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Author: Subject: Druken Aga Challenge (DAC) #3 - Closed (but open to discussion)
aga
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[*] posted on 24-11-2014 at 16:53


At this time of beer, i actually fail to understand the Question.

I'll read it properly tomorrow.

The Objective is to make a Useful amount, like in a bottle, which you can use some, and there's still some left in the bottle, and not just a drop.

Oh. While we're at it, any process that will take half a lifetime to make 100ml will be a bit pointless too, as by the time the process is verified, we'll all be dead( 0.5 lifetime * 2 = 1 lifetime).

c+=7;




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Zyklon-A
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[*] posted on 24-11-2014 at 17:46


OK, I'll explain in terms of liquor: If one beer can = one vodka shot = two happiness points (probably wrong) and if the challenge was to produce two beer cans (four happiness points), then would it be OK to produce two shots of vodka (also four happiness points) and not have to dilute it to the piss tasting liquid slugged by 41% of Americans on a simi-regular basis.;)
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Little_Ghost_again
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[*] posted on 24-11-2014 at 17:51


Quote: Originally posted by Zyklon-A  
OK, I'll explain in terms of liquor: If one beer can = one vodka shot = two happiness points (probably wrong) and if the challenge was to produce two beer cans (four happiness points), then would it be OK to produce two shots of vodka (also four happiness points) and not have to dilute it to the piss tasting liquid slugged by 41% of Americans on a simi-regular basis.;)


Yeah I would think so because you could dilute the vodka to beer levels easy enough.




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Amos
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[*] posted on 25-11-2014 at 13:46


Crude potassium nitrate can be produced from the soluble portion of wood ashes (which contains potassium carbonate) and the calcium that can be crystallized, as has been said earlier, from fermented urine or dung. Then you can calcine it with the proper minerals in a retort or use homemade sulfuric produced from sulfide ores and distill out the old fashioned aqua fortis used by alchemists.



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[*] posted on 25-11-2014 at 14:27


We're going all alchemy here. I never interpreted it like that.
I thought the objective was convenience rather than low tech. Correct me if I am wrong, but I don't see any prohibition against nitrates per se -- provided they may be found at the supermarket and are not pure or concentrated. I assumed that pot-plant fertiliser from aisle 19 would be allowed.

Aga, care to clarify?
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Little_Ghost_again
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[*] posted on 25-11-2014 at 15:08


Quote: Originally posted by j_sum1  
We're going all alchemy here. I never interpreted it like that.
I thought the objective was convenience rather than low tech. Correct me if I am wrong, but I don't see any prohibition against nitrates per se -- provided they may be found at the supermarket and are not pure or concentrated. I assumed that pot-plant fertiliser from aisle 19 would be allowed.

Aga, care to clarify?

If it was then so would be sulphur from the garden center or whatever, I think the point being just because you can get X fertilizer from Y shop in Z isle dosnt mean everyone can. I thought the point of the challenge was to come up with a method that makes it possible for just about anyone. Not every region or country allows nitrates in fertilizers as such.
The prize is pretty high so I would expect the challenge to be just that, a challenge! As soon as you start using nitrates etc in fertilizers you get into a situation where someone somewhere wont be able to get it. I see it more like a desert island situation, get creative use whats around you or easy to get. 250 Eruo is worth some effort surely?
As has been said pissing in a paint can will get you nitrates, ok not everyone has a pot to piss in, but they could use a compost pile.
Just my 1 Euro. Actually I think its pretty clever challenge, its a real test of ingenuity. I can get the nitrates bit but some the other parts are proving a bit tricky.




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aga
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[*] posted on 25-11-2014 at 15:23


Lo-tech will work better.
Just-buy-some-hi-tech will not work at all.

Sulphur is generally pretty pure, so No, sulphur from a shop, or travelling gypsy, is not allowed.

There *are* other ways than to just distill a nitrate with conc sulphuric, or zap the air for a while.

Seeking to make a nitrate and also sulphuric from stuff other than Ebay is a definite sign of Stale Thinking, as if that's the Only Way.

Think Outside what you already know.

Apply what you know to HNO3 and walk backwards from the lab, and out into the real world, with eyes still focussed on the HNO3.

The objective is what it is, so if you make super pure nitric from a car tyre and a bullfrog, it must be diluted to piss-weak strength for the 100ml photo (or you can cheat for the photo and nobody would ever know)




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[*] posted on 25-11-2014 at 15:44


Ok. I stand clarified.

[scurries off to buy some floor cleaner and some high protein skim milk powder]
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[*] posted on 25-11-2014 at 15:53


Quote: Originally posted by j_sum1  
[scurries off to buy some floor cleaner and some high protein skim milk powder]

I stand in Awe of expert Chefs who can make a delicious meal from almost Any ingredients.

Michelin Stars were originally awarded to Chefs who could make Boef Bouginon from old car tyres.

1 Star was a bit rubbery.




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[*] posted on 25-11-2014 at 16:27


Quote: Originally posted by aga  
Quote: Originally posted by j_sum1  
[scurries off to buy some floor cleaner and some high protein skim milk powder]

I stand in Awe of expert Chefs who can make a delicious meal from almost Any ingredients.

Michelin Stars were originally awarded to Chefs who could make Boef Bouginon from old car tyres.

1 Star was a bit rubbery.

Definitely 1 star!
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[*] posted on 26-11-2014 at 14:40


Nobody found the French method yet ?



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[*] posted on 26-11-2014 at 15:30


Quote: Originally posted by aga  
Nobody found the French method yet ?

