at 10:17


I doubt the dinosaur will realize it is dead for some time. Brain is too small and too remote from the site of the impalement just administered.

Somewhat ironic, impaling a Vlad, isn' it?

[Edited on 7-2-2009 by Sauron]




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[*] posted on 9-2-2009 at 09:22


This is my first time posting here, and as this topic is of significant importance I'll start here. First and foremost there are other ways of creating materials that are commonly referred to as Monatomic, Diatomic, M-state, ORMUS, Nano Colloidal, or High Spin State. As this topic deals mainly with the chemical approach, and you seem to have so much doubt about the validity of results (mainly due to Hudson's credibility), some might choose to try a different route. I will cover several things that appear not to have been mentioned, and hopefully these will provide some additional points of reference. I don't work for anyone, and I'm not selling anything, this is simply a subject of interest to me. I'm a research scientist and entrepreneur so I tend to examine topical studies that fall "outside the box" on a regular basis. This will be a little long winded, but it needs to be said. Let's get started.

There is a scholarly work that goes into the multifaceted areas of this topic, and it was penned by one Sir Laurence Gardner. The work is titled "Lost Secrets of The Sacred Ark". As the name implies there is a generous amount of speculation regarding the legendary Ark of he Covenant from biblical notoriety, but the book also contains a wealth of information from multiple sources regarding our materials in question.

Within the work, David Hudson is of course mentioned and to some of the posts that appeared to be a personal attack, his background is explained a little better in the book. While Mr. Hudson might not have been as forthcoming about the errors in his experiments, he was hardly a "poor dirt farmer". Poor dirt farmers don't have the access to the capital which his facilities required, nor do they have state level connections which authorized his initial soil experiments. You can of course assume whatever you wish, I don't know if the facts support it.

Hudson's work aside, there is a wealth or information regarding the use of these materials in archeological, anthropological, and historical sources. Sir Gardner's afore mentioned work highlights a number of these sources, and the scholarly references are all in the appendix. That alone is worth the price of the book, I assure you.

Of interesting note would be the finding of these materials in tombs across Greater Egypt, or what could be more accurately called Khemet. An archeological expedition that almost failed was launched to ascertain the location of what was believed to be a manufacturing facility for Monatomics in the Sinai Peninsula. The archeologist's claims were widely discounted as the accepted dogma of Egyptology said that nothing Egyptian would have existed that far from the accepted kingdom. Needless to say, the expedition was a success, and a temple/facility was located at the top of Mt. Horeb. Within the temple were found metallurgical tools, most notable a very large crucible. The crucible appeared to have been scorched by extremely intense flame however, there was no residue of carbon, and no visible flame source like a coal or fire pit. Under the flagstones on which the crucible rested was found a large storage basin. This contained at least a metric ton of what appeared to be a silicate material. Some of this material as well as the artifacts that the expedition found were shipped to the British Museum, and they are still housed at this location. The materials later turned out to be our infamous monatomics. The historical records indicate that this material was ingested by nobility, and the priest craft. Do some homework, see if you find it valid.

The reason for that long-winded background information is so that you might wonder about the production method that was used by these Egyptians, as well as some of the Alchemists throughout history. There is at least one company in Utah that uses Arc Electricity to make nanocollodial gold as well as other nanocollodial noble group metals. I have not yet had an opportunity to experiment with them, but I plan to this summer. There is an peer reviewed article on www.zptech.net that discusses the application of nanocollodial gold in cancer treatments. The results were impressive.

I personally know 2 scientists who used this material in conjunction with Silica Hydride to bring a terminal cancer patient from a feeding tube, to being home within 2 weeks. He walked back into the hospital one month after starting the combination, in remission. There were other factors involved that create study bias, but the main factor was the materials mentions and an alkalizing diet. This is reproducible, and has been.

Understanding cellular resonance in relation to disease is the demonstration model for explaining how the materials work. Georges Lahovsky's work on cellular resonance which led to his creation of the Multiple Wave Oscillator can be found in "The Secret of Life" and "The Waves That Heal". Much like holding two identical tuning forks and striking one while holding it next to the other, the unstruck fork will begin to resonate the frequency of the resonating fork. Your cellular communication systems work in the same way. The individual cell can experience only so much toxicity until is is damaged and no longer communicates properly. This is the nature of disease. I would also mention Dr. Royal Raymond Rife's work on resonant frequencies and pathogen elimination.

To address the individual who scoffed at the importance of mindset and intentions in experimentation, I would mention the "Observer Effect" which relates to a particle's behavior when it is under observation. You can find this data is most collegiate physics books in the quantum section. Things behave differently when observed, it's a fact. I'm sure that statement rings true with each and every one of you. Just think about someone watching you do any task. I mentioned this because not all forms of energy are as overt as say electricity, some have a more subtle character. The radiations of thought would be one of these energies.

In summation, chemical means might not be the most effective in trying to produce these materials. Applied frequencies, Arc Flame of a certain temp, and the right mindset would probably go a lot further in accomplishing your goals. Quite a bit of this area remains unexplored and unexplained. There is definitely something to all of this and I wish you all the best in your explorations. Look to certain sea salts (Celtic and Dead Sea) if you wish the continue chemical means of experimentation. The planet has done some of the work for you by pre-engineering base materials. Most importantly, unplug yourself from a consensus reality and do your own investigations. That's the nature of real science.

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[*] posted on 9-2-2009 at 09:42


I also forgot to mention Masura Emoto's work with thought forms affecting water structure. While is has been polularized and some of the work taken out of context, his work would indeed support the position that thought energies have an effect on water structure. This is evidence of a subtle energy or radiant energy at work. By this logic, when somenone is performing experiments with these materials, they may be responding to thought forms. Hence the importance of intention. There is a significant amount of peer reviewed material in this area, I suggest some research in the Psychology, Parapsychology, and Quantum Physics journals. You could also look into Mr. Emoto's work, for which he recieved peer awards and international noteriety. Make observations. Support claims with evidence. If you can't find it in someone else's work, try to find it on your own. If not found, potentially false. If found, patent the hell out of it! Basic Science.

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[*] posted on 9-2-2009 at 11:00


Quote:
Originally posted by Innerspace

This is my first time posting here, and as this topic is of significant importance I'll start here.

Welcome to SciMad, Innerspace.
Because you're new, I read both posts fully.
However, I think Sauron's description of the topic still holds.
The very gullible might be moved to pause, but anyone here with a full scientific bent will see your posts as representing more of the tedious pseudo-science we've already endured.
You sound. BTW, more entrepreneurial than scientific.
And you cannot be both, since the disciplines are mutually exclusive.
Pseudo-science often excites the masses in a faddish fashion but anyone with an interest in real science should be above all that.
I would, with respect, put this stuff on a par with creationism.
It has no place here. . .

Incidentally, when referring to a member of the peerage it is customary always to use the forename rather than the surname.

[Edited on 9-2-2009 by hissingnoise]
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[*] posted on 9-2-2009 at 13:09
@Innerspace


If you're not Vlad under a new account name, my apologies, but you are illustrating all the problems with the posts made under that account.
Quote:
Originally posted by Innerspace
Do some homework, see if you find it valid.[...]
Most importantly, unplug yourself from a consensus reality and do your own investigations. That's the nature of real science.[...]
Recall. You have the burden of evidence of encouraging someone else to spend their time on your project. Everyone else has their own preexisting interests. It's not like there's a whole lot of free-floating project time around here ready to be harvested.
Quote:
There is an peer reviewed article on www.zptech.net that discusses the application of nanocollodial gold in cancer treatments.[...]
At what URL? More generally, you make claims of the form "there are studies". If you want anybody to read them, don't expect them to do even a whit of research more than clicking on a link. As before, they don't care. It's you're responsibility to convince them to care, and since your interest is polluted with pseudoscience charlatans, you have a higher bar than ordinary.
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To address the individual who scoffed at the importance of mindset and intentions in experimentation, I would mention the "Observer Effect" which relates to a particle's behavior when it is under observation. You can find this data is most collegiate physics books in the quantum section. Things behave differently when observed, it's a fact. I'm sure that statement rings true with each and every one of you.
You are completely mistaken. This rings completely false with me. The speed of decoherence present in a macroscopic object such as a human body is just enormous. (If you don't know what decoherence in quantum mechanics is, go find out.) To claim that there's enough coherence in such a body requires a burden of proof that's on you. My default assumption is that it's not there. There's some circumstantial evidence that biological systems have something like an anomalous kind of coherence; see Luca Turin's book on the sense of smell, but his idea only require such an anomaly at the level of the δ-structure of a membrane protein cluster. To extend this to an entire organism requires evidence.

I'll mention only in passing that you're also appealing to authorities that have no authority on this board, and also in passing only that promoting out-of-mainstream theories without evidence or experiment is a waste of your time.
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