I see you have found a practical application for your wife's horses.

Me, I think I will use bullshit and follow this procedure.

I'm sure to win this one!
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Zyklon-A
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[*] posted on 28-11-2014 at 10:57


Oh, duh! *Fixed* nitrogen from air, and energy from wood. Why didn't I think of this?!
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[*] posted on 28-11-2014 at 18:49


You realize the french method takes roughly a year...



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[*] posted on 28-11-2014 at 21:40


Quote: Originally posted by APO  
You realize the french method takes roughly a year...

Yeah. I think I will forgo the biological waste products route and instead focus on commonly available supermarket products. It is going to be a bit of a gamble because OTC compounds vary so much from place to place.
Still, the stated goal is to have a simple procedure starting from items that are readily available to most people worldwide. That goal interests me.
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[*] posted on 29-11-2014 at 07:58


If I buy fertilizer that contains nitrate salts, but is contaminated with other stuff (urea, ammonium sulfate, potassium salts, etc.), can I still use it for this challenge? The fertilizer I'm thinking of is about 40% ammonium nitrate.

Also, I think I have found a way that, though inefficient, should be remarkably easy.

[Edited on 29-11-2014 by Cheddite Cheese]




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[*] posted on 29-11-2014 at 18:57


Aga says no nitrates period.



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[*] posted on 29-11-2014 at 19:52


In most parts of Oz, OTC fertilisers are restricted to 7.8% nitrates anyway. Fertiliser just isn't that practical a source for us here.
I have some other thoughts in mind but I still need to do some reading. It might not be practical for me anyway. But I will be interested in the submissions when they come in. Bound to be some clever ideas.
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[*] posted on 29-11-2014 at 20:43


Think about it this way: If it were possible to make nitric acid out of table salt, one could always have nitric acid when needed. Table salt will never be restricted or banned in any (normal) country of the world. It has so many uses in the home that it is available in any store. It is also cheap. Those are the ideas.

One might have access to nitrate-based fertilizer, but what if one's store stops selling it? Availability of nitrates varies widely from one locality/country to the next. Urea is, as far as I know, the default fertilizer that is available everywhere that ammonia and nitrates aren't. It is gradually replacing nitrates in various applications. One's instant cold pack might be ammonium nitrate one month, and then something else the next.

I think the idea is to improve the availability of nitric acid to the common amateur chemist. This can be done by developing a usable method that uses common OTC materials that anyone can practically acquire.

As seen from aga's original post, the idea isn't to make large quantities, or to make very concentrated acid. As such, the ideas that result from the competition will (hopefully) be of limited use to someone who wants to do damage to something or someone else.

Personally, I use nitric acid to partially oxidize various alcohols, as part of my work in synthesizing imidazolium-based ionic liquids. A liter of acid every week would basically equate to $100's of dollars worth of ILs. These ILs are generally unavailable unless one does business with Fisher.
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[*] posted on 29-11-2014 at 22:10


Quote: Originally posted by j_sum1  
In most parts of Oz, OTC fertilisers are restricted to 7.8% nitrates anyway.

[derail]
Since when? 3 years ago I walked into a fertiliser/agricultural shop in sydney and bought a 25kg sack of KNO3, no questions asked. Have things changed since then?
[/derail]
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[*] posted on 29-11-2014 at 22:37


I looked at a packet of fertilizer in the supermarket today. It had two separate labels on it depending on sale location. 7.8% for all states except WA. 20.2% Nitrates if sold in WA. I did not see any other products that had higher nitrate content. (Nor do I recall seeing any recently.) I inferred that there must be some regulatory restrictions to have duplicate labels like that. It might be a supermarket thing. (I would expect something a bit different for an agricultural supplier but that would definitely be outside the scope of this challenge.)
I am sure someone more knowledgeable will be around to correct my assumption.
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[*] posted on 30-11-2014 at 11:27


Does guano from the largest urban bat colony in the world count as OTC?
I'm only 4 miles from it and the soil under it is surely enriched with nitrates...
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[*] posted on 30-11-2014 at 11:29


Only if someone gives it you over a counter. Picking it up yourself just isn't OTC!
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[*] posted on 30-11-2014 at 11:46


Regarding the fact that some people can only obtain fertilizers with a low nitrate content (7.8%), as long as the fertilizers can be purified, that's not really a problem.

I think nitrate salts are pretty much the only viable starting material, since the Birkeland-Eyde and Ostwald processes are out of the picture. Ammonium salts and urea are the only other common sources of fixed nitrogen, and bacteria are the only low-resource way to get those to nitrates (chemical oxidation of ammonia requires catalysts that don't meet the challenge requirements).

I'll give away my process, if anyone else wants to try it:

Calcium nitrate decomposes when strongly heated, and one of the products is nitrogen dioxide gas. Using lime made from limestone where I live, and ammonium nitrate from fertilizer, I can get calcium nitrate. I then can heat it until it decomposes and absorb the gas in water. Using sulfuric acid and distilling would be more efficient, but this method doesn't require any acids at all.

[Edited on 30-11-2014 by Cheddite Cheese]




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[*] posted on 30-11-2014 at 12:03


Quote: Originally posted by cpman  
Does guano from the largest urban bat colony in the world count as OTC?
I'm only 4 miles from it and the soil under it is surely enriched with nitrates...
Hmm... good idea... I might have to get down there too if it's allowed.
It would be nice if it counts, although it is somewhat of a "local specialty" being as most cities don't have bridges full of bats. Aga?

[Edited on 11-30-2014 by zts16]




